BoxRec

candyslim wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 18:30 G'night my friend Got to get my beauty sleep.

L8R!

candyslim wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 18:06

kbackup408 wrote: ↑01 Feb 2019, 07:40 Lost interest in Joshua, his team are too difficult make a deal with wake me up when it is Joshua vs Fury/Wilder fight week, cheers!

Too difficult to make a deal with?

Team Joshua have offered 40% to both Wilder and Fury. How much is that $30m?, $40? more than that? Nobody knows but it's probably nearer to ten times than five times what either of them have ever earned in one fight, maybe more than either have earned in their entire ferkin careers.

On what planet is that not a fantastic offer?

Joshua has done all the heavy lifting. He holds the belts, has done the unifying, regenerated interest in the division and single-handedly increased purses for all the top heavyweights.

Now I have been accused of being a Wilder-hater so let's take Dillian Whyte who I'm a massive fan of because of his warrior attitude. Whyte wants 40% same as has been offered to Wilder and Fury. How TF does Dillian work out he's worth 40%, he doesn't have a belt, not even an invisible one like Fury?

It's a question of risk v reward. Dillian will fight anyone and would back himself to beat most of the top ten. He has worked very hard and taken big risks to get a very high rating from all the governing bodies, and establish himself as a UK PPV star in his own right.

He's not scared of Joshua but he knows most good judges are expecting him to lose and there's a reason for that. If he loses to Joshua he stands to lose a lot more than just the fight, which is why he would rather choose the road of less risk less reward. I believe this is the thinking of Wilder and Fury too.

Miller has everything to gain and little to lose which is why he is more financially amenable .

You broke that down passionately pal but I am sticking with Hearn being difficult to negotiate with (it is his job, fairplay)

If you watched the recent Kugan and Whyte clip at the 02 he confirmed in the rematch (if whyte was to win) there was no reverse split... what in the holy lords name is that?

Reverse split? Presumably you're suggesting that if Whyte were to accept say 25% and beat Joshua, Hearn should have negotiated into the rematch clause that this time he gets 75% and Joshua 25%. Have I got that right?

Why in the world would they agree to something like that, they don't need Dillian, AJ has beaten him already, he's not even yet anyone's mandatory challenger, the UK fans are lukewarm about a second fight? This reverse split idea isn't a standard thing, it's what they were offering Deontay to try to entice the bugger into the ring. It's not happening. Would he take 50/50? Maybe if the fight were stateside, I'm not sure.

The crazy thing is, you have to expect Fury to be better next time, Wilder? ... he's not good at learning new tricks. He probably feels he has a better chance of beating Fury, but the fact is he could be giving up his belt for a fraction of what the AJ fight would pay him. Then what is Hearn likely to be offering him?

That's not passion speaking. That is what I see as simple logic. You may disagree in which case I'm listening.

Lackeos wrote: ↑30 Jan 2019, 01:35 Miller, Whyte, and Pulev have all done way beyond enough to earn title shots, and Kownacki is not far behind either. Since Pulev is a legitimately good boxer, and since his prime will probably end soon, I'd like him to get his title shot before his scalp is no longer with anything. Luis Ortiz has not earned a repeat title shot, but he would obviously be a formidable challenger, and doesn't have much time left.

So anyways, I voted for Pulev.

I would agree with everything except the Ortiz bit. Luis Ortiz has been avoided like the plague in recent years. Everyone says ''ah, theres no money in Ortiz no one knows who he is.'' The only reason that is, is because no one wants to fight him in the first place. Why doesnt Hearn or any other big promoter use him even for their lesser Heavyweights as a test, because he'd spank them all, then he has to be put in with all the top boys. AJ, Whyte, Pulev, Fury, Povetkin. He gave Wilder all kinds of issues and if he had his HEALTH (not fitness) in that fight he wouldn't have had to blow his load in the first 6 rounds and go for the KO. He was foaming at the mouth before he got to the ring for that fight. I dont like Ortiz overly as a guy but no one can say hes been given the opportunities that other bums have been given

Hearn did use him and he put on two abysmal fights.

SugarArmour7 wrote: ↑03 Feb 2019, 06:28

Lackeos wrote: ↑30 Jan 2019, 01:35 Miller, Whyte, and Pulev have all done way beyond enough to earn title shots, and Kownacki is not far behind either. Since Pulev is a legitimately good boxer, and since his prime will probably end soon, I'd like him to get his title shot before his scalp is no longer with anything. Luis Ortiz has not earned a repeat title shot, but he would obviously be a formidable challenger, and doesn't have much time left.

So anyways, I voted for Pulev.

I would agree with everything except the Ortiz bit. Luis Ortiz has been avoided like the plague in recent years. Everyone says ''ah, theres no money in Ortiz no one knows who he is.'' The only reason that is, is because no one wants to fight him in the first place. Why doesnt Hearn or any other big promoter use him even for their lesser Heavyweights as a test, because he'd spank them all, then he has to be put in with all the top boys. AJ, Whyte, Pulev, Fury, Povetkin. He gave Wilder all kinds of issues and if he had his HEALTH (not fitness) in that fight he wouldn't have had to blow his load in the first 6 rounds and go for the KO. He was foaming at the mouth before he got to the ring for that fight. I dont like Ortiz overly as a guy but no one can say hes been given the opportunities that other bums have been given

Hearn took on Ortiz in a two fight deal, and he failed to impress in either fight. When you're taken 7 rounds by Dave Allen, you gotta ask the question as to what he's worth. There is no value in Ortiz in any shape or form. He's not that entertaining to watch, doesn't speak a word of English so can't sell the fight, and there's no ranking points / belts to gain from fighting him. He's too late in his career, too many drug bans, and no real direction.

candyslim wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 18:06

kbackup408 wrote: ↑01 Feb 2019, 07:40 Lost interest in Joshua, his team are too difficult make a deal with wake me up when it is Joshua vs Fury/Wilder fight week, cheers!

Too difficult to make a deal with?

Team Joshua have offered 40% to both Wilder and Fury. How much is that $30m?, $40? more than that? Nobody knows but it's probably nearer to ten times than five times what either of them have ever earned in one fight, maybe more than either have earned in their entire ferkin careers.

On what planet is that not a fantastic offer?

Joshua has done all the heavy lifting. He holds the belts, has done the unifying, regenerated interest in the division and single-handedly increased purses for all the top heavyweights.

Now I have been accused of being a Wilder-hater so let's take Dillian Whyte who I'm a massive fan of because of his warrior attitude. Whyte wants 40% same as has been offered to Wilder and Fury. How TF does Dillian work out he's worth 40%, he doesn't have a belt, not even an invisible one like Fury?

It's a question of risk v reward. Dillian will fight anyone and would back himself to beat most of the top ten. He has worked very hard and taken big risks to get a very high rating from all the governing bodies, and establish himself as a UK PPV star in his own right.

He's not scared of Joshua but he knows most good judges are expecting him to lose and there's a reason for that. If he loses to Joshua he stands to lose a lot more than just the fight, which is why he would rather choose the road of less risk less reward. I believe this is the thinking of Wilder and Fury too.

Miller has everything to gain and little to lose which is why he is more financially amenable .

Superbly articulated.

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑03 Feb 2019, 07:59

candyslim wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 18:06

kbackup408 wrote: ↑01 Feb 2019, 07:40 Lost interest in Joshua, his team are too difficult make a deal with wake me up when it is Joshua vs Fury/Wilder fight week, cheers!

Too difficult to make a deal with?

Team Joshua have offered 40% to both Wilder and Fury. How much is that $30m?, $40? more than that? Nobody knows but it's probably nearer to ten times than five times what either of them have ever earned in one fight, maybe more than either have earned in their entire ferkin careers.

On what planet is that not a fantastic offer?

Joshua has done all the heavy lifting. He holds the belts, has done the unifying, regenerated interest in the division and single-handedly increased purses for all the top heavyweights.

Now I have been accused of being a Wilder-hater so let's take Dillian Whyte who I'm a massive fan of because of his warrior attitude. Whyte wants 40% same as has been offered to Wilder and Fury. How TF does Dillian work out he's worth 40%, he doesn't have a belt, not even an invisible one like Fury?

It's a question of risk v reward. Dillian will fight anyone and would back himself to beat most of the top ten. He has worked very hard and taken big risks to get a very high rating from all the governing bodies, and establish himself as a UK PPV star in his own right.

He's not scared of Joshua but he knows most good judges are expecting him to lose and there's a reason for that. If he loses to Joshua he stands to lose a lot more than just the fight, which is why he would rather choose the road of less risk less reward. I believe this is the thinking of Wilder and Fury too.

Miller has everything to gain and little to lose which is why he is more financially amenable .

Superbly articulated.

Yes, Miller is now in a great (undeserved) position to cash in.

Sure, he's going to get thumped, but for for that kind of money its a privilege. Its high time these guys, especially bums like Miller appreciated just how lucky they are to be fighting for such purses.

Before they all get too greedy they should remember that Joshua (and Hearn) created this money bubble around the heavyweights.

Talking of money, what happened to Fury's promises of donating his £8m purse from the Wilder fight to the poor and homeless?

Lackeos wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 05:32

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 05:08 Whilst Pulev has managed just one win against a top 20 opponent in the last 5 years, the rest of the division has moved on, thus shifting Pulev into obscurity. You may well get away with sitting on a ranking for 5 years in this sport, but don't sit here pretending to justify it.

Here you go. Learn something about boxing. Make up your opinion after you're informed.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=226280&p=5043312

*Pasting the post in case the link doesn't auto-scroll to the correct post*

The key wins of other title challengers at the time of their first shot (I've left out a few like Briggs and Rahman whose best wins were like decades old):
Luis Ortiz: Jennings, Malik Scott, past-it Tony Thompson, Kayode
Ustinov: past-it David Tua, Monte Barrett
Washington: draw with Mansour, past-it Chambers
Szpilka: Adamek
Duhaupas: MD over Charr
Molina: Tony Grano
Charles Martin: Tom Dallas, pre-prime Dawejko
Takam: Tony Thompson, draw with Mike Perez
Hughie Fury: Andriy Rudenko
Razvan Cojanu: literally nobody
Parker: Takam, Dimitrenko
Ruiz Jr.: Joe Hanks, Tor Hamer, corpse of Liakhovich
Breazeale: Mansour (and mostly because Mansour didn't have a real gum shield)
Anthony Joshua: unproven Dillian Whyte (borderline top 50 at the time), Gary Cornish
Wilder: Malik Scott
Stiverne: Arreola
Lucas Browne: Richard Towers, corpse of James Toney, Andriy Rudenko
Tyson Fury: Chisora, Cunningham, Hammer
Jennings: Mike Perez, Szpilka, Fedosov, past-it Liakhovich
Glazkov: Cunningham (gift), Adamek
Pulev: Tony Thompson, Ustinov, Dimitrenko
Alex Leapai: Denis Boytsov
Chisora: Sam Sexton
Manuel Charr: Taras Bidenko
Odlanier Solis: Ray Austin, Monte Barret
Albert Sosnowski: draw with Pianeta
Francesco Pianeta: past-it Oliver McCall, pre-prime Duhaupas, draw with Sosnowski
Wach: Tye Fields, pre-prime Christian Hammer
Andrzej Wawrzyk: Denis Bakhtov, Devin Vargas
Kevin Johnson: Devin Vargas
Cedric Boswell: past-it Oliver McCall, Roman Greenberg
Povetkin: Chambers, past-it Chris Byrd
Arreola: Jameel McCline, Chazz Witherspoon

So, by my count, Pulev's post-Wlad run is better than about 27 of those first-time title challengers and worse or about the same as the other 6. That makes his second run better than about 82% of first-time title challengers.

I really would not use that list as a justification for how to get a title shot. This if anything demonstrates the shambles of the division, and how champions are protected. We are discussing who is worthy of a world title shot. Pulev has done next to nothing compared to the other contenders.

Kubrat Pulev fought Wladamir Klitschko in 2014. That is approaching 5 years ago. In that time, he has had one significant win, and that was against an under-motivated and under-performing Dereck Chisora.

Let's just take into account what Dillian Whyte has done in the same period of time. In that same period of time, Dillian Whyte has fought 17 times. In that 17 fights he fought the likes of:

• Anthony Joshua [Lost]

• Dereck Chisora twice (the second version of Chisora was arguably the best Chisora we have seen for some time)

• Robert Helenius

• Undefeated world champion Lucas Browne

• Ex-WBO World Champion Jeseph Parker

I return back to my original point. Pulev's distinct lack of activity against relevant opposition has moved him away from relevance. I'm happy to see that Pulev is scheduled to fight Helenius, but in all honesty he needs to really fight someone top 15 to cement his position as a contender.

Thomastearns wrote: ↑03 Feb 2019, 08:19

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑03 Feb 2019, 07:59

candyslim wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 18:06

kbackup408 wrote: ↑01 Feb 2019, 07:40 Lost interest in Joshua, his team are too difficult make a deal with wake me up when it is Joshua vs Fury/Wilder fight week, cheers!

Too difficult to make a deal with?

Team Joshua have offered 40% to both Wilder and Fury. How much is that $30m?, $40? more than that? Nobody knows but it's probably nearer to ten times than five times what either of them have ever earned in one fight, maybe more than either have earned in their entire ferkin careers.

On what planet is that not a fantastic offer?

Joshua has done all the heavy lifting. He holds the belts, has done the unifying, regenerated interest in the division and single-handedly increased purses for all the top heavyweights.

Now I have been accused of being a Wilder-hater so let's take Dillian Whyte who I'm a massive fan of because of his warrior attitude. Whyte wants 40% same as has been offered to Wilder and Fury. How TF does Dillian work out he's worth 40%, he doesn't have a belt, not even an invisible one like Fury?

It's a question of risk v reward. Dillian will fight anyone and would back himself to beat most of the top ten. He has worked very hard and taken big risks to get a very high rating from all the governing bodies, and establish himself as a UK PPV star in his own right.

He's not scared of Joshua but he knows most good judges are expecting him to lose and there's a reason for that. If he loses to Joshua he stands to lose a lot more than just the fight, which is why he would rather choose the road of less risk less reward. I believe this is the thinking of Wilder and Fury too.

Miller has everything to gain and little to lose which is why he is more financially amenable .

Superbly articulated.

Yes, Miller is now in a great (undeserved) position to cash in.

Sure, he's going to get thumped, but for for that kind of money its a privilege. Its high time these guys, especially bums like Miller appreciated just how lucky they are to be fighting for such purses.

Before they all get too greedy they should remember that Joshua (and Hearn) created this money bubble around the heavyweights.

Talking of money, what happened to Fury's promises of donating his £8m purse from the Wilder fight to the poor and homeless?

Yeah 100% that did not happen.

I suspect that they are offering Miller a much lower purse than the likes of Wilder, Fury and Whyte. Hence how this fight is made so readily. Miller has very little to offer as the B side so would probably cash in for a million or two.

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑03 Feb 2019, 08:23

Lackeos wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 05:32

Rob3_142 wrote: ↑02 Feb 2019, 05:08 Whilst Pulev has managed just one win against a top 20 opponent in the last 5 years, the rest of the division has moved on, thus shifting Pulev into obscurity. You may well get away with sitting on a ranking for 5 years in this sport, but don't sit here pretending to justify it.

Here you go. Learn something about boxing. Make up your opinion after you're informed.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=226280&p=5043312

*Pasting the post in case the link doesn't auto-scroll to the correct post*

The key wins of other title challengers at the time of their first shot (I've left out a few like Briggs and Rahman whose best wins were like decades old):
Luis Ortiz: Jennings, Malik Scott, past-it Tony Thompson, Kayode
Ustinov: past-it David Tua, Monte Barrett
Washington: draw with Mansour, past-it Chambers
Szpilka: Adamek
Duhaupas: MD over Charr
Molina: Tony Grano
Charles Martin: Tom Dallas, pre-prime Dawejko
Takam: Tony Thompson, draw with Mike Perez
Hughie Fury: Andriy Rudenko
Razvan Cojanu: literally nobody
Parker: Takam, Dimitrenko
Ruiz Jr.: Joe Hanks, Tor Hamer, corpse of Liakhovich
Breazeale: Mansour (and mostly because Mansour didn't have a real gum shield)
Anthony Joshua: unproven Dillian Whyte (borderline top 50 at the time), Gary Cornish
Wilder: Malik Scott
Stiverne: Arreola
Lucas Browne: Richard Towers, corpse of James Toney, Andriy Rudenko
Tyson Fury: Chisora, Cunningham, Hammer
Jennings: Mike Perez, Szpilka, Fedosov, past-it Liakhovich
Glazkov: Cunningham (gift), Adamek
Pulev: Tony Thompson, Ustinov, Dimitrenko
Alex Leapai: Denis Boytsov
Chisora: Sam Sexton
Manuel Charr: Taras Bidenko
Odlanier Solis: Ray Austin, Monte Barret
Albert Sosnowski: draw with Pianeta
Francesco Pianeta: past-it Oliver McCall, pre-prime Duhaupas, draw with Sosnowski
Wach: Tye Fields, pre-prime Christian Hammer
Andrzej Wawrzyk: Denis Bakhtov, Devin Vargas
Kevin Johnson: Devin Vargas
Cedric Boswell: past-it Oliver McCall, Roman Greenberg
Povetkin: Chambers, past-it Chris Byrd
Arreola: Jameel McCline, Chazz Witherspoon

So, by my count, Pulev's post-Wlad run is better than about 27 of those first-time title challengers and worse or about the same as the other 6. That makes his second run better than about 82% of first-time title challengers.

I really would not use that list as a justification for how to get a title shot. This if anything demonstrates the shambles of the division, and how champions are protected. We are discussing who is worthy of a world title shot. Pulev has done next to nothing compared to the other contenders.

Kubrat Pulev fought Wladamir Klitschko in 2014. That is approaching 5 years ago. In that time, he has had one significant win, and that was against an under-motivated and under-performing Dereck Chisora.

Let's just take into account what Dillian Whyte has done in the same period of time. In that same period of time, Dillian Whyte has fought 17 times. In that 17 fights he fought the likes of:

• Anthony Joshua [Lost]

• Dereck Chisora twice (the second version of Chisora was arguably the best Chisora we have seen for some time)

• Robert Helenius

• Undefeated world champion Lucas Browne

• Ex-WBO World Champion Jeseph Parker

I return back to my original point. Pulev's distinct lack of activity against relevant opposition has moved him away from relevance. I'm happy to see that Pulev is scheduled to fight Helenius, but in all honesty he needs to really fight someone top 15 to cement his position as a contender.

Thanks Rob for the endorsement. I kind ofagree with both viewpoints on this (nice work with the list there Lackeos) in that demonstrates firstly what feeble qualifications most challengers needed to get their chance, secondly how Pulev is more deserving than most, and thirdly how far ahead of him is Dillian Whyte in terms of recent achievement.

Miller is now looking like a wrap (no, not a pork-wrap I mean in the movie sense i.e. a done deal) which is disappointing because he hasn't beaten anyone who could make a convincing case for being top 15 at the time he fought them. He should have beaten someone top ten before getting his shot.

Having said that this may be an easy fight for AJ or it could be one of the most dangerous opponents he could face. Which it is depends entirely on Jarrell's ability to absorb punishment. We know that he has shown good stamina and good workrate at the level at which he's fought, but against AJ he is going to get hit harder and more frequently. He may get broken up and stopped in about four rounds but if Joshua's punches bounce off him in the way that those of his previous opponents have done, then Joshua has a serious problem because Miller will keep coming, keep throwing punches, pressuring AJ and asking questions of his suspect gas tank.

If I were Eddie I'd be looking to sign Kownacki for AJ. It's a far easier fight and once AJ destroys him it removes Kownacki as a viable future option for Wilder. Kownacki is very probably on the 'approved opponent list' for Wilder but I very much doubt that Miller is.