BoxRec

elmersalsa wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 16:47

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 15:41
You are comparing two situations that were very different.

It helped Mayweather a great deal to fight later. He took very little punishment in his fights and Pacquio took a lot. It was the fight in boxing for quite a while. When it finally happened, Pacquio was way past. He had stopped anyone in five years.

When Leonard fought Hagler, yes Hagler was not 100%. But he was closer to his best than Leonard. Leonard had one fight in five years. That is hardly ideal for a huge fight.
It's ridiculous to think that Leonard sitting out for 5 years it would help his chances.

In over 130 years of boxing, give me another example of a fighter being off for three years and beating a great fighter in his first fight back. Don't duck it like you usually do. Give some examples.

Marvelous was slipping by the time he fought Sugar Ray. As a matter of fact, Marvelous wasn't fighting much after 1983. Marvelous had:

2 fights in 1984
1 fight in 1985
1 fight in 1986

That win of Sugar Ray against Marvelous wasn't all that impressive. And it showed by the performance of both fighters. That you want to give Sugar Ray credit for going the distance?, fine. It wasn't a big achievement like other boxers have done. That fight should have been made in 1982 or 1983. Not 1987. It was too late for a lot of people.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 16:49

dr_devious wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 15:54 Hagler was a superbly conditioned boxer who really didn't have any problems with stamina. And he wouldn't have need to go 12 rounds let alone 15 to dispatch Leonard in 1982.

Exactly. Marvelous in 1982 would have crushed Sugar Ray bad.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 15:43

dr_devious wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 15:22

Codswallop

How so? When was the last time on this Forum (other than Leonard-Hagler) that anyone has talked about the size of the ring for the fight?

Where is the evidence that had they fought in 1982 that Hagler would have the advantage if it went past 12 rounds?
Hagler only did it once. Did he look good during the last few rounds against the legendary Vito Antuofermo?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 22:47

elmersalsa wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 16:47

Marvelous was slipping by the time he fought Sugar Ray. As a matter of fact, Marvelous wasn't fighting much after 1983. Marvelous had:

2 fights in 1984
1 fight in 1985
1 fight in 1986

That win of Sugar Ray against Marvelous wasn't all that impressive. And it showed by the performance of both fighters. That you want to give Sugar Ray credit for going the distance?, fine. It wasn't a big achievement like other boxers have done. That fight should have been made in 1982 or 1983. Not 1987. It was too late for a lot of people.

You didn't name another fighter who beat great fighter in their first after being off for 3 years. For the umpteenth time, you have ducked the question and went off one your inane tangents.

Leonard had no fights in 1986.
Leonard had no fights in 1985.

Hagler had three fights since Leonard had one.
Hagler had 9 fights to Leonard's one in the five years since Leonard's first retirement.
So yeah,Hagler had a gigantic edge. It was the main reason so many people said Hagler would win easily.

Saying that Leonard's win over Hagler wasn't all that impressive is idiotic.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑13 Jul 2019, 22:33

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 22:47

You didn't name another fighter who beat great fighter in their first after being off for 3 years. For the umpteenth time, you have ducked the question and went off one your inane tangents.

Leonard had no fights in 1986.
Leonard had no fights in 1985.

Hagler had three fights since Leonard had one.
Hagler had 9 fights to Leonard's one in the five years since Leonard's first retirement.
So yeah,Hagler had a gigantic edge. It was the main reason so many people said Hagler would win easily.

Saying that Leonard's win over Hagler wasn't all that impressive is idiotic.

Is idiotic to think that Marvelous was in his prime like you think he was. On that night, against Sugar Ray, I could name about 10 guys that would have beaten Marvelous that night.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑13 Jul 2019, 22:33

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 22:47

You didn't name another fighter who beat great fighter in their first after being off for 3 years. For the umpteenth time, you have ducked the question and went off one your inane tangents.

Leonard had no fights in 1986.
Leonard had no fights in 1985.

Hagler had three fights since Leonard had one.
Hagler had 9 fights to Leonard's one in the five years since Leonard's first retirement.
So yeah,Hagler had a gigantic edge. It was the main reason so many people said Hagler would win easily.

Saying that Leonard's win over Hagler wasn't all that impressive is idiotic.

Is idiotic to think that Marvelous was in his prime like you think he was. On that night, against Sugar Ray, I could name about 10 guys that would have beaten Marvelous that night.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑13 Jul 2019, 22:42 I didn't say Hagler was in prime. I said that he was closer to hisprime than Leonard was to his. Yet Leonard still beat him.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 00:16

elmersalsa wrote: ↑13 Jul 2019, 22:33
Is idiotic to think that Marvelous was in his prime like you think he was. On that night, against Sugar Ray, I could name about 10 guys that would have beaten Marvelous that night.

Really? I'd like to hear the 10.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 10:46

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 00:16

Really? I'd like to hear the 10.

Marvelous was slow of foot and hands that night. He was missing shots by a mile even when he had Sugar Ray on the corner, he was missing badly. Sugar Ray ain't no Nicolino Locche or Pernell Whitaker to make Marvelous miss like that. Marvelous was ready to be taken by any middleweight that was hungry to win the crown. Compare Marvelous of 1982 or '83 with the one with Leonard and you can see a extraordinary amount of slip up. Maybe he was rusty. Maybe it was time for him to be taken. But, Marvelous' performance THAT NIGHT was the worst of his middleweight title fights that I have ever seen him. He was not excellent. Not at all.

The 10 guys that would have beaten him THAT NIGHT in my view:

1. Gene Fullmer would have beaten him. His hand speed was very underrated. He could rough up Marvelous of that night on the inside. He was rough and tough, like Vito Antuofermo, but better.

2. Sugar Ray Robinson of the early '50s decade would have won by a landslide. His speed of hands and feet would have caused Marvelous to miss lots of punches. Marvelous didn't have it that night with Leonard. He was way off on his timing.

3. Carlos Monzon would have beaten him much easier. He would have won by cuts stoppage.

4. Dick Tiger by decision. That Marvelous didn't had anything to indicate that he was in full form. I think he knew it was his last fight.

5. Thomas Hearns probably would have stopped him by an early cuts stoppage or decision. Hearns had a better chance in '87 than in '85 or earlier in the decade.

6. Bernard Hopkins would have decisioned him outright. A complete fighter that destroyed Felix "Tito" Trinidad in spectacular fashion. He could beat that Marvelous of that night with Sugar Ray.

7. James Toney by decision against that Marvelous. Toney was a sensational middleweight at his very best.

8. Emile Griffith's inside game would have beaten Marvelous that night.

9. Marcel Cerdan's pressure would have beaten that Marvelous

10. Joey Giardello with his boxing style, just like Sugar Ray Leonard did to Marvelous, would have beaten him on that night.

11. Roy Jones Jr's speed would have given Marvelous more problems that night than Leonard did. Marvelous would have had a tough time to catch him that night. He was way off in his timing.

12. Mike McCallum would have beaten him, too. The one that had that chess match with James Toney in a draw would have beaten Marvelous of that fight with Leonard.

13. Jake LaMotta? The one that beat Sugar Ray Robinson and Holman Williams and Marcel Cerdan has a chance.

14. Iran Barkley would have beaten him by decision in a rough and tough scrap. Marvelous could have been taken by The Blade. That is the only night that I could see Barkley beating Marvelous. Any other night before 1987, Marvelous wins.

15. Roberto Duran. Believe or not, I can see Duran beating that version of Marvelous. Marvelous was way off and slow. Like I have said, it was the worst performance by Marvelous of his 15-fight title reign. Especially, if the fight is 12 rounds, I could have seen Roberto making a greater history of his career.

14. Charley Burley's speed would have confused Marvelous. Burley was a complete boxer. He was like Roy Jones Jr, but better. On April 6, 1987 if Burley was around instead of the 1940s decade, Burley would have get the crown.



The others like Harry Greb, Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walker, Tony Zale l can't tell. There's not enough footage of them for me to judge their style. Like it or not, Marvelous wasn't the same fighter in that Sugar Ray fight. And it showed. He was missing punches at close range, and was slow of hands and foot, which was very uncharacteristic of Marvelous. Very rare to see him fight like that. Maybe it was his time to be taken that night.

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 14:25 a statement like that should have been about the current crop of fighters. Even still, like all of your lists, that is a joke.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 14:50

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 14:25 a statement like that should have been about the current crop of fighters. Even still, like all of your lists, that is a joke.

Is not a joke. Marvelous knew that he didn't had it any longer. Since 1985, he was fighting one fight per year. It wasn't about glory days any more, but about the money. The big paydays that he thought he rightly deserved. He was not going to miss an opportunity of fighting Sugar Ray by losing to a bum. He made $20 million dollars against Leonard. He got what he wanted.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 10:46

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 00:16

Really? I'd like to hear the 10.

Marvelous was slow of foot and hands that night. He was missing shots by a mile even when he had Sugar Ray on the corner, he was missing badly. Sugar Ray ain't no Nicolino Locche or Pernell Whitaker to make Marvelous miss like that. Marvelous was ready to be taken by any middleweight that was hungry to win the crown. Compare Marvelous of 1982 or '83 with the one with Leonard and you can see a extraordinary amount of slip up. Maybe he was rusty. Maybe it was time for him to be taken. But, Marvelous' performance THAT NIGHT was the worst of his middleweight title fights that I have ever seen him. He was not excellent. Not at all.

The 10 guys that would have beaten him THAT NIGHT in my view:

1. Gene Fullmer would have beaten him. His hand speed was very underrated. He could rough up Marvelous of that night on the inside. He was rough and tough, like Vito Antuofermo, but better.

2. Sugar Ray Robinson of the early '50s decade would have won by a landslide. His speed of hands and feet would have caused Marvelous to miss lots of punches. Marvelous didn't have it that night with Leonard. He was way off on his timing.

3. Carlos Monzon would have beaten him much easier. He would have won by cuts stoppage.

4. Dick Tiger by decision. That Marvelous didn't had anything to indicate that he was in full form. I think he knew it was his last fight.

5. Thomas Hearns probably would have stopped him by an early cuts stoppage or decision. Hearns had a better chance in '87 than in '85 or earlier in the decade.

6. Bernard Hopkins would have decisioned him outright. A complete fighter that destroyed Felix "Tito" Trinidad in spectacular fashion. He could beat that Marvelous of that night with Sugar Ray.

7. James Toney by decision against that Marvelous. Toney was a sensational middleweight at his very best.

8. Emile Griffith's inside game would have beaten Marvelous that night.

9. Marcel Cerdan's pressure would have beaten that Marvelous

10. Joey Giardello with his boxing style, just like Sugar Ray Leonard did to Marvelous, would have beaten him on that night.

11. Roy Jones Jr's speed would have given Marvelous more problems that night than Leonard did. Marvelous would have had a tough time to catch him that night. He was way off in his timing.

12. Mike McCallum would have beaten him, too. The one that had that chess match with James Toney in a draw would have beaten Marvelous of that fight with Leonard.

13. Jake LaMotta? The one that beat Sugar Ray Robinson and Holman Williams and Marcel Cerdan has a chance.

14. Iran Barkley would have beaten him by decision in a rough and tough scrap. Marvelous could have been taken by The Blade. That is the only night that I could see Barkley beating Marvelous. Any other night before 1987, Marvelous wins.

15. Roberto Duran. Believe or not, I can see Duran beating that version of Marvelous. Marvelous was way off and slow. Like I have said, it was the worst performance by Marvelous of his 15-fight title reign. Especially, if the fight is 12 rounds, I could have seen Roberto making a greater history of his career.

14. Charley Burley's speed would have confused Marvelous. Burley was a complete boxer. He was like Roy Jones Jr, but better. On April 6, 1987 if Burley was around instead of the 1940s decade, Burley would have get the crown.



The others like Harry Greb, Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walker, Tony Zale l can't tell. There's not enough footage of them for me to judge their style. Like it or not, Marvelous wasn't the same fighter in that Sugar Ray fight. And it showed. He was missing punches at close range, and was slow of hands and foot, which was very uncharacteristic of Marvelous. Very rare to see him fight like that. Maybe it was his time to be taken that night.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 22:50

elmersalsa wrote: ↑12 Jul 2019, 16:49

Exactly. Marvelous in 1982 would have crushed Sugar Ray bad.

Hagler was a superbly trained athlete in 1982? What was Leonard during his prime?

How did Hagler look in the late rounds against Antuofermo in their first fight? He looked awful.

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 14:40

elmersalsa wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 10:46

Marvelous was slow of foot and hands that night. He was missing shots by a mile even when he had Sugar Ray on the corner, he was missing badly. Sugar Ray ain't no Nicolino Locche or Pernell Whitaker to make Marvelous miss like that. Marvelous was ready to be taken by any middleweight that was hungry to win the crown. Compare Marvelous of 1982 or '83 with the one with Leonard and you can see a extraordinary amount of slip up. Maybe he was rusty. Maybe it was time for him to be taken. But, Marvelous' performance THAT NIGHT was the worst of his middleweight title fights that I have ever seen him. He was not excellent. Not at all.

The 10 guys that would have beaten him THAT NIGHT in my view:

1. Gene Fullmer would have beaten him. His hand speed was very underrated. He could rough up Marvelous of that night on the inside. He was rough and tough, like Vito Antuofermo, but better.

2. Sugar Ray Robinson of the early '50s decade would have won by a landslide. His speed of hands and feet would have caused Marvelous to miss lots of punches. Marvelous didn't have it that night with Leonard. He was way off on his timing.

3. Carlos Monzon would have beaten him much easier. He would have won by cuts stoppage.

4. Dick Tiger by decision. That Marvelous didn't had anything to indicate that he was in full form. I think he knew it was his last fight.

5. Thomas Hearns probably would have stopped him by an early cuts stoppage or decision. Hearns had a better chance in '87 than in '85 or earlier in the decade.

6. Bernard Hopkins would have decisioned him outright. A complete fighter that destroyed Felix "Tito" Trinidad in spectacular fashion. He could beat that Marvelous of that night with Sugar Ray.

7. James Toney by decision against that Marvelous. Toney was a sensational middleweight at his very best.

8. Emile Griffith's inside game would have beaten Marvelous that night.

9. Marcel Cerdan's pressure would have beaten that Marvelous

10. Joey Giardello with his boxing style, just like Sugar Ray Leonard did to Marvelous, would have beaten him on that night.

11. Roy Jones Jr's speed would have given Marvelous more problems that night than Leonard did. Marvelous would have had a tough time to catch him that night. He was way off in his timing.

12. Mike McCallum would have beaten him, too. The one that had that chess match with James Toney in a draw would have beaten Marvelous of that fight with Leonard.

13. Jake LaMotta? The one that beat Sugar Ray Robinson and Holman Williams and Marcel Cerdan has a chance.

14. Iran Barkley would have beaten him by decision in a rough and tough scrap. Marvelous could have been taken by The Blade. That is the only night that I could see Barkley beating Marvelous. Any other night before 1987, Marvelous wins.

15. Roberto Duran. Believe or not, I can see Duran beating that version of Marvelous. Marvelous was way off and slow. Like I have said, it was the worst performance by Marvelous of his 15-fight title reign. Especially, if the fight is 12 rounds, I could have seen Roberto making a greater history of his career.

14. Charley Burley's speed would have confused Marvelous. Burley was a complete boxer. He was like Roy Jones Jr, but better. On April 6, 1987 if Burley was around instead of the 1940s decade, Burley would have get the crown.



The others like Harry Greb, Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walker, Tony Zale l can't tell. There's not enough footage of them for me to judge their style. Like it or not, Marvelous wasn't the same fighter in that Sugar Ray fight. And it showed. He was missing punches at close range, and was slow of hands and foot, which was very uncharacteristic of Marvelous. Very rare to see him fight like that. Maybe it was his time to be taken that night.

Truly stunning post.

Syntax Error wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 01:02

elmersalsa wrote: ↑13 Jul 2019, 22:33
Is idiotic to think that Marvelous was in his prime like you think he was. On that night, against Sugar Ray, I could name about 10 guys that would have beaten Marvelous that night.

This sounds a bit revisionist to me.

Were you the one person on Earth who thought Leonard could win?

Hagler had clearly passed his prime; his speed had gone, hence why Leonard thought he could win, having openly admitted that, but Marvin was not shot and was still very formidable.

I'd be interested to know the 10 guys you thought could beat Hagler in April 1987?

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 15:14

elmersalsa wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 14:50

Is not a joke. Marvelous knew that he didn't had it any longer. Since 1985, he was fighting one fight per year. It wasn't about glory days any more, but about the money. The big paydays that he thought he rightly deserved. He was not going to miss an opportunity of fighting Sugar Ray by losing to a bum. He made $20 million dollars against Leonard. He got what he wanted.

You're always a joke.

Syntax Error wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 16:05

elmersalsa wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 10:46

Marvelous was slow of foot and hands that night. He was missing shots by a mile even when he had Sugar Ray on the corner, he was missing badly. Sugar Ray ain't no Nicolino Locche or Pernell Whitaker to make Marvelous miss like that. Marvelous was ready to be taken by any middleweight that was hungry to win the crown. Compare Marvelous of 1982 or '83 with the one with Leonard and you can see a extraordinary amount of slip up. Maybe he was rusty. Maybe it was time for him to be taken. But, Marvelous' performance THAT NIGHT was the worst of his middleweight title fights that I have ever seen him. He was not excellent. Not at all.

The 10 guys that would have beaten him THAT NIGHT in my view:

1. Gene Fullmer would have beaten him. His hand speed was very underrated. He could rough up Marvelous of that night on the inside. He was rough and tough, like Vito Antuofermo, but better.

2. Sugar Ray Robinson of the early '50s decade would have won by a landslide. His speed of hands and feet would have caused Marvelous to miss lots of punches. Marvelous didn't have it that night with Leonard. He was way off on his timing.

3. Carlos Monzon would have beaten him much easier. He would have won by cuts stoppage.

4. Dick Tiger by decision. That Marvelous didn't had anything to indicate that he was in full form. I think he knew it was his last fight.

5. Thomas Hearns probably would have stopped him by an early cuts stoppage or decision. Hearns had a better chance in '87 than in '85 or earlier in the decade.

6. Bernard Hopkins would have decisioned him outright. A complete fighter that destroyed Felix "Tito" Trinidad in spectacular fashion. He could beat that Marvelous of that night with Sugar Ray.

7. James Toney by decision against that Marvelous. Toney was a sensational middleweight at his very best.

8. Emile Griffith's inside game would have beaten Marvelous that night.

9. Marcel Cerdan's pressure would have beaten that Marvelous

10. Joey Giardello with his boxing style, just like Sugar Ray Leonard did to Marvelous, would have beaten him on that night.

11. Roy Jones Jr's speed would have given Marvelous more problems that night than Leonard did. Marvelous would have had a tough time to catch him that night. He was way off in his timing.

12. Mike McCallum would have beaten him, too. The one that had that chess match with James Toney in a draw would have beaten Marvelous of that fight with Leonard.

13. Jake LaMotta? The one that beat Sugar Ray Robinson and Holman Williams and Marcel Cerdan has a chance.

14. Iran Barkley would have beaten him by decision in a rough and tough scrap. Marvelous could have been taken by The Blade. That is the only night that I could see Barkley beating Marvelous. Any other night before 1987, Marvelous wins.

15. Roberto Duran. Believe or not, I can see Duran beating that version of Marvelous. Marvelous was way off and slow. Like I have said, it was the worst performance by Marvelous of his 15-fight title reign. Especially, if the fight is 12 rounds, I could have seen Roberto making a greater history of his career.

14. Charley Burley's speed would have confused Marvelous. Burley was a complete boxer. He was like Roy Jones Jr, but better. On April 6, 1987 if Burley was around instead of the 1940s decade, Burley would have get the crown.



The others like Harry Greb, Tiger Flowers, Mickey Walker, Tony Zale l can't tell. There's not enough footage of them for me to judge their style. Like it or not, Marvelous wasn't the same fighter in that Sugar Ray fight. And it showed. He was missing punches at close range, and was slow of hands and foot, which was very uncharacteristic of Marvelous. Very rare to see him fight like that. Maybe it was his time to be taken that night.

Cracking post Elmersalsa.

I must admit, when you said you could name 10 guys who would have beaten that Hagler, I thought nyou meant 10 guys who were around in 1987.

I'm largely in agreement with most of your picks; I'd only query Iran Barkley, but that's just nitpicking.

All or most of those guys would probably would have beaten him that night and you could probably add Michael Nunn, James Toney and Gennady Golovkin to that list too, but you shouldn't decry what Leonard did.

People talk as if Leonard had all the advantages and Hagler had none, but that's not the case.

In fairness, the topic has been done to death and back, so I'm not going to argue anymore about it.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 18:42

oogiebe wrote: ↑14 Jul 2019, 14:40

Truly stunning post.

Beyond absurd. Not his most stunning though.
Not sure if my favorite is that there isn't enough footage of Walker or that Hagler would lose to Iran Barkley. Too many honorable mentions to mention.