BoxRec

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑30 May 2019, 10:33 So who did Joe Louis beat who was as good as Holyfield? Because as best I can tell he doesn't have any comparable wins and neither do Jack Johnson, Larry Holmes, Rocky Marciano and many others.

Ha! So what is it you saw on Henry Akinwande's opponent list that made you think he could beat Riddick Bowe? Jeremy Williams?

As mentioned you have to take the whole career. Louis did not beat anyone in the Top 10. He did beat several fighters not that were top 15-25: Schmeling, Baer, Sharkey, and Walcott.

They don't count as much as a win over an Ali, a Foreman, a Johnson, etc. but they definitely count for something. A helluva lot more than beating Henry Akinwande.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑29 May 2019, 23:04 Another thing I find odd is that people are often bringing up the competition argument when it suits them and then disregarding it at other times. Most people today don't rate anyone Joe Louis beat in their top 10 and many don't have anyone he beat in their top 15. Yet so far I haven't seen anyone, even Onetimeonly argue Bowe should rate ahead of Joe Louis despite beating better opponents. I also don't see any of Marciano's victims in anyone's top 15 aside from a far-past it Louis.

Yes, you do think a lot of things are odd.
Again, Bowe's win over Holyfield was huge. It doesn't by itself trump everything that Joe Louis. This isn't rocket science. Figure it out.
You don't see any of Marciano's victims in the top 15?
On May 25th on the Charles-Walcott thread you said "I also think Charles is underrated at heavyweight these days, his accomplishments are arguably enough to put him in the lower top 10."
Stop the trolling.

- Ahhh, nothing like the annual Big Dummy lemming migration encircling their hero for their leap off the cliff into the sea of Fat Oafery.

Rock Newman was the best thing that ever happened for this retarded thug. Having worked around the retarded, Big Dummy is what we called functional retarded, prob 80 IQ, in that as long as someone was looking out for his interests, ie Newman, he could ostensibly function within the public sphere.

Rock was a fellow thug with a high IQ who secured him a $100 mil HBO deal whereby he became their house fighter. Who else could talk Eddie Futch into training such a fat oaf? Eddie was in his 80s and certainly didn't need all the grief that they caused and eventually left him. Let's remember the Tillery fight when Rock jumped on the ring Apron to hook the young kid by the neck over the ropes onto the concrete floor, an automatic DQ save the dirty underpinnings of this pair of thugs who instead secured the DQ for Tillery!

His KO of Field was the most blatant rabbit punch ever witnessed when he legit knocked Field face first into the ropes, sadly followed by the perfect straight right that concussed his cerebellum, another automatic DQ but for. Then the Buster Mathis Jr bout where he clocked Mathis on his knees. At least that commish had the decency to rule an NC.

Never defended his unified title, he has that in common with Lewis, famously binning his WBC and otherwise stripped of every title he owned. Never elected to the IBHOF during his first years of eligibility, prompting his ill fated comeback(Split Decision over Billy friggin Zumbrun whom the fans thought beat up Big Dummy.) Then he again languished on the IBHOF another few years until they finally wised up and realized the amount of thug business he'd bring in with his induction.

His best moment was thinking he was gonna blow out that scrawny 180 lber for the heavyweight Muy Thai title, instead getting the Ding Dongs kicked out of him, a classic to beat all classics.





Or was getting kicked out of Marine Boot Camp after a week of sleeping in and cleaning out the mess hall every day?

Or was it when he kidnapped his own wife and child? I guess he and Rock were on the outs by then, but he's still got his lemmings here ready to fall on their swords.

overhand_right wrote: ↑30 May 2019, 10:55 Ha! So what is it you saw on Henry Akinwande's opponent list that made you think he could beat Riddick Bowe? Jeremy Williams?

Good question, nobody comes to mind. But Golota's career sans the Bowe fights give no indication whatsoever he would pose any problems for Bowe. But that didn't turn out very well for Riddick did it?

Frankly, I would favor Bowe over Akinwande (probably odds of 4-1 or 5-1) but wouldn't be shocked by an upset especially if Bowe came in out of shape and overconfident as he sometimes did.

It's sometimes difficult for me to get a sense of how Bowe does against different types of fighters. For example he never faced the big punchers of his era. How does he respond to getting whacked by Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, David Tua, etc? It's a bit of a mystery given he never faced a big puncher.

Tyson and Tua really weren't in his era. Their careers have very little overlap. And no, he would not have lost to Akinwande.

Cooper, Hide and Gonzalez were all punchers. He would have fought Mercer and Lewis but both guys messed up by losing to massive underdogs. Holyfield may not be regarded as a puncher but anyone who knocks down Tyson, Mercer, Dokes and, yes, Bowe, as well as turning Foreman to jelly several times, obviously has some serious power in his fists. And Golota wasn't exactly a feather duster.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑31 May 2019, 10:56 Tyson and Tua really weren't in his era. Their careers have very little overlap. And no, he would not have lost to Akinwande.

He had ample opportunity to fight Tyson. They could have fought in 1991, 1995 or 1996. Twenty one months elapsed between Tyson's release from prison in March 1995 and the Golota rematch which marked the end of Bowe's career at top level. During that time Tyson fought Peter McNeely, Buster Mathis jr., Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno, and Evander Holyfield.

I think 1991 may have actually been Bowe's peak, he consistently came into fights in good shape whereas in subsequent years his conditioning started to suffer. With Tua there is less overlap. The fight only would have made sense in 1996 following the win over Ruiz.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 May 2019, 11:13 Much has been said about Bowe over the years that really isn't accurate.

Agree that he should have been had a better career; at lest he should have been at the top of his game for longer.

His pre-Holyfield career always gets swept away. For an up and coming fighter, he fought some good competition. Better than most from the 1990s on. Gets zero credit for it.

The whole he was afraid of Lewis school of thought that some people have is nonsense. Often the Olympic fight is used as proof. But if you actually watch the their Olympic fight, you will see that the stoppage was a total joke. There was absolutely no reason for it to be stopped. Bowe was not hurt at all.
It's also often overlooked that Bowe did actually sign to fight Lewis at one time. The fight never happened because of Lewis losing to McCall.

The second Holyfield fight (his only loss) never really get analyzed. He fought a great fight; and easily could have got the decision. You almost never hear anyone mention that.

The Golota fights- the Holy Grail for anti-Bowe fans. Yes, he looked awful at times in those fights. However, you can't just disregard the fouls. That was part of the reason that he looked bad. If he had a weak chin he gets stopped in that fight. If he doesn't have guts he doesn't hang in there.
The bottom line is that at his worst and being fouled repeatedly, he still won.

He could have gone down as one of the top heavyweights ever. Maybe even top 3. Obviously due to his own fault, he doesn't deserve to be rated that high.

However, some people just blow him off. When rating him, we should not take into consideration what he could have been. He should be rated on what he did do. Which was a lot more than most. He is in the Top 15-20 range all time.

I liked Bowe. Waaay more than Lewis. I felt his title defenses were weak, but you are right he fought MUCH better competition coming up. I NEVER have seen a fighter seemingly develop brain damage in one fight. After the first Golota fight he slurred badly in his interview. It was troubling. I think he beats Lewis by KO in his prime.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2019, 01:51 He had ample opportunity to fight Tyson. They could have fought in 1991, 1995 or 1996. Twenty one months elapsed between Tyson's release from prison in March 1995 and the Golota rematch which marked the end of Bowe's career at top level. During that time Tyson fought Peter McNeely, Buster Mathis jr., Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno, and Evander Holyfield.

I think 1991 may have actually been Bowe's peak, he consistently came into fights in good shape whereas in subsequent years his conditioning started to suffer. With Tua there is less overlap. The fight only would have made sense in 1996 following the win over Ruiz.

They were going to fight in 1991. Bowe was still developing as a fighter; he had less than 3 years of pro experience. Nobody was calling a Bowe-Tyson fight in 1991.

Tyson was not going to fight somebody like Bowe right when he came back after being in prison for so long. He eased into it-Fighting a stiff (McNeeley), a guy with some boxing ability and no punch (Mathis), and then a guy with some ability but obvious weaknesses (Bruno).
You are really just down to a short period in 1996 when Bowe-Tyson realistically could have had happened.

Brian Seneca wrote: ↑09 Jun 2019, 17:58 I liked Bowe. Waaay more than Lewis. I felt his title defenses were weak, but you are right he fought MUCH better competition coming up. I NEVER have seen a fighter seemingly develop brain damage in one fight. After the first Golota fight he slurred badly in his interview. It was troubling. I think he beats Lewis by KO in his prime.

Pretty much agree with what you said. I think Bowe-Lewis was a tossup.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Jun 2019, 10:44 They were going to fight in 1991. Bowe was still developing as a fighter; he had less than 3 years of pro experience. Nobody was calling a Bowe-Tyson fight in 1991.

Tyson was not going to fight somebody like Bowe right when he came back after being in prison for so long. He eased into it-Fighting a stiff (McNeeley), a guy with some boxing ability and no punch (Mathis), and then a guy with some ability but obvious weaknesses (Bruno).
You are really just down to a short period in 1996 when Bowe-Tyson realistically could have had happened.

Fighters develop at different rates and Bowe seems to have reached his peak relatively early in his career. I don't think he improved much at all post-1991 and that year he was consistently in shape while he subsequently began to have problems with conditioning. The Cooper blowout is one of his finest performances aside from the Holyfield fights. There may not have been massive demand for Bowe-Tyson in 1991 but the fight could have been made and would have generated considerable money.

As far as Tyson fighting easy opponents out of prison, that's what he chose to do but many fighters have chosen far more challenging assignments after long layoffs. Vitali Klitschko fought Samuel Peter, considered the number 3 heavyweight in the world off a 4-year layoff. Muhammad Ali fought Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena off a long layoff. Sugar Ray Leonard fought Marvin Hagler, etc.

Which Riddick Bowe fights have you actually seen?

He was still in the improving stage in 1991. He struggled with Tubbs and Biggs in 1991. You also have to look at the situation when it was actually happening. Fights are scheduled several months a head of time. Both fighters have to be available and want the fight.

If you are Mike Tyson, you probably think you can't make more fighting Ruddcok than Bowe. Ruddock was coming off big KO wins and was considered one of the top 5 heavyweights in the world. It made sense for Tyson to fight Ruddock.

If you are managing Bowe, you wouldn't put in him against Tyson at that point. It would not have even been for a title.

As for Tyson's comeback, sure Tyson could have fought the best heavyweight in the world after more than a four year layoff. That would have incredibly stupid for him to do. Fighting Samuel Peter ain't the same thing as fighting Riddick Bowe.
Peter wasn't even Frank Bruno's class.
Quarry and Bonavena were good fighters but they wen't in Bowe's class. There really is nothing else that compares to what Leonard pulled off.

After being out for over four years, your advice as Tyson's manger would be to fight Riddick Bowe being right away? Seriously?

Yes conceivably Bowe-Tyson could have happened. You can say that with a lot of fight. Joe Frazier and Larry Holmes could have happened also. However, it made little sense for it to have actually happened.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑30 May 2019, 11:07 As mentioned you have to take the whole career. Louis did not beat anyone in the Top 10. He did beat several fighters not that were top 15-25: Schmeling, Baer, Sharkey, and Walcott.

They don't count as much as a win over an Ali, a Foreman, a Johnson, etc. but they definitely count for something. A helluva lot more than beating Henry Akinwande.

Schmeling Baer Sharkey Walcott were all champions. Obviously Braddock from whom he took the title. Who was around during his long reign who was “avoided”? I am trying to think, guys like Sam Langford came before him. Ezzard Charles was a light heavyweight. I know he’d had his bum of the month but I can’t think of anyone who would give him a serious threat. I mean Ali’s first reign had no serious threats. Liston yes. Patterson too small past his best. Cleveland Williams was shot. London, Middleberger, Cooper, Foley, Terrell and Chavalo. When you are special the competition seems even less threatening. Same goes for Holmes early on. He did duck guys later. Still an all time great IMO.

Some of these guys actually good fighters but Louis and Ali made them look bad.

Louis defended the title against fighters of a wide range of ability. Obviously Schmeling and Walcott was great opponents. Buddy Baer, Bob Pastor, Lou Nova, Arturo Godoy, Abe Simon were good. Most of the rest were not.
I wouldn't say he "avoided anyone". He was the best in the world and would have beaten anyone out there. Having said that, there were some good fighters who he didn't fight (Elmer Ray, Turkey Thompson, Jimmy Bivins) who he didn't defend the title against; it was thought for a while that two black fighters would not draw well.

As for Ali-Liston was a great fighter. Patterson was small but a great fighter. He was coming off wins over Chuvalo and Machen which were two of the best of his career.
After that, Ernie Terrell while not fun to watch was a very good fighter. Folley and Williams were past their best but had something left. Chuvalo was a good fighter. Mildenberger and Cooper were decent. London was the worst and the only one that might belong in the "bum of the month" club that Louis fought.
There were guys that you could argue were as good as guys that got title shots. Bob Cleroux for example.

Cojimar 1946 wrote: ↑09 Jun 2019, 01:51 He had ample opportunity to fight Tyson. They could have fought in 1991, 1995 or 1996. Twenty one months elapsed between Tyson's release from prison in March 1995 and the Golota rematch which marked the end of Bowe's career at top level. During that time Tyson fought Peter McNeely, Buster Mathis jr., Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno, and Evander Holyfield.

They could not have fought in 1991. Tyson fought Razor Ruddock, who was both box office and the route back to the title. Ruddock was higher in the rankings than Riddick Bowe, and considered far more dangerous. Bowe just wasn't top level yet.

In 95 Tyson was the most valuable commodity in sports. King had expended great sums of money securing the three belts for him. The fact he was matched with McNeeley and Mathis shows you how cautiously King was handling him. DK had Bruno, Seldon and Botha lined up for him. He was not going to risk a gazillion dollars by putting Tyson in with Bowe. Had King offered Bowe & Newman Tyson they would have bit his hand off. In 96 Tyson vs Bowe was THE FIGHT. Tyson vs Foreman was the potentially the biggest fight ever, but Tyson vs Bowe was the boxing fan's fight. Bowe was reduced to fighting Golota because there was no one else to fight. Tyson, Foreman and Lewis wouldn't fight him, he had already KOd Holyfield, Morrison was medically retired, the alphabet soup bodies wouldn't rank him, what else could he do?

Really, your complaint isn't with Bowe here, it's with King.

overhand_right wrote: ↑31 May 2019, 14:11 Cooper, Hide and Gonzalez were all punchers. He would have fought Mercer and Lewis but both guys messed up by losing to massive underdogs. Holyfield may not be regarded as a puncher but anyone who knocks down Tyson, Mercer, Dokes and, yes, Bowe, as well as turning Foreman to jelly several times, obviously has some serious power in his fists. And Golota wasn't exactly a feather duster.

Holyfield was a pretty good puncher though he seemed to often kayo via attrition. However, Bowe's ability to take shots from Holyfield doesn't tell us much about how he would respond to getting hit by a Tyson or a Lewis or a Tua. Larry Holmes went 12 rounds with Holyfield but Tyson stopped him via brutal kayo and this was a Holmes several years younger than the one that Holyfield fought. Alex Stewart was also stopped early by Tyson despite extending Holyfield.

Bowe has some strong points to be sure, he has good stamina and he throws a lot of punches. He was consistently able to match or exceed Holyfield's punch output in their fights. However, I don't see him as having exceptional defensive skills.

By the same token, if Tyson can't stand up to Holyfield (a lesser version than Bowe fought) it's is very unlikely that he would been able to stand up to Bowe.
Unlikely that Lewis would be able to to take a lot of Bowe's shots either. We simply don't know who would have won between Lewis and Bowe.

I think Bowe was as good as it gets at his best......but it was a very short "best".

However.....He also seemed to pay a big price for his willingness to take a shot.....even if at the time he showed quick recovery abilities. He seems to have been quite affected by the shots he took, much more than others of his age/ experience level.

But at his best, (discounting his apparent vulnerability of the shots he had taken, ) I also think he likely could have beaten anyone. His 5 nanoseconds of peak abilities has few genuine competitors. But when your shelf life is that short, you have to lose points on an overall rating scale.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑24 Jun 2019, 10:50 By the same token, if Tyson can't stand up to Holyfield (a lesser version than Bowe fought) it's is very unlikely that he would been able to stand up to Bowe.
Unlikely that Lewis would be able to to take a lot of Bowe's shots either. We simply don't know who would have won between Lewis and Bowe.

Tyson faced some massive punchers and was never stopped in the early rounds. In order to stop Tyson Bowe would almost certainly need to take the fight into the late rounds but that's not going to happen if Bowe can't survive the early rounds. Given his unexceptional defense and the fact he was hurt by lesser punchers it's not at all clear he gets through the early rounds. A big part of ranking someone is how they do against different styles. With Bowe we only saw him against a tiny number of world-class opponents so we have little idea of how he deals with opponents of different skillsets and attributes.

I don't think Bowe's wins over Holyfield are enough to put him over guys with much deeper resumes. A reasonable ranking for him would be mid to high 20s (24-29).

Not sure what massive punchers you are talking about, but Bowe could punch as hard as anyone as Tyson ever beat.

If a past it Holyfield can stop Tyson late, then a prime Bowe can stop him earlier. Bowe's chin was at least as good as Tyson's and he had a lot more guts than Tyson. He would eat Tyson alive inside.

We have already talked about Bowe's resume as length. We saw him against fighters of different styles; you just choose to ignore them. He is certainly better than the 24-29 range.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑25 Jun 2019, 11:05 Not sure what massive punchers you are talking about, but Bowe could punch as hard as anyone as Tyson ever beat.

If a past it Holyfield can stop Tyson late, then a prime Bowe can stop him earlier. Bowe's chin was at least as good as Tyson's and he had a lot more guts than Tyson. He would eat Tyson alive inside.

We have already talked about Bowe's resume as length. We saw him against fighters of different styles; you just choose to ignore them. He is certainly better than the 24-29 range.

Bowe's chin wasn't tested against punchers of Tyson's caliber. There's no telling how he reacts to getting hit by Tyson. Tyson's chin held up well in the early rounds even against guys that could hit. The key would be whether Bowe could get through the early rounds. I think Bowe could stop Tyson but only via accumulation. He might be better served by fighting Tyson cautiously at least initially and clinching to disrupt Tyson's offense and then try to go on the offensive in the later rounds.

The only opponents Bowe fought I would classify as world-class (eg top 10 heavies) are Tony Tubbs, Evander Holyfield, and Andrew Golota. That's a tiny number of elite opponents compared to most guys you see in top 20 lists. That's what I mean when I say we didn't see him against different styles because he had such a small number of top-level opponents.

He beat a definitive all time top 10 heavy, arguably 3 times. That carries enough weight for top 20. Certainly miles more impressive than your beloved vitali beating nobody of note.

I think Bowe would have beat Lewis.
....But we will never know!

Onetimeonly wrote: ↑27 Jun 2019, 01:30 He beat a definitive all time top 10 heavy, arguably 3 times. That carries enough weight for top 20. Certainly miles more impressive than your beloved vitali beating nobody of note.

There are major flaws in his system of counting wins over Top 10 Opponents:

1. He doesn't factor in where in the Top 10 the opponent was. A win over a champion or #1 contender is the same as beating the #10 contender.

2. He doesn't take into account eras. Beating the # 5 guy in one might be vastly different than beating the #5 contender in another. He doesn't take that into account.

3. If you beat a guy just outside of the top 10, it doesn't count at all. Beating the #10 contender is usually not much different than beating a fringe contender. He gives Bowe no credit for beating several fringe contenders, even when he had not reached his prime yet himself.

4. He doesn't count rematches. So he only counts Holyfield as 1, not 3 times that Bowe fought a great fighter.

(Even in his own system, Hide should count since he was in the top 10 when Bowe beat him.)


As a result, Klitschko's wins over Corrie Sanders and Samuel Peter count just as much as Bowe's wins over Holyfield.

His system is ridiculous.