Will Daniel Dubois become the next great champion ?

[ValMar]

I opened this thread, because I think it is quite natural to predict (or try to predict) boxing future of a promising young fighter.
We do not have a crystal ball, of course, but it is acceptable to discuss about the fighters with a great potential (at least on the boxing forums).
I despise " the generals after a battle", the best example is Joshua's case. The majority of members of this forum had considered him as the second coming of Lennox Lewis. After only one loss, for "the majoirity of mentioned majority" he is an average, big, robotic and stiff HW, and they knew this fact long ago, but of course, they had never written a word about this, before the loss against Ruiz. Hypocrisy ? Yes !

In regard to being highly-excited about Daniel Dubois’ potential, I support you on this. He’s so young and has plenty of time on his side to master his trade.

I just think it’s just a tad premature to compare him to legends, such as Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and also the Klitschko brothers, since he’s already behind them in the proverbial learning curve at the equivalent age or stage of their careers.

To be fair, I only like to consider a fighters’ potential of being inducted in the Hall-of-Fame until they’re in the final few bouts of their career or have only recently retired.

I get your point about some people quickly jumping ship and changing their minds about a fighter as soon as they suffer an unexpected loss

Well done !

[Stanny Onis]

I can see him picking up a strap

Daniel Dubois has the potential to become a great champion. He's the best heavyweight under age 25.

he has great potential.

I'm pretty confident that, in the long run, Hughie and Dubois will be the most successful fighters of this age group.

I think Dubois can eventually become a legit HW champ in a few years

[oogiebe]

I can see him picking up a strap

Daniel Dubois has the potential to become a great champion. He's the best heavyweight under age 25.

he has great potential.

I'm pretty confident that, in the long run, Hughie and Dubois will be the most successful fighters of this age group.

I think Dubois can eventually become a legit HW champ in a few years

Hey Stanny, ever hear of Joe Louis?

[oogiebe]

Simply put. Too early to tell. But I don't see 'greatness' in his future at this time.

Bump. A bit EO'esque by me, but...

He still has time to develop and maybe if he's all healed up, this will be the best thing that's happened to his career. No shame in losing to JJ.

[bobcatbox]

Simply put. Too early to tell. But I don't see 'greatness' in his future at this time.

Bump. A bit EO'esque by me, but...

He still has time to develop and maybe if he's all healed up, this will be the best thing that's happened to his career. No shame in losing to JJ.

Agree that it has the quality of a good loss. Dub learned that he cannot steamroll good opposition. And learned (hopefully) to move his damn head.

Dub still has potential, but I hate to say it - I think the E word is appropriate tonight: exposed.

You put Dub in with Andersen or Hrg, and I think you get similar to what you got tonight. Throw him in with a true world class heavyweight (top ten) and you get worse than that.. I’m talking even Hunter could wear him out.

Dub is not a complete fighter. He lacks so much, and he doesn’t have the earth shattering power we believed he did to make up for it.

Dub will likely challenge for a world title in a couple years. Can’t say I think he’d win it. But he’ll be around. He’s been well-promoted so far, and you don’t throw that kind of exposure down the drain.

[Enlightened-One]

I opened this thread, because I think it is quite natural to predict (or try to predict) boxing future of a promising young fighter.
We do not have a crystal ball, of course, but it is acceptable to discuss about the fighters with a great potential (at least on the boxing forums).
I despise " the generals after a battle", the best example is Joshua's case. The majority of members of this forum had considered him as the second coming of Lennox Lewis. After only one loss, for "the majoirity of mentioned majority" he is an average, big, robotic and stiff HW, and they knew this fact long ago, but of course, they had never written a word about this, before the loss against Ruiz. Hypocrisy ? Yes !

In regard to being highly-excited about Daniel Dubois’ potential, I support you on this. He’s so young and has plenty of time on his side to master his trade.

I just think it’s just a tad premature to compare him to legends, such as Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and also the Klitschko brothers, since he’s already behind them in the proverbial learning curve at the equivalent age or stage of their careers.

To be fair, I only like to consider a fighters’ potential of being inducted in the Hall-of-Fame until they’re in the final few bouts of their career or have only recently retired.

I get your point about some people quickly jumping ship and changing their minds about a fighter as soon as they suffer an unexpected loss

Well done !

My post? My opinion about Dubois is consistent in nature.

[Enlightened-One]

SportPesa, Vbet, bet365 and betway have all consider Dubois as having an 83.3% (1/5) probability of victory, with Matchbook’s odds as great as 88.2% (2/15).

Pretty much all the betting websites consider Joyce as having less than 25% chance of scoring the upset, with $markets and bet365 giving Joe only a 23.1% (10/3) chance of victory.

Those odds shock me and I might even be tempted to place a bet on the underdog, because I feel this could be a 51-49 type fight, with Dubois being more heavy-handed and Joyce with more experience and a greater engine/work-rate.

Why is Daniel Dubois so heavily-favoured over Joyce, to the point that pundits and the betting websites regard this bout as a mismatch?

Daniel's best victory (and probably the only notable win on his resume) came against Nathan Gorman. He didn't achieve much as an amateur either.

In stark contrast, Joe's best wins as a pro came against Bryant Jennings, Alexander Ustinov and Bermane Stiverne.

Joyce has also beaten Tony Yoka, Ivan Dychko and Mahammadrasul Majidov in the amateurs, as well as Filip Hrgovic in the WSB.

Joe is unbeaten in the pro ranks and as an amateur, he captured gold medals at the Commonwealth games and the Europeans, as well as being an unfortunate Olympic silver medalist.

Joe is also a physically bigger man than Daniel.

I've watched these guys fight and whilst they're both decent prospects, they're also flawed in their own ways - one fighter doesn't appear to be any superior/inferior than the other to any great degree.

The outcome of my personal eyeball test doesn't suggest any justification for this bout being regarded as a complete mismatch either!

The more I think about this fight, the more tempting it is to place a bet on the underdog, because the current betting odds being quoted seem utterly preposterous!

Daniel Dubois rated as having an 88.2% (2/15) chance of victory over Joe Joyce? Gimme a break!

I’m picking Joyce to score a monumental upset to defeat Dubois, not because of his size and experience advantages, but mainly due to a gut instinct (based on DDD’s lack of credentials).

It’s going to be a tough and gruelling bout, whereby either fighter can win, but I really can’t help favouring Joyce.

Even dripping water wears away stone, so do you think that Dubois sealed his own fate by choosing to ignore and walk through Joyce’s jab?

Joe’s jab didn’t look like much, but it kept landing and Daniel didn’t actively try to block it.

[Lackeos]

I can see him picking up a strap

Daniel Dubois has the potential to become a great champion. He's the best heavyweight under age 25.

he has great potential.

I'm pretty confident that, in the long run, Hughie and Dubois will be the most successful fighters of this age group.

I think Dubois can eventually become a legit HW champ in a few years

Uh... K? Dubois is still only 23, and he's the highest-rated heavyweight on boxrec age 27 or under. He just lost to a 35-year-old who was ranked 11 spots above him. David Price beat Tyson Fury in 2006. So what then? Did David Price just stay ahead of Tyson Fury forever? No. Tyson Fury is the #1 heavyweight now. Not too surprising that they changes places when you consider that David Price had a 5-year age advantage over Fury in their meeting. Once the experience advantage was gone, Fury proved to be the far better fighter. In this match-up, Joe Joyce was 12 years older than Dubois. A typical fighter's prime starts around age 27-29, and Dubois is, of course, still another 5 years short of that. You obviously have a lot to learn about how primes work, and that figures, since you've been a member for all of 19 days.

I should also say, Dubois's handspeed did not look very impressive in this fight. So that's probably going to hold him back from becoming elite. But there remains few rivals of similar age who are looking much more promising. Feel free to name a bunch of 23-year-old heavyweights who you think are better prospects.

[oogiebe]

Simply put. Too early to tell. But I don't see 'greatness' in his future at this time.

Bump. A bit EO'esque by me, but...

He still has time to develop and maybe if he's all healed up, this will be the best thing that's happened to his career. No shame in losing to JJ.

Agree that it has the quality of a good loss. Dub learned that he cannot steamroll good opposition. And learned (hopefully) to move his damn head.

Dub still has potential, but I hate to say it - I think the E word is appropriate tonight: exposed.

You put Dub in with Andersen or Hrg, and I think you get similar to what you got tonight. Throw him in with a true world class heavyweight (top ten) and you get worse than that.. I’m talking even Hunter could wear him out.

Dub is not a complete fighter. He lacks so much, and he doesn’t have the earth shattering power we believed he did to make up for it.

Dub will likely challenge for a world title in a couple years. Can’t say I think he’d win it. But he’ll be around. He’s been well-promoted so far, and you don’t throw that kind of exposure down the drain.

Can't argue. He may have that power, just ran into a granite chinned monster tonight.

[margaret thatcher]

Anderson and Hrg still have their own Joyce's to prove themselves against, Dub looked like a million bucks until facing big joe and would look a million bucks again facing nearly everyone these other prospects are facing. dub losing only just goes to show that these other unproven guys might not be all that when tested either, how quick it's forgotten. boxing is about levels and we were shown it again

[oogiebe]

Anderson and Hrg still have their own Joyce's to prove themselves against, Dub looked like a million bucks until facing big joe and would look a million bucks again facing nearly everyone these other prospects are facing. dub losing only just goes to show that these other unproven guys might not be all that when tested either, how quick it's forgotten. boxing is about levels and we were shown it again

Anderson shouldn't be in the discussion yet. Much as I love him.

Dubs was arguably winning this fight. He'll be back if he's healthy. Joyce is as advertised though. i had my doubts.

[H8Usernames]

Both of them looked terrible. British level fighters, nothing more.

[Evander]

Compared to who ?

Who does Joyce fight next ?

I say Usyk

[tiny_acres]

I can see him picking up a strap

Daniel Dubois has the potential to become a great champion. He's the best heavyweight under age 25.

he has great potential.

I'm pretty confident that, in the long run, Hughie and Dubois will be the most successful fighters of this age group.

I think Dubois can eventually become a legit HW champ in a few years

Uh... K? Dubois is still only 23, and he's the highest-rated heavyweight on boxrec age 27 or under. He just lost to a 35-year-old who was ranked 11 spots above him. David Price beat Tyson Fury in 2006. So what then? Did David Price just stay ahead of Tyson Fury forever? No. Tyson Fury is the #1 heavyweight now. Not too surprising that they changes places when you consider that David Price had a 5-year age advantage over Fury in their meeting. Once the experience advantage was gone, Fury proved to be the far better fighter. In this match-up, Joe Joyce was 12 years older than Dubois. A typical fighter's prime starts around age 27-29, and Dubois is, of course, still another 5 years short of that. You obviously have a lot to learn about how primes work, and that figures, since you've been a member for all of 19 days.

I should also say, Dubois's handspeed did not look very impressive in this fight. So that's probably going to hold him back from becoming elite. But there remains few rivals of similar age who are looking much more promising. Feel free to name a bunch of 23-year-old heavyweights who you think are better prospects.

I still say Dubois will one day hold a strap.
Lackeos you covered the argument well.
At only 23 Dubois is still a work in progress

[Evander]

The UK Heavyweight Division is Deep.

[DrDuke]

Dubois still has a potential to improve. Only 23 years old FFS. He needs to work on other dimensions, as yesterday he was taught, that power doesn't help always.

[Enlightened-One]

This is what I posted back in July 2019:

Will Daniel Dubois become the next great champion ?

When I say "the great champion" I mean about Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Klitschko brothers.

I’m going to say no, because those guys were once in a generation sort of talents. It is extremely rare for any fighter to accomplish the things these guys achieved.

It’s like asking whether someone can win the lottery? Of course, it’s theoretically possible, but the likelihood is so remote that you may as well assume that it isn’t going to happen!

I’m not being funny, but Daniel Dubois beats Nathan Gorman to capture the British title, after achieving nothing notable beforehand (as a pro or in the amateur ranks) and people are discussing his potential to become the current generation’s next “great champion”, much akin to the likes of Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and also the Klitschko brothers?

[Enlightened-One]

Dubois still has a potential to improve. Only 23 years old FFS. He needs to work on other dimensions, as yesterday he was taught, that power doesn't help always.

I agree with you, Dubois is young enough to recover and rebuild his career.

I also won’t hold the Joyce defeat against him, because he tested himself against world-rated opposition. And I apply the same logic to Hughie Fury.

I didn’t like the betting odds for the Dubois-Joyce bout - they were preposterous! Most casuals decided to ride the DDD hype train!

And too many people granted Dubois an honorary rite of passage to becoming one of the top dogs of the division, without having earned it.

The one thing I will say though, is that he quit. He wilted and never looked comfortable under pressure. Daniel couldn’t overcome adversity.

And that weak mind-set will inevitably prevent him from achieving anything at world-level.

Hopefully he’ll learn from the Joyce defeat and comeback better and stronger, but if he remains mentally fragile (the bully that can’t cope with adversity), then he’ll remain a British/European level fighter for the remainder of his career.

[ValMar]

Dubois still has a potential to improve. Only 23 years old FFS. He needs to work on other dimensions, as yesterday he was taught, that power doesn't help always.

I agree with you, Dubois is young enough to recover and rebuild his career.

I also won’t hold the Joyce defeat against him, because he tested himself against world-rated opposition. And I apply the same logic to Hughie Fury.

I didn’t like the betting odds for the Dubois-Joyce bout - they were preposterous! Most casuals decided to ride the DDD hype train!

And too many people granted Dubois an honorary rite of passage to becoming one of the top dogs of the division, without having earned it.

The one thing I will say though, is that he quit. He wilted and never looked comfortable under pressure. Daniel couldn’t overcome adversity.

And that weak mind-set will inevitably prevent him from achieving anything at world-level.

Hopefully he’ll learn from the Joyce defeat and comeback better and stronger, but if he remains mentally fragile (the bully that can’t cope with adversity), then he’ll remain a British/European level fighter for the remainder of his career.

I agree with you 90 %.
BTW, I wouldn't change a word what I wrote last year.

[Enlightened-One]

Dubois still has a potential to improve. Only 23 years old FFS. He needs to work on other dimensions, as yesterday he was taught, that power doesn't help always.

I agree with you, Dubois is young enough to recover and rebuild his career.

I also won’t hold the Joyce defeat against him, because he tested himself against world-rated opposition. And I apply the same logic to Hughie Fury.

I didn’t like the betting odds for the Dubois-Joyce bout - they were preposterous! Most casuals decided to ride the DDD hype train!

And too many people granted Dubois an honorary rite of passage to becoming one of the top dogs of the division, without having earned it.

The one thing I will say though, is that he quit. He wilted and never looked comfortable under pressure. Daniel couldn’t overcome adversity.

And that weak mind-set will inevitably prevent him from achieving anything at world-level.

Hopefully he’ll learn from the Joyce defeat and comeback better and stronger, but if he remains mentally fragile (the bully that can’t cope with adversity), then he’ll remain a British/European level fighter for the remainder of his career.

I agree with you 90 %.
BTW, I wouldn't change a word what I wrote last year.

Same here.

This is what I posted back in July 2019:

I’m not being funny, but Daniel Dubois beats Nathan Gorman to capture the British title, after achieving nothing notable beforehand (as a pro or in the amateur ranks) and people are discussing his potential to become the current generation’s next “great champion”, much akin to the likes of Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and also the Klitschko brothers?

[Syntax Error]

Dubois is dedicated and studious, plus he is still a baby, so he can come again.

It was worrying to see someone with Dubois's ambitions look for the easy way out the first time he encountered adversity in the ring, but hopefully he will learn from this.

I'm not certain he's destined for greatness because he's never done anything to warrant those accolades, but I see no reason why he cannot redeem himself down the line.

[skanksta]

Being outmanned late on from an injury to Joyce at such a young age is hardly a dealbreaker.
Especially in a fight he was edging on the cards.

Khan, Lewis, Canelo, Ricky Burns all suffered worse defeats and went on to have great a championship reigns.
And we all know Fury got outboxed by John McDermott - now look at him !

[ValMar]

Being outmanned late on from an injury to Joyce at such a young age is hardly a dealbreaker.
Especially in a fight he was edging on the cards.

Khan, Lewis, Canelo, Ricky Burns all suffered worse defeats and went on to have great a championship reigns.
And we all know Fury got outboxed by John McDermott - now look at him !

Yes !

[bobcatbox]

Being outmanned late on from an injury to Joyce at such a young age is hardly a dealbreaker.
Especially in a fight he was edging on the cards.

Khan, Lewis, Canelo, Ricky Burns all suffered worse defeats and went on to have great a championship reigns.
And we all know Fury got outboxed by John McDermott - now look at him !

Yes !

Khan is definitely a fair point. Although he got caught and not beaten into submission. But can you really compare this to Canelo’s loss to Mayweather? There’s a difference in losing to Joe Joyce and losing to the undisputed #1 p4p fighter in the world.

[skanksta]

Being outmanned late on from an injury to Joyce at such a young age is hardly a dealbreaker.
Especially in a fight he was edging on the cards.

Khan, Lewis, Canelo, Ricky Burns all suffered worse defeats and went on to have great a championship reigns.
And we all know Fury got outboxed by John McDermott - now look at him !

Yes !

Khan is definitely a fair point. Although he got caught and not beaten into submission. But can you really compare this to Canelo’s loss to Mayweather? There’s a difference in losing to Joe Joyce and losing to the undisputed #1 p4p fighter in the world.

It’s a bit of a stretch, but..,
Canelo - a 175ibs champ - was completely outboxed by a 37 year old former featherweight. He had a 20lb+ weight advantage on the night.