Page 4 of 5
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 16:18
by oogiebe
SteveO wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 16:17
Wlad became 'the man' by beating #1 contender Ruslan Chagaev.
After Vitali retired Wlad also beat the #1 contender Alexander Povetkin, thus establishing a new lineage.
I always thought any new lineage involves being undisputed.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 16:18
by margaret thatcher
I think the argument I see most against there being a lineal champ now is that Tyson Fury announced his retirement and didn't fight for almost 3 years, that's why Transnational doesn't have him as lineal for example. Are they 'clutching at straws'?
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 16:25
by SteveO
oogiebe wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 16:18
SteveO wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 16:17
Wlad became 'the man' by beating #1 contender Ruslan Chagaev.
After Vitali retired Wlad also beat the #1 contender Alexander Povetkin, thus establishing a new lineage.
I always thought any new lineage involves being undisputed.
No, when a lineal champion retires, the recognized #1 and #2 contenders fight each other to establish a new lineage.
Fury did not retire, he could not fight because his boxing licence was suspended (not revoked) pending an investigation. When his licence was returned Fury continued his career.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 16:27
by boxing_rocks
SteveO wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 16:17
Wlad became 'the man' by beating #1 contender Ruslan Chagaev.
After Vitali retired Wlad also beat the #1 contender Alexander Povetkin, thus establishing a new lineage.
Seriously? Chagaev and Povetkin??? They were #1 contenders according to WBA which is the most corrupt ABC org. They were certainly not the strongest opponents available.
What about Wilder who was and still is a WBC champion?
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 16:29
by margaret thatcher
What actually counts as a retirement? Dude said he retired, stopped fighting, and became massively obese and stopped training.
Like, if a guy said he retired but always had some thought in his mind that he'd return, then came back 5 years later, does that count?
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 16:29
by boxing_rocks
SteveO wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 16:25
oogiebe wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 16:18
I always thought any new lineage involves being undisputed.
No, when a lineal champion retires, the recognized #1 and #2 contenders fight each other to establish a new lineage.
Fury did not retire, he could not fight because his boxing licence was suspended (not revoked) pending an investigation. When his licence was returned Fury continued his career.
Recognized by who? Did majority think that Povetkin was better than Wilder? There probably were at least 10 HWs better than Chagaev at the time.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 16:29
by SmoothStyle1
SteveO wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 16:17
Wlad became 'the man' by beating #1 contender Ruslan Chagaev.
After Vitali retired Wlad also beat the #1 contender Alexander Povetkin, thus establishing a new lineage.
Wlad beat Chagaev in 2009, this is back when Vitali was still an active champion.
At that time, Wlad and Vitali were the #1 and #2 in the division so not sure how Wlad beating Chagaev could result in a new lineal champ when big brother was still looming out there.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 16:33
by margaret thatcher
The problem with Wlad's case, is that although he was clearly the top guy , there was no real clear, unarguable moment/fight when he really earned that, it was a cumulative thing
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 21 Feb 2020, 23:22
by squiggy
But Wlad clearly was the top heavyweight by the time Fury beat him.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 01:44
by ewenhay
Lol. Is this thread still going?
It's not really a big deal either way.
We'll find out who the top guy in the division is in 24 hours.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 03:02
by funso banjo baby
Fury is the champion
the other baubles mean fook all
end of
close thread
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 10:25
by boxing_rocks
squiggy wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 23:22
But Wlad clearly was the top heavyweight by the time Fury beat him.
First of all, "top heavyweight" and "lineal champion" are two different things. Second of all, there was unbeaten WBC champion Wilder and rising Joshua, so how was it "clearly" ?
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 16:33
by ewenhay
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 10:25
squiggy wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 23:22
But Wlad clearly was the top heavyweight by the time Fury beat him.
First of all, "top heavyweight" and "lineal champion" are two different things. Second of all, there was unbeaten WBC champion Wilder and rising Joshua, so how was it "clearly" ?
Wilder was still fighting taxi drivers when Fury decisioned Klitschko. Joshua was barely ranked.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:24
by Brute
Fury beat Wlad Klitschko who at that time held all the major belts. The WBC decided not to recognise Fury.
Fury has still not lost a fight.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:30
by boxing_rocks
Brute wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 17:24
Fury beat Wlad Klitschko who at that time held all the major belts. The WBC decided not to recognise Fury.
Fury has still not lost a fight.
????? WBC belt was held by Wilder.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:33
by boxing_rocks
ewenhay wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 16:33
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 10:25
First of all, "top heavyweight" and "lineal champion" are two different things. Second of all, there was unbeaten WBC champion Wilder and rising Joshua, so how was it "clearly" ?
Wilder was still fighting taxi drivers when Fury decisioned Klitschko. Joshua was barely ranked.
These are opinions. Wlad never met formal requirements to become a lineal champion.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:36
by Brute
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 17:30
Brute wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 17:24
Fury beat Wlad Klitschko who at that time held all the major belts. The WBC decided not to recognise Fury.
Fury has still not lost a fight.
????? WBC belt was held by Wilder.
Who did Wilder beat to get that? Wilder was recognised by the WBC after he beat Stiverne.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:40
by oogiebe
Brute wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 17:36
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 17:30
????? WBC belt was held by Wilder.
Who did Wilder beat to get that?
Wilder had already beaten Stiverne for the WBC belt when Fury faced Wlad.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:41
by Brute
Who did Stiverne beat?
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 17:46
by oogiebe
Brute wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 17:41
Who did Stiverne beat?
Arreola for the vacant crown. None of this matters. Last undisputed was Lewis. No one has established themselves or 'reset' the lineal as undisputed since.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 18:19
by squiggy
But nobody will, either. You'll be able to play "somebody else still has XYZ belt" until the cows come home.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 18:56
by ewenhay
squiggy wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 18:19
But nobody will, either. You'll be able to play "somebody else still has XYZ belt" until the cows come home.
Exactly. And people count the wbo these days. And in some cases the ibo.
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 18:58
by ewenhay
If you're being exact about this then Lewis surely wouldn't have been lineal either.
Nor many before him.
The lineage would have stopped when Tunney retired?
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 19:01
by ewenhay
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 17:33
ewenhay wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 16:33
Wilder was still fighting taxi drivers when Fury decisioned Klitschko. Joshua was barely ranked.
These are opinions. Wlad never met formal requirements to become a lineal champion.
Which would have required him to fight his own brother? Because he did everything else but that.
And what are these formal requirements? Are they written down somewhere?
Re: Is Fury a lineal champion?
Posted: 22 Feb 2020, 20:12
by boxing_rocks
squiggy wrote: ↑22 Feb 2020, 18:19
But nobody will, either. You'll be able to play "somebody else still has XYZ belt" until the cows come home.
There are 4 major belts. Crawford and Usyk established new lineages, but they both moved up, so those disappeared.