BoxRec

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 04:43

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 04:35

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 04:33

It isn’t that black and white, you can be hurt and not be knocked over, other things come into play, your balance, if you saw the punch coming, if it hit you on the temple and your brain is scrambled for instance. Being knocked out is pretty painless, it’s instant so it’s not uncommon to be more hurt in other fights.

well i guess it depends on how one defines 'hurt', because id say a guy totally knocked cold was badly hurt even if he felt nothing

and as ive said, it's not a one off thing.....look at all the fights where groves lands tons of good shots but couldnt even put the guys down....its why poor gutnechkt ended the way he did. im just having trouble buying this stuff about him having monster power......fighters are well known to give funny answers in these 'best of' type of interviews, constantly big upping guys they did better against compared to those they struggled with more.

I think you are looking at it too basic. Knocking someone down doesn't define power. Bruno had a lot of power and didn’t knock anyone world class out, or even down, doesn’t mean he didn’t punch hard. Depends on lots of things and if you are wary of someone’s punch you can prepare yourself or circle away from it to take the sting out.

Yes I agree, maggie is treating power like it's a single variable in a video game which always results in more knockdowns / knockouts if you turn it up. Real life is a lot more complex.

I think the whole GGG - Murray discrepancy can be cleared up by looking at Murray's actual words:

https://www.BS.com/murray-grov ... in--124833

“The biggest puncher I’ve faced for one punch, Groves, just a back hand. It felt like there was more power in there. Golovkin’s was more of a thud. Every shot was hard. His jab was like a ramrod. It was solid. Everywhere he hit you, you felt it. Whereas when I fought Groves I was just thinking about his back hand. Because he’s got great power in that backhand," Murray said to Boxing News.

"So I think for one-punch power I would pick Groves but for consistency, constant power, it’s obviously Golovkin.

Against Groves, Murray was worried about one shot only - the right hand. It's a lot easier to manage an opponent's power if you know what side it's always going to be coming from. So that is what happened - Murray got hurt on several occasions but was always able to recover because he knew the power shots would always be from Groves' right.

Against GGG, Murray had far more to worry about because every single shot was a good one. So the threat comes from everywhere and is much harder to defend against, or to recover from when you're hurt. That's how GGG was able to knock him down 3 times with less one-shot power than Groves - constant pressure and threat from all angles, nowhere to run. That will exhaust and dispirit anyone a lot quicker than trying to stay away from a single power shot.

9m10s to 10m10s

Yeah I thought it was pretty much universally understood there’s different types of power - being generally heavy-handed is different to having one-punch ko power in a particular shot?

oh sure, but these guys labelled as monster hitters with a certain punch usually, you know, actually stop fighters with that shot , and groves couldnt do that to one guy above british level . in fact a lot of them just walked through it. it's one thing when a guy isnt actually landing the shot much, but groves landed the kitchen sink vs a lot of these guys and still couldnt do it.....

guys like gutnechkt, murray, chudinov etc got such bad beatdowns precisely because groves didnt have the power to actully drop them and end it then. and guys like jack and degale never showed bother...eubank and smith never even close to down or out...the polish guy degale fought next hurt him fr more

and as it relates to the thread title, froch was the only one who actually went down, you can't say 'well, sure, froch got dropped hard, but so did all these other good fighters' groves literally did it to NO ONE else above brit level dudes

btw, ggg dropped murray early in the fight, after not doing much the first 2 rounds, there was no exhaustion or fatigue or accumulation in that, groves wouldve landed many more right hands over the course of 12 than ggg landed total punches at that point

For one punch KO power, see Wayne Alexander

rebrasse, there's another euro+ fighter who just kept walking down groves, callum put him down though

The other thing that has to be taken into account (if it hasn't already) is the consistent quality of Groves' opposition.

True, when you take opposition to account you can see he didn't score a single big KO above Brit level

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 12:03 oh sure, but these guys labelled as monster hitters with a certain punch usually, you know, actually stop fighters with that shot , and groves couldnt do that to one guy above british level . in fact a lot of them just walked through it. it's one thing when a guy isnt actually landing the shot much, but groves landed the kitchen sink vs a lot of these guys and still couldnt do it.....

guys like gutnechkt, murray, chudinov etc got such bad beatdowns precisely because groves didnt have the power to actully drop them and end it then. and guys like jack and degale never showed bother...eubank and smith never even close to down or out...the polish guy degale fought next hurt him fr more

and as it relates to the thread title, froch was the only one who actually went down, you can't say 'well, sure, froch got dropped hard, but so did all these other good fighters' groves literally did it to NO ONE else above brit level dudes

I've lost the point of your argument, are you trying to say Groves wasn't a hard puncher?

i'm saying he wasnt a particularly hard hitter past british level, what actually happened simply doesnt bear it out

as it relates to the main thread, you cant say that froch got dropped hard by a guy who did it to other world class or even fringe world class fighters

i do not buy the stuff said about him being a massive hitter who apparently hits so hard you can feel it when his punches miss and go past you , as was brought up

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:31 i'm saying he wasnt a particularly hard hitter past british level, what actually happened simply doesnt bear it out

as it relates to the main thread, you cant say that froch got dropped hard by a guy who did it to other world class or even fringe world class fighters

i do not buy the stuff said about him being a massive hitter who apparently hits so hard you can feel it when his punches miss and go past you , as was brought up

Based on Murray saying he was?

Tough to call cos of the styles. I think Eubank had everything on paper over Froch....quicker, and for me better power, and chin....also much better variety and defence.

But....Eubank also had most things on paper over Collins....but Collins had the style....the inspired Froch vs Bute might have won ala how Collins won in the rematch.

But any other Froch, and Eubank out boxes him. We need to remember also that Eubank wasnt the same fighter after Watson.

I would also say that I think Joe Calzaghe would also need to be inspired to beat a prime Eubank, but I would give him a better chance

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:34

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:31 i'm saying he wasnt a particularly hard hitter past british level, what actually happened simply doesnt bear it out

as it relates to the main thread, you cant say that froch got dropped hard by a guy who did it to other world class or even fringe world class fighters

i do not buy the stuff said about him being a massive hitter who apparently hits so hard you can feel it when his punches miss and go past you , as was brought up

Based on Murray saying he was?

Mick also mentioned that Groves hits so hard that fighters feel it just going past their ear, when he misses!

Everyone who’s been in with George says his power is frightening. Murray said much harder than GGG. Callum Smith said them just whistling past his ears was enough

And people are supposedly educating me about the the difference between 1 punch power and thudding cumulative power, while suggesting that it's the guy who landed loads but couldnt put down murray, gutnechkt, chudinov, rebrasse, degale, jack, callum, or cej who is the monster 1 hitter who just needs a single shot! well why is that big hit missing so much?? where did the 'fright' go?

just dont add up bruh

stujones wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:35 Tough to call cos of the styles. I think Eubank had everything on paper over Froch....quicker, and for me better power, and chin....also much better variety and defence.

But....Eubank also had most things on paper over Collins....but Collins had the style....the inspired Froch vs Bute might have won ala how Collins won in the rematch.

But any other Froch, and Eubank out boxes him. We need to remember also that Eubank wasnt the same fighter after Watson.

I would also say that I think Joe Calzaghe would also need to be inspired to beat a prime Eubank, but I would give him a better chance

That Collins performance in the Eubank-Collins rematch still baffles me really - he did EVERYTHING wrong, and Eubank couldn’t take him out on his way in; you’d of expected him to if you said beforehand Collins would just wail in.

Collins took plenty coming in....just a cast iron chin, great strength and just work rate...didnt give Eubank any breaks.

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:37

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:34

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:31 i'm saying he wasnt a particularly hard hitter past british level, what actually happened simply doesnt bear it out

as it relates to the main thread, you cant say that froch got dropped hard by a guy who did it to other world class or even fringe world class fighters

i do not buy the stuff said about him being a massive hitter who apparently hits so hard you can feel it when his punches miss and go past you , as was brought up

Based on Murray saying he was?

Mick also mentioned that Groves hits so hard that fighters feel it just going past their ear, when he misses!

Everyone who’s been in with George says his power is frightening. Murray said much harder than GGG. Callum Smith said them just whistling past his ears was enough

And people are supposedly educating me about the the difference between 1 punch power and thudding cumulative power, while suggesting that it's the guy who landed loads but couldnt put down murray, gutnechkt, chudinov, rebrasse, degale, jack, callum, or cej who is the monster 1 hitter who just needs a single shot! well why is that big hit missing so much?? where did the 'fright' go?

just dont add up bruh

Well of course Groves was no Julian Jackson but he could still bang. He amateur career was apparently full of KOs and 20 KOS in 28 pro wins isn't too shabby. Why would Murray say he was such a big puncher if he wasn't, he lost the fight by a wide UD.

Out of the other seven you listed, six had never been stopped by anyone, even to this day.

gutnechkt (Never stopped before and he sadly collapsed after their fight and will never be the same man again)
chudinov (never stopped before but Groves stopped him)
rebrasse (never stopped)
degale (never stopped)
jack (world class fighter, decent chin)
callum (unbeaten and Groves looked shot at that point)
cej (never stopped)

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:37

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:34

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:31 i'm saying he wasnt a particularly hard hitter past british level, what actually happened simply doesnt bear it out

as it relates to the main thread, you cant say that froch got dropped hard by a guy who did it to other world class or even fringe world class fighters

i do not buy the stuff said about him being a massive hitter who apparently hits so hard you can feel it when his punches miss and go past you , as was brought up

Based on Murray saying he was?

Mick also mentioned that Groves hits so hard that fighters feel it just going past their ear, when he misses!

Everyone who’s been in with George says his power is frightening. Murray said much harder than GGG. Callum Smith said them just whistling past his ears was enough

And people are supposedly educating me about the the difference between 1 punch power and thudding cumulative power, while suggesting that it's the guy who landed loads but couldnt put down murray, gutnechkt, chudinov, rebrasse, degale, jack, callum, or cej who is the monster 1 hitter who just needs a single shot! well why is that big hit missing so much?? where did the 'fright' go?

just dont add up bruh

It was Callum Smith who said it... he nearly decapitated Smigga, too. Nobody else did. Abraham or Ward. A peak Smith at that.

I do think the KO power was there from Groves, but his ability to land it in world class perhaps wasn't.

Groves was one of only two men to knock down the iron chinned Froch and IMO that gives the argument a fair bit of cachet.

Actually, going back to the Eubank Snr or Froch debate, I think two things are quite revealing; one from Groves and one from coghaugen11.

Groves said the thing about Froch as a boxer was that you could hit. It wasn't hard to land your punches.

coghaugen11 mentioned earlier something along the lines that Froch was made for Nigel Benn because you do not fight him face first...indicating, again, that Froch is easy to hit.

If that's the case surely he took far more full blooded punches to the chin than Eubank Snr, IMO against better opposition and, fact, he was never stopped

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 18:41

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:37

Controversial wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 17:34

Based on Murray saying he was?

Mick also mentioned that Groves hits so hard that fighters feel it just going past their ear, when he misses!

Everyone who’s been in with George says his power is frightening. Murray said much harder than GGG. Callum Smith said them just whistling past his ears was enough

And people are supposedly educating me about the the difference between 1 punch power and thudding cumulative power, while suggesting that it's the guy who landed loads but couldnt put down murray, gutnechkt, chudinov, rebrasse, degale, jack, callum, or cej who is the monster 1 hitter who just needs a single shot! well why is that big hit missing so much?? where did the 'fright' go?

just dont add up bruh

Well of course Groves was no Julian Jackson but he could still bang. He amateur career was apparently full of KOs and 20 KOS in 28 pro wins isn't too shabby. Why would Murray say he was such a big puncher if he wasn't, he lost the fight by a wide UD.

Out of the other seven you listed, six had never been stopped by anyone, even to this day.

gutnechkt (Never stopped before and he sadly collapsed after their fight and will never be the same man again)
chudinov (never stopped before but Groves stopped him)
rebrasse (never stopped)
degale (never stopped)
jack (world class fighter, decent chin)
callum (unbeaten and Groves looked shot at that point)
cej (never stopped)

it's not even the knockouts though, he couldnt even drop those guys, and most of them have been down, multiple times even

i mean, sure, im not saying groves is some power fists, but ffs dudes here are saying he's got 'frightening' power and hits so hard that you feel the gusts from his shots

ggg needed only about 1/10 the shots groves did to put murray on his butt (and then kept doing it and stopped him), i just take it all with a grain of salt

THEBUTCH wrote: ↑16 Feb 2021, 18:59 Actually, going back to the Eubank Snr or Froch debate, I think two things are quite revealing; one from Groves and one from coghaugen11.

Groves said the thing about Froch as a boxer was that you could hit. It wasn't hard to land your punches.

coghaugen11 mentioned earlier something along the lines that Froch was made for Nigel Benn because you do not fight him face first...indicating, again, that Froch is easy to hit.

If that's the case surely he took far more full blooded punches to the chin than Eubank Snr, IMO against better opposition and, fact, he was never stopped

But he never fought a one-hit puncher remotely close to Benn, or one anywhere near Thompson’s size.

Froch was durable and could take a lot of volume from non-technical athletic talents (Dirrel, Pascal) or flat footed warhorses (shot undersized Abraham, shot drained Johnson, shot Reid), or a shot undersized Taylor or petrified Bute or a Kessler on the slide, granted.

and as it relates again to the thread point, bringing up groves power doesnt help froch's case when we are specifically talking about a knockdown, because groves did it to no one else of note. you cant say that froch went down hard, 'but oh so did these really good durable fighters'

it's not like eubank taking shots from a guy who iced iran barkley in one and knocked out mcclellan , or let alone a cruiser who blew euro level fighters away and of course KO'd haye

I think Murray was a bit more inclined to try for a win at the time he fought GGG, but by the time he fought Groves he was well and truly a defensive fighter in world class.

I take your point about GGG though, there's no denying the damage he inflicted.