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Re: The great non champions
Posted: 07 Mar 2021, 08:46
by AntonioMartin
Thunder and Lightning wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 08:36
The 50s heavyweights were quite good like Eddie Machen, Zora Folley and Cleveland Williams.
Yeah those guys were very good and quite popular...
These days Im planning to visit Folley's grave to pay my respects...
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 07 Mar 2021, 13:09
by Ambling Alp II
Djanders44 wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 02:21
It really depends on how you define "Champion." If we're talking about non-Lineal Champions, I could easily come up with 50 names, off the top of my head, in the Heavyweight Division alone. If we're talking any kind of "World" Champion, then the list gets pretty short, at least in my head it does. There have always been other "World Championship" Claimants. Even Sam Langford had a "World" Championship belt.
When I think of champion, I don't count all the WBS titles. The lineal system isn't perfect, bit's far superior. I think most real boxing history fans go by it.
Sam Langford did have the colored title which actually is more impressive than a WBS title. Still, it's not the same as being the lineal champion.
Langford btw, is the first guy I thought of when I saw this thread. Then I saw some of the guys mentioned; guys that weren't anywhere close to being great.
The thread really should have been called "
The Good" Non Champions, instead of The
Great Non Champions.. Still a good thread anyway.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 07 Mar 2021, 13:57
by Djanders44
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 13:09
Djanders44 wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 02:21
It really depends on how you define "Champion." If we're talking about non-Lineal Champions, I could easily come up with 50 names, off the top of my head, in the Heavyweight Division alone. If we're talking any kind of "World" Champion, then the list gets pretty short, at least in my head it does. There have always been other "World Championship" Claimants. Even Sam Langford had a "World" Championship belt.
When I think of champion, I don't count all the WBS titles. The lineal system isn't perfect, bit's far superior. I think most real boxing history fans go by it.
Sam Langford did have the colored title which actually is more impressive than a WBS title. Still, it's not the same as being the lineal champion.
Langford btw, is the first guy I thought of when I saw this thread. Then I saw some of the guys mentioned; guys that weren't anywhere close to being great.
The thread really should have been called "
The Good" Non Champions, instead of The
Great Non Champions.. Still a good thread anyway.
Me, too. Langford's name popped into my head immediately when I saw the Thread Title. In my mind, he's definitely the very best non-lineal champion in boxing history.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 07 Mar 2021, 22:21
by Onetimeonly
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑07 Mar 2021, 02:05
elmersalsa wrote: ↑05 Mar 2021, 19:40
Top 50 so far by boxrec posters:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
#3?
Hmnn...Jimmy Bivins??? Holman Williams?? Maybe???
Not one of the 4 made your list.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 08 Mar 2021, 08:42
by elmersalsa
So, we have:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
Who is #3?
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 08 Mar 2021, 11:59
by AntonioMartin
elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Mar 2021, 08:42
So, we have:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
Who is #3?
Perhaps Holman Williams or Jimmy Bivins? I heard great things about them.....
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 08 Mar 2021, 12:01
by Ambling Alp II
A person could probably make decent arguments for several guys. Bivins, Williams, Lloyd Marshall, Joe Jeannette, Packey McFarland, and Young Stribling would all have to be up there.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 08 Mar 2021, 12:39
by AntonioMartin
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Mar 2021, 12:01
A person could probably make decent arguments for several guys. Bivins, Williams, Lloyd Marshall, Joe Jeannette, Packey McFarland, and Young Stribling would all have to be up there.
Yeah, those guys could all be there.....Stribling would be counting his world title belts today...
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 15:40
by elmersalsa
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑08 Mar 2021, 11:59
elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Mar 2021, 08:42
So, we have:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
Who is #3?
Perhaps Holman Williams or Jimmy Bivins? I heard great things about them.....
Let's put Packey McFarland at #3. Any objections from the forum?
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 18:15
by Onetimeonly
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:40
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑08 Mar 2021, 11:59
elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Mar 2021, 08:42
So, we have:
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
Who is #3?
Perhaps Holman Williams or Jimmy Bivins? I heard great things about them.....
Let's put Packey McFarland at #3. Any objections from the forum?
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
Don't you think this list is moving too quickly?
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 18:25
by elmersalsa
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 18:15
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:40
AntonioMartin wrote: ↑08 Mar 2021, 11:59
Perhaps Holman Williams or Jimmy Bivins? I heard great things about them.....
Let's put Packey McFarland at #3. Any objections from the forum?
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
Don't you think this list is moving too quickly?
It would if people cooperate.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 18:32
by elmersalsa
It looks like there was not an objection. Well, #4 is the great Holman Williams!
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
Who is #5?
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 18:37
by elmersalsa
#5 should be Peter Jackson. The Black Prince
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
5. Peter Jackson
Any objection for #5?
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 18:43
by Onetimeonly
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 20:51
by AntonioMartin
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 18:37
#5 should be Peter Jackson. The Black Prince
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
5. Peter Jackson
Any objection for #5?
Peter Jackson..you know because of the press of his day, all the way to the 1980s many people thought he was Puerto Rican so some in the island, myself included, counted him as one of our greats. Then it was discovered he was actually a US Virgin Islander instead.
Nevertheless, I still count him as one of the greats...
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 23:04
by Onetimeonly
I wouldn't have Jackson as a top 5 heavy nonchampion, much less overall. Elmer loves him, "he had a lot of fights"
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 23:14
by Onetimeonly
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 18:37
#5 should be Peter Jackson. The Black Prince
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
5. Peter Jackson
Any objection for #5?
https://images.app.goo.gl/mziUKUHDMFgFFQHJ8
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 23:56
by elmersalsa
Then, who should be #5, Onetimeonly? Tell us since you objected.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 10 Mar 2021, 00:14
by Onetimeonly
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 23:56
Then, who should be #5, Onetimeonly? Tell us since you objected.
Dozens, why don't you just tell me what rates him over newsboy brown past Jackson having a lot of fights?
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 10 Mar 2021, 09:59
by chrisjs1985
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 18:32
It looks like there was not an objection. Well, #4 is the great Holman Williams!
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
Who is #5?
Jim Driscoll, Lew Tendler, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Cocoa Kid jump right out. Bivins probably the pick of the bunch.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 10 Mar 2021, 10:22
by Onetimeonly
chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 09:59
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 18:32
It looks like there was not an objection. Well, #4 is the great Holman Williams!
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
Who is #5?
Jim Driscoll, Lew Tendler, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Cocoa Kid jump right out. Bivins probably the pick of the bunch.
Mike gibbons has always been underrated, by myself too.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 10 Mar 2021, 10:59
by chrisjs1985
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 10:22
chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 09:59
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 18:32
It looks like there was not an objection. Well, #4 is the great Holman Williams!
1. Sam Langford
2. Charley Burley
3. Packey McFarland
4. Holman Williams
Who is #5?
Jim Driscoll, Lew Tendler, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Cocoa Kid jump right out. Bivins probably the pick of the bunch.
Mike gibbons has always been underrated, by myself too.
Yes, both Gibbons brothers for sure. Great mentions. Billy Graham too.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 10 Mar 2021, 11:31
by elmersalsa
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 00:14
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 23:56
Then, who should be #5, Onetimeonly? Tell us since you objected.
Dozens, why don't you just tell me what rates him over newsboy brown past Jackson having a lot of fights?
Newsboy Brown vs Peter Jackson will be discussed in just a minute. Great choice Onetime! Let's see who was better. Shall we?
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 10 Mar 2021, 12:40
by Onetimeonly
elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 11:31
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 00:14
elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 23:56
Then, who should be #5, Onetimeonly? Tell us since you objected.
Dozens, why don't you just tell me what rates him over newsboy brown past Jackson having a lot of fights?
Newsboy Brown vs Peter Jackson will be discussed in just a minute. Great choice Onetime! Let's see who was better. Shall we?
I already know, let's see if you admit it.
Re: The great non champions
Posted: 10 Mar 2021, 12:42
by Onetimeonly
chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 10:59
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 10:22
chrisjs1985 wrote: ↑10 Mar 2021, 09:59
Jim Driscoll, Lew Tendler, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Cocoa Kid jump right out. Bivins probably the pick of the bunch.
Mike gibbons has always been underrated, by myself too.
Yes, both Gibbons brothers for sure. Great mentions. Billy Graham too.
Yeah, like I said there are dozens greater than Jackson.