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Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 15:51
by gilgamesh
I have to throw up in my mouth a little anytime I see "there are 68 legit World titles"
What utter nonsense that is.
I know that there are 4 Sanctioning Bodies, and a Champion for each one, but on the very face of it that's just such nonsense.
There's only ever 1 Champion. The rest are contenders. It's not always clear who THE Champion is, but there's only 1.
I know this is changing the topic which is not my intention, it's just that 68 Champions in 17 weight classes really grinds my gears.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 15:59
by Jeff_lacy_ko
If you count foreign born citizens or not it doesnt matter. Us boxing isnt done but it has been on a steady downward trend
And that is mostly self inflicted
It is no secret the best athletes go to american football, basketball and baseball. However 147 fighters and mw for that matter are generally to small for those sports so i wonder if that is why the US has a glut of good fighters around that weight
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:02
by Goodz
Crease wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 13:48
It will
NEVER be "game over" for the United States in the sport of boxing. They have too much talent in their country and top trainers and gyms to harness it... There will always be another great fighter coming up... And another great fighter coming behind him...
If the best amateur boxers from around the world are turning pro in increasing numbers from countries that weren't usually turning professional. That's gonna have an increasing effect on USA. When America used to win gold medals in the amateurs they had much better pro fighters. . Now they never win gold medals!
You claim is theres always been great fighters coming up from America. Well since Ive been watching boxing since about 2008 theres been no great americans come on the scene at heavyweight, Cruiserweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight, Only one at Super.middle in Ward. And none that I can think of from lightweight down. From my observation it seems USAs best talent definitely mostly centres arround 147 ( from 140 to 154).
Since the eastern euros could turn pro and the Brits improved, and other countries had the occasional top fighter. It seems USA have desperately clutched onto 147 as the last division they dominate after watching all the other divisions go.
For a clear example I think when I first started watching boxing. Light Heavyweight was dominated by Tarver, Hopkins, Jones Jr, Dawson. Well nowadays its Beterbiev, Bivol, Kovalev, Gvozdyk..
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:02
by gilgamesh
Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:59
If you count foreign born citizens or not it doesnt matter. Us boxing isnt done but it has been on a steady downward trend
And that is mostly self inflicted
It is no secret the best athletes go to american football, basketball and baseball. However 147 fighters and mw for that matter are generally to small for those sports so i wonder if that is why the US has a glut of good fighters around that weight
Probably is.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:02
by giacomino
gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:51
I have to throw up in my mouth a little anytime I see "there are 68 legit World titles"
What utter nonsense that is.
I know that there are 4 Sanctioning Bodies, and a Champion for each one, but on the very face of it that's just such nonsense.
There's only ever 1 Champion. The rest are contenders. It's not always clear who THE Champion is, but there's only 1.
I know this is changing the topic which is not my intention, it's just that 68 Champions in 17 weight classes really grinds my gears.
There are way more than 100 “champions” if you consider the four alphabet entities. Which is why I prefer “belt-holder” to world champion, since the “world” they are the “champion” of is property of the governing body that gives them the belt.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:03
by The Gratest
All that time to do that reasearch yet not enough time to answer my questions.
It's pretty obvious why.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:05
by Enlightened-One
There are 56 legit world titles (i.e. excluding bridgerweight & secondary straps) covering the top 14 weight classes.
Twenty of those belts are held by fighters that are born and bred Americans.
Therefore, 36% of all the available legitimate world titles (with the top-14 weight classes) are currently held by born and bred Americans.
From the secondary titles (within the same 14 divisions), ten of those so-called “champs” are also born and bred Americans.
According to the BoxRec top 100 pound-for-pound ratings, 36 of the fighters listed are born and bred Americans.
Three of The RING’s top-ten pound-for-pounders are born and bred Americans.
From the top 14 weight classes (i.e. junior bantamweight to heavyweight), The RING classifies 53 Americans within their top-ten ratings, which equates to an average of roughly four fighters per division.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:07
by Goodz
Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:59
It is no secret the best athletes go to american football, basketball and baseball. However 147 fighters and mw for that matter are generally to small for those sports so i wonder if that is why the US has a glut of good fighters around that weight
that argument has been ridiculed, laughed and debunked over and over many years ago. Most stupid excuse ever. All countries have sports more popular and well paid than boxing. A fighter is a fighter, those are completely different sports to fighting. USA has loads more current pro registered boxers than any other countries go look at the boxrec ratings theres thousands upon thousands so there can't be any excuses.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:07
by gilgamesh
Goodz wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:02
Crease wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 13:48
It will
NEVER be "game over" for the United States in the sport of boxing. They have too much talent in their country and top trainers and gyms to harness it... There will always be another great fighter coming up... And another great fighter coming behind him...
If the best amateur boxers from around the world are turning pro in increasing numbers from countries that weren't usually turning professional. That's gonna have an increasing effect on USA. When America used to win gold medals in the amateurs they had much better pro fighters. . Now they never win gold medals!
You claim is theres always been great fighters coming up from America. Well since Ive been watching boxing since about 2008 theres been no great americans come on the scene at heavyweight, Cruiserweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight, Only one at Super.middle in Ward. And none that I can think of from lightweight down. From my observation it seems USAs best talent definitely mostly centres arround 147 ( from 140 to 154).
Since the eastern euros could turn pro and the Brits improved, and other countries had the occasional top fighter. It seems USA have desperately clutched onto 147 as the last division they dominate after watching all the other divisions go.
For a clear example I think when I first started watching boxing. Light Heavyweight was dominated by Tarver, Hopkins, Jones Jr, Dawson. Well nowadays its Beterbiev, Bivol, Kovalev, Gvozdyk..
You say only one at Super Middle in Ward, but neglect to mention that he's pretty much considered one of the VERY BEST ever at Super Middleweight. It's pretty much the consensus that the top 2 all time at 168 are him and Joe Calzaghe. So that's not too shabby an accomplishment in recent times.
The Trends in Boxing Waxes and Wanes like the Phases of the Moon. We have great fighters in more weight classes than just 147 or 154. There will be great American fighters again. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. There will be more great European Fighters too.
Boxing is an individual sport. Great individual athletes come from all corners of the Earth. That's not going to change.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:10
by The Gratest
gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:40
The Gratest wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:08
That's true Gil, the US is very much dominant (belts) in the central weight classes, but not so much at higher weight classes and below Feather.
Historically the US has had a stranglehold on the Heavyweight division. It's only in recent times that the balance of power has shifted to Europe. Which is a good thing I'd say. If one side always dominates it's not truly a World Sport. I'm glad to see European Fighters becoming more and more prominent personally.
Below Featherweight there aren't nearly as many Americans yes because Americans generally don't tend to be that small. There are some, but most Americans just aren't that small. The smallest weight classes tend to be filled with Latino and Asian fighters for the most part, Americans and Europeans are there on occasion though.
I know man, i've been following boxing since the late 80's. A fanatic during the 90's/00's but not so much now due to life and family commitments.
My main point though is, don't deny a man the chance to have a little fun on a boring, crappy, wet, cold March day.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:13
by gilgamesh
Goodz wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:07
Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:59
It is no secret the best athletes go to american football, basketball and baseball. However 147 fighters and mw for that matter are generally to small for those sports so i wonder if that is why the US has a glut of good fighters around that weight
that argument has been ridiculed, laughed and debunked over and over many years ago. Most stupid excuse ever. All countries have sports more popular and well paid than boxing. A fighter is a fighter, those are completely different sports to fighting. USA has loads more current pro registered boxers than any other countries go look at the boxrec ratings theres thousands upon thousands so there can't be any excuses.
There don't need to be.
Do you value a countries worth based on their Boxers?
As long as Boxing continues to exist great fighters will continue to come from countries that value the sport. That's all there is to say about this.
American Fight fans tend to respect International Boxers when they're good and provide entertainment. Maybe you could work on that for yourself.
Roberto Duran and Manny Pacquiao aren't Americans, but they're beloved here by Fight fans. I would think a great deal of the world feels the same about Ali and Mike Tyson.
It's a tough sport, and the ones who are able to do it exceptionally are worthy of your respect. Wherever they're from.
Best USA fighters of the last Decade?
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:18
by Goodz
Floyd Mayweather -Welterweight
Andre Ward - Super Middleweight
Shane Mosley - Welterweight
Timothy Bradley - Welterweight
Terence Crawford - Welterweight
Errol Spence- Welterweight
Mikey Garcia - Welterweight
Robert Guerrero - Welterweight
Adrien Broner - Welterweight
Danny Garcia - welterweight
Keith Thurnan - Welterweight
Seems to be a clear trend that the best USA fighters are extremely centred around 147lbs.
Re: Best USA fighters of the last Decade?
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:31
by gilgamesh
Goodz wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:18
Floyd Mayweather -Welterweight
Andre Ward - Super Middleweight
Shane Mosley - Welterweight
Timothy Bradley - Welterweight
Terence Crawford - Welterweight
Errol Spence- Welterweight
Mikey Garcia - Welterweight
Robert Guerrero - Welterweight
Adrien Broner - Welterweight
Danny Garcia - welterweight
Keith Thurnan - Welterweight
Seems to be a clear trend that the best USA fighters are extremely centred around 147lbs.
Adrien Broner ain't one of the best American fighters of the last decade. I'd put Wilder and Gary Russell ahead of him.
Re: Best USA fighters of the last Decade?
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:33
by gilgamesh
Also. At this point it's clear that your intent on posting is to troll people. So goodbye.
Re: Best USA fighters of the last Decade?
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:37
by Enlightened-One
Goodz wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:18
Floyd Mayweather -Welterweight
Andre Ward - Super Middleweight
Shane Mosley - Welterweight
Timothy Bradley - Welterweight
Terence Crawford - Welterweight
Errol Spence- Welterweight
Mikey Garcia - Welterweight
Robert Guerrero - Welterweight
Adrien Broner - Welterweight
Danny Garcia - welterweight
Keith Thurnan - Welterweight
Seems to be a clear trend that the best USA fighters are extremely centred around 147lbs.
I’m guessing this is a fishing expedition, hoping someone will take the bait with your trolling threads, but most of the fighters you classified as being “welterweights” actually achieved most of their career accomplishments below 147lbs.
Just saying, since I appreciate you won’t bother fact-checking.
Re: Best USA fighters of the last Decade?
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 16:38
by gilgamesh
Enlightened-One wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:37
Goodz wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:18
Floyd Mayweather -Welterweight
Andre Ward - Super Middleweight
Shane Mosley - Welterweight
Timothy Bradley - Welterweight
Terence Crawford - Welterweight
Errol Spence- Welterweight
Mikey Garcia - Welterweight
Robert Guerrero - Welterweight
Adrien Broner - Welterweight
Danny Garcia - welterweight
Keith Thurnan - Welterweight
Seems to be a clear trend that the best USA fighters are extremely centred around 147lbs.
I’m guessing this is a fishing expedition, hoping someone will take the bait with your trolling threads, but most of the fighters you classified as being “welterweights” actually achieved most of their career accomplishments below 147lbs.
Just saying, since I appreciate you won’t bother fact-checking.
He's been branded a troll, and given the axe. This has been the nature of every single post he's made, and since it's obvious trolling is his one and only goal here. He's not needed.
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 17:57
by Jeff_lacy_ko
Goodz wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:07
Jeff_lacy_ko wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 15:59
It is no secret the best athletes go to american football, basketball and baseball. However 147 fighters and mw for that matter are generally to small for those sports so i wonder if that is why the US has a glut of good fighters around that weight
that argument has been ridiculed, laughed and debunked over and over many years ago. Most stupid excuse ever. All countries have sports more popular and well paid than boxing. A fighter is a fighter, those are completely different sports to fighting. USA has loads more current pro registered boxers than any other countries go look at the boxrec ratings theres thousands upon thousands so there can't be any excuses.
Oh. That changes EVERYTHING
Re: Best USA fighters of the last Decade?
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 19:21
by margaret thatcher
gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:33
Also. At this point it's clear that your intent on posting is to troll people. So goodbye.
muricans shook
Re: Best USA fighters of the last Decade?
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 19:26
by gilgamesh
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 19:21
gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:33
Also. At this point it's clear that your intent on posting is to troll people. So goodbye.
muricans shook
He had 49 posts, and every single one of them was of this same nature. Eastern Euro's taking over. Americans losing their grip on Boxing. All of America's good fighters are Welterweights. It was pretty clear he had nothing else to offer the forum. Or at least no intention of giving it.
My favorite fighter of the last decade was Gennady Golovkin so I certainly don't oppose guys from that region having success in this sport. I love watching Golovkin fight, and hope to see many more like him.
Re: Best USA fighters of the last Decade?
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 21:15
by Jeff_lacy_ko
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 19:21
gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Mar 2021, 16:33
Also. At this point it's clear that your intent on posting is to troll people. So goodbye.
muricans shook
I know my biggest fear isnt death of myself, but the death of the US dominance at welterweight. As soon as that ends we are done as a country. Our love of shawn porter keeps us united
Re: When America loses the Welterweight division it is officially game over for USA in pro boxing?.
Posted: 09 Mar 2021, 23:42
by Onetimeonly
Hard to imagine boxing prospering without America.