BoxRec

I'm going to the Hall of Fame inductions this year, so I'll get an up close and personal view of Bobby Chacon. I saw him on Real Sports a couple of years ago and it was sad, but he looked like he was very happy. Someone said be prepared to get a ton of hugs if you meet Chacon!

barry wrote:Personally, I think that the fights with McCallum and Benn were more to blame because they were both within a year and then just a little over a year that he fought the first Eubank fight and a couple months later the second. When you are in some of those types of fights it takes a long time to get over it and sometimes you just don't don't. When Carnera killed Ernie Schaaf it was more due to the beating that Max Baer gave Schaaf as opposed to the taps from Carnera.

The only guy who got damaged in the Watson v Benn fight was Benn, Watson just blocked all of Benn's wild swings, waited until Benn blew himself out then knocked seven colours of shite out of him. At least that's what I remember.

the thing is, at any given point, any fighter can suffer a brain trauma, some fighters are predisposed, like Johnny Owen, who had an abnormally thick jawbone which helped absorb the punch, but an unusually thin skull which when an uppercut drove the jawbone up into the skull cracked it and perforated the membrane around the brain.

I don't think it's an exact science, depends on the precise force, direction and point of impact of a blow, whether they are moving toward or away from it, what angle it twists the neck, so many tiny factors which cannot be measured.

I never saw the Benn-Watson bout! Benn was a brutal puncher when he connected, especially earlier in his career before he took to actual boxing. Interseting about Owen, I hadn't never heard about his skull being thin, he was a hell of a fighter.

Yeah, Owen's father mentioned it in a recent documentary where they reunited him with Lupe pintor and they buried the hatchet, it was very moving. At first Pintor acted like he didn't give a shit, but eventually broke down. He then came to Owen's hometown for a ceremony where

Poor guy, for Owen's dad the wounds were as raw as if they had just happened, and he blamed himself for not pulling his son out of the bout, it was his son though who insisted that he not be pulled out. He was still leading on the cards when the boom fell If i remember rightly.

As for Benn, yeah he was a brutal puncher, but he really hadn't learnt his trade, and was raw as sushi, by his own admission all he had faced up til that point was 'mexican road sweepers' and when he got in there with a world class fighter like Watson, he was in for a massive fornicating shock. Watson completely schooled him in what at the time was considered a big upset, because everyone outside of the boxing press thought Benn unstoppable.

I saw all of the pictures of Pintor and Owen's father and read a few articles as well as the tribute site to Owen. One of the photo's was the unveiling of Owen's statue and Pintor and Owen Sr. were together, which certainly looked emotional.

Yeah, it was a powerful piece of documentary making. At first Pintor came across as an unfeeling pudendum, he just kept saying things like 'because this happened in sport, there is beauty in it, so I do not feel guilty.' The old man thought about going home, because he said he couldn't handle seeing Pintor, but in the end it all came out. I guess it's possible Pintor just said what he thought he had to in the end, but I didn't get that impression.

James Lawton has a piece in todays Independent:


'It was always going to be a fight of a long count when they pushed Nigel Benn back into the ring from which he had been swept in the first round by a hurricane of punches from Gerald McClellan.

But then no one could have imagined that it would be McClellan, sitting in a wheelchair and locked into a deeply clouded world stirred from time to time most significantly by the sight of a savage fighting dog at work, who would be doing the counting, and that it would go on for so long, this open-ended, horrifying statement about the consequences of legalised violence.

Today it is 10 years precisely since we stood at the ringside and considered the possibility of boxing's ultimate horror: death in the ring.

Though McClellan might not agree, those who argue that life without some measurable quality is not worth even a flickering candle, might say that it would have been better if McClellan had slipped away as he lay on the canvas, but it was a nuance of reflection not available that night in the London Arena.

Nothing quite prepares you for such a swift descent into those tests of conscience which come as inevitably as the darkness of night to those of us who cannot shake the dramas and the character offered by the prizefight. So you stood there, close up to the battle for a man's place on the planet, and you were as appalled as those who waited for doctors to turn off the life support for the frail, quiet young Welshman Johnny Owen, after he was spat upon by some crazed supporters of Lupe Pintor as he was carried on a stretcher from the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles.

His unforgettable epitaph was provided by Hugh McIlvanney before the hospital switch-off: "It is his tragedy that he found himself articulate in such a dangerous language." Now, 15 years later, the agony was for a much less vulnerable fighter. Indeed, McClellan, from Illinois, was widely rated boxing's best pound-for-pounder when he came to London to dispute the World Boxing Council super-middleweight title.

That was part of the shock. And later, after hours of monitoring McClellan's condition after the brilliant work of the distinguished surgeon John Sutcliffe at the Royal London Hospital, it was the unlikelihood of his demise that had to heighten all reactions to the trauma.

Then you had to bury all that deep attachment to the sport which had given us Ali and Louis, Robinson and Armstrong, Leonard and Duran, and say something like this, "When they gave Gerald McClellan his fourth injection in the corner of that zoo of a ring, when they put the brace on his neck and the oxygen mask to his face, when all the demons of a brutal business crowded in, you were left with the question that will never go away. It was just this: How long can the old game go on?" Of course, you could have asked that question at any time in the bloody history of the ring; certainly at least 17 times in the preceding 23 years. That was the number of boxing-related deaths.

One of the fatalities was the young British fighter Bradley Stone, on whose behalf the surgeon Sutcliffe had also applied all his skill. In the dawn of saving something of McClellan's life, Sutcliffe kept hold of his emotions and said: "Naturally, at a time like this, feelings run high, but I just don't think it is for the medical profession to ban boxing. In the end I suppose it will be for the public to decide." Or maybe the politicians, as they have in the case of fox hunting. Maybe they care more for foxes than fighters, but for some of the rest of us there will always be a terrible ambivalence when we go to the fights.

That doubt is always at its height in the wake of a McClellan episode. When an uncelebrated Korean lightweight, the son of a fisherman, was beaten to death in Las Vegas, his mother flew to a strange land and wept in despair before the cameras. But she also said: "I know that nothing could have stopped my son being a fighter. He loved the sport so much." But then the sheer, atavistic force of the McClellan-Benn collision ensured that doubts would run as deeply in this country as they had ever done both inside and out of the sport.

Even the then secretary of the British Boxing Board of Control, John Morris, admitted he had been shocked into the deepest apprehension by the frenzied level of some of the exchanges. He said at ringside: "Ten rounds of ferocity within the rules like this is incredible. When I watch a fight like that I always have a nagging worry for the boxers. They know the risks, they know what they are doing, but it would be wrong if the people who administer the sport don't worry for them."

The late Harry Mullin, editor of Boxing News, shook his head and said: "It is increasingly difficult to justify boxing." The promoter allegedly, on hearing the first medical reports of McClellan's condition, said: "It's gutting. It's the last thing you want."

Naturally, the abolitionists were in full flight. James Tye, the director of the British Safety Council, urged the government to ban this "so-called" sport. The Labour MP Sam Galbraith, a surgeon, said: "We have to ask why in a civilised society we allow people to pay to see men damaging each other's brains." It was, and this brought another degree of guilt when you thought about it, a stupendous fight, one to rank in intensity with any you had seen. In this category it had to be placed alongside Hearns-Leonard I, Ali-Shavers, Hagler-Hearns, Bowe-Holyfield I.

Before Sugar Ray turned around the fight, when he was taking a stream of measured punches from the "Detroit Hitman", his wife, Juanita, repeatedly jumped from her seat and cried out, "No more, baby - after this, no more." When Ali came back into the dressing-room at Madison Square Garden, a points winner despite being rocked so hard by the man from Ohio it felt as though the foundations of the building were shaking, he screamed that the lights be turned off. He said they were like needles in his eyes.

After the three rounds of Hagler-Hearns, the novelist Budd Schulberg, sat down at ringside after Hearns, his legs like reeds blowing in the wind, had been carried away, and said: "Outside of war, I never expected to see anything so intense." In his first fight with Bowe, Holyfield, outgunned, erupted in the 11th round, and his opponent said later: "I didn't know any fighter had so much inside him." Then, of course, there was the "Thriller in Manila", when Eddie Futch ordered Joe Frazier to stay on his stool and Ali said: "We were near to death."

The key element in the progress of McClellan-Benn to that hazardous point was the resilience of Benn. Already the man billed as the "Dark Destroyer" had defined himself most courageously in defeat rather than victory. Once, when rendered virtually defenceless by Chris Eubank, he stuck out his chin and said: "Come on, let's see what you got, you wanker..." He had been dismantled by Michael Watson, before that fine fighter's life became a heroic battle against tragic damage in the ring.

Against the superbly equipped McClellan, Benn had the easiest of options after that first breathtaking assault by the American. He could have delayed just a little longer his return to the ring. Instead, he came to wage attrition, a resolve that was maintained despite going down again in the eighth. But that was the last of McClellan's resources. When he was knocked known in the 10th round the fight was unquestionably over. As the paramedics fought for his life, as they brought in the oxygen cylinder and the neck brace and the doctors looked at each other with expressions that did not require words, suddenly the act of breathing, even for the witnesses, became a chore.

It is so easy to remember that discomfort now. However much you admired the performance of Benn, you never went so soberly back into the night. You can almost hear your own footsteps as you wonder quite what Gerald McClellan might give to say that.'

silkov wrote:Loftgroov do us all a favour and go back to bed.

Wasn't this in response to a series of posts OVER A WEEK AGO? You're fornicating quick my boy...

Rather than leave a dead argument dead...Why not add a twatty comment? Nice one Silkov

Asario couldn't even speak english.

10 years ago today.........................................hard to believe it's been that long.

Yep that French ref was very poor - wonder what he thinks about his performance that night, these days. You'd think it might weigh heavily on his conscience.

As for Watson/Benn - Benn didn't get through with many that night. Michael did an almost perfect imitation of Ali's rope a dope and boxed brilliantly. The McCallum loss was a tough one though......

McClellan took some frightening punches in the first Jackson fight - the type of punches that would've left most normal people unconcious for around 5 minutes. He was complaining of headaches after that fight, and it's no wonder....

You could say that somewhere along the line, McClellan was going to run into grief, he wasn't exactly a defensive genius and took far too many big shots flush.

Whether that meant him having a short career or problems in later life, I think he was destined to get a shooeing from someone or other.

What amazes me is how on earth Jake LaMotta can still be so lucid, the guy got one of the worst pastings ever from Robinson, and was known throughout his career for being able to take a shot. I think his reputation as a'catcher' is a bit overstated, from what I've seen of him he wasn't that bad defensively.

Watched Hagler Mugabi the other night, fornicate me did he get a bloody mullering. He was hitting Hagler with everything he had, to absolutely no effect, and got it back with interest.

Hagler sure looked tired at the end though.

I watched highlights of Hagler v Leonard too, blimey O'Reilly that was a good performance from Leonard, he may not have hurt Hagler, but he stopped him in his tracks in some points, he hits him with a 8 punch combination at one point, and Hagler is just frozen on the spot unable to respond.

Hagler looked old and weary that night, he just couldn't get the shots off. No wonder I suppose, he had been fighting for 14 years by that point.

Wasn't there some talk about Hagler actually being older than he claimed?

jamesmcdonnell wrote:You could say that somewhere along the line, McClellan was going to run into grief, he wasn't exactly a defensive genius and took far too many big shots flush.

Whether that meant him having a short career or problems in later life, I think he was destined to get a shooeing from someone or other.

What amazes me is how on earth Jake LaMotta can still be so lucid, the guy got one of the worst pastings ever from Robinson, and was known throughout his career for being able to take a shot. I think his reputation as a'catcher' is a bit overstated, from what I've seen of him he wasn't that bad defensively.

Watched Hagler Mugabi the other night, fornicate me did he get a bloody mullering. He was hitting Hagler with everything he had, to absolutely no effect, and got it back with interest.

Hagler sure looked tired at the end though.

I watched highlights of Hagler v Leonard too, blimey O'Reilly that was a good performance from Leonard, he may not have hurt Hagler, but he stopped him in his tracks in some points, he hits him with a 8 punch combination at one point, and Hagler is just frozen on the spot unable to respond.

Hagler looked old and weary that night, he just couldn't get the shots off. No wonder I suppose, he had been fighting for 14 years by that point.

Wasn't there some talk about Hagler actually being older than he claimed?

Yep, you have to say, LaMotta is a walking, talking miracle.

That must be round 9 you're talking about there - Leonard put on a masterclass IMO. I made him the winner that night, but I know people who will say to their dying day that Marv won...just one of those results that splits fight fans down the middle.

As well as agreeing to Leonard's insistance that it be a 12 rounder, rather than a 15 rounder, Hagler's management also gave in in to a bigger ring, plus gloves ( I think ) that favoured a boxer rather than a puncher ( ie, not Reyes gloves ) might be wrong on that point though..

jamesmcdonnell wrote:You could say that somewhere along the line, McClellan was going to run into grief, he wasn't exactly a defensive genius and took far too many big shots flush.

Whether that meant him having a short career or problems in later life, I think he was destined to get a shooeing from someone or other.

What amazes me is how on earth Jake LaMotta can still be so lucid, the guy got one of the worst pastings ever from Robinson, and was known throughout his career for being able to take a shot. I think his reputation as a'catcher' is a bit overstated, from what I've seen of him he wasn't that bad defensively.

Watched Hagler Mugabi the other night, fornicate me did he get a bloody mullering. He was hitting Hagler with everything he had, to absolutely no effect, and got it back with interest.

Hagler sure looked tired at the end though.

I watched highlights of Hagler v Leonard too, blimey O'Reilly that was a good performance from Leonard, he may not have hurt Hagler, but he stopped him in his tracks in some points, he hits him with a 8 punch combination at one point, and Hagler is just frozen on the spot unable to respond.

Hagler looked old and weary that night, he just couldn't get the shots off. No wonder I suppose, he had been fighting for 14 years by that point.

Wasn't there some talk about Hagler actually being older than he claimed?

Lamotta actually had a lot of defensive skills... would bob and weave... block punches with his shoulders and he always had his chin tucked into his chest.
Hagler was originally said to be about 28 when he fought Minter which would have made him about 35 in the Leonard bout. I think the Mugubi fight finished Hagler really.

dunno if it has been mentioned in this thread or before but Gerald apparently collapsed in the gym before the bout .....

silkov wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:You could say that somewhere along the line, McClellan was going to run into grief, he wasn't exactly a defensive genius and took far too many big shots flush.

Whether that meant him having a short career or problems in later life, I think he was destined to get a shooeing from someone or other.

What amazes me is how on earth Jake LaMotta can still be so lucid, the guy got one of the worst pastings ever from Robinson, and was known throughout his career for being able to take a shot. I think his reputation as a'catcher' is a bit overstated, from what I've seen of him he wasn't that bad defensively.

Watched Hagler Mugabi the other night, fornicate me did he get a bloody mullering. He was hitting Hagler with everything he had, to absolutely no effect, and got it back with interest.

Hagler sure looked tired at the end though.

I watched highlights of Hagler v Leonard too, blimey O'Reilly that was a good performance from Leonard, he may not have hurt Hagler, but he stopped him in his tracks in some points, he hits him with a 8 punch combination at one point, and Hagler is just frozen on the spot unable to respond.

Hagler looked old and weary that night, he just couldn't get the shots off. No wonder I suppose, he had been fighting for 14 years by that point.

Wasn't there some talk about Hagler actually being older than he claimed?

Lamotta actually had a lot of defensive skills... would bob and weave... block punches with his shoulders and he always had his chin tucked into his chest.
Hagler was originally said to be about 28 when he fought Minter which would have made him about 35 in the Leonard bout. I think the Mugubi fight finished Hagler really.

Hagler did look very old in the Mugabi fight, towards the end he was very arm weary, but he pushed and pushed himself. He was lucky Mugabi was so raw and that he himself had such a good chin, because he looked slow and easy to hit that night. That was the fight where Hagler finally just looked like a brawler.

Yes, Hagler conceded every possible advantage to Leonard, though to be honest even if it went 15, Hagler looked pretty shattered by the end.

Leonard actually planted his feet a lot more than I remembered, and he was willing to stand and trade with Hagler for spots, which shows what a brave bloke he was.

Having watched Hagler v Hearns again, I have to say that Manny's contention that there was something up with Hearns before the fight looks to be true. Tommy looks to be on very stiff legs right from the off, and he just starts a war with Hagler from the off, with no attempt at boxing. When he does try and move, his legs just don't look to be there at all. Maybe that really is why he went shit or bust to try and bomb Hagler out of there.

I still don't think he could have won that fight no matter what though, his movement just wasn't good enough, and he just couldn't have stopped Marvin.