BoxRec

Controversial wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 10:35 I've only just realised that Rivas was heavier than Usyk in his bridgerweight fight, than Usyk was against AJ

And now you see why 90% of us are going WTF we don't need or want it.

KiwiRider wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 13:29

Controversial wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 10:35 I've only just realised that Rivas was heavier than Usyk in his bridgerweight fight, than Usyk was against AJ

And now you see why 90% of us are going WTF we don't need or want it.

Controversial wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 10:35 I've only just realised that Rivas was heavier than Usyk in his bridgerweight fight, than Usyk was against AJ

Which has been my point since always. Joe Louis was lighter too, so was Ali, so was Rocky Marciano, so was Jack Dempsey, so was Mike Tyson, so was Sonny Liston.

In fact once upon a time people's arguments would've been the exact opposite. When Joe Louis ran roughshod through Buddy Baer, and Max Baer destroyed Primo Carnera the prevailing thought of the day was that these big behemoths weren't athletic or mobile enough to compete at the highest level.

There's always exceptions to the rule. That doesn't mean change the f*cking rule because of the exception.

Controversial wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 10:35 I've only just realised that Rivas was heavier than Usyk in his bridgerweight fight, than Usyk was against AJ

To add to that, Joshua himself was 240 lbs for his last fight and 237 lbs Vs Ruiz, and that'd be fed and watered.
There's no question a cut to 224 lbs would be relatively easy for him.

Tony Bellew, one of the main proponents of Bridgerweight (inadvertently) described it best. ""Bridgerweight is for fighters who aren't good enough for Heavyweight..............I mean aren't big enough for Heavyweight"

It's for lazy Cruiserweights who don't want to make weight, and Heavyweights who aren't good enough to compete at the top end.

Not only is Usyk the 2nd best Heavyweight we have right now, Michael Hunter is one of the main contenders aswell.
Bridgerweight is simply unnecessary.

BigEars wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 18:19

Controversial wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 10:35 I've only just realised that Rivas was heavier than Usyk in his bridgerweight fight, than Usyk was against AJ

To add to that, Joshua himself was 240 lbs for his last fight and 237 lbs Vs Ruiz, and that'd be fed and watered.
There's no question a cut to 224 lbs would be relatively easy for him.

Tony Bellew, one of the main proponents of Bridgerweight (inadvertently) described it best. ""Bridgerweight is for fighters who aren't good enough for Heavyweight..............I mean aren't big enough for Heavyweight"

It's for lazy Cruiserweights who don't want to make weight, and Heavyweights who aren't good enough to compete at the top end.

Not only is Usyk the 2nd best Heavyweight we have right now, Michael Hunter is one of the main contenders aswell.
Bridgerweight is simply unnecessary.

Parker could make Badgerweight, and so could Ruiz after a gastric bypass

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 14:15

KiwiRider wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 13:29

Controversial wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 10:35 I've only just realised that Rivas was heavier than Usyk in his bridgerweight fight, than Usyk was against AJ

And now you see why 90% of us are going WTF we don't need or want it.

Of course, it’s entirely reasonable to assert that one of the 22 instances (from 265 world heavyweight title bouts) of small fighters weighing 225lbs or less beating an opponent weighing at least 20lbs heavier than themselves happens all the time!

But what do I know, I only listed all the stats that no one could refute, but hey… it if you guys see it happening once, then it must be happening all the time!

I'm sure the higher the skill level is the harder it becomes for a smaller man to climb over the hurdle, but when you are at first/second tiersman and journeyman and trial horse level you definitely see more often smaller guys beating men who outweigh them by 20 or more pounds.

Not to mention how many times smaller guys may kick somebody's butt in the gym sparring who is much bigger than them but the public doesn't get to see that all too often.

SportsRatings wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 13:26 Calling Cruiserweight a popular weight class is a bit of a stretch. It's never been a big deal outside of boxing fans.

And it's taken 40 years to even get to this level. The most respect Cruiserweight gets? When the champ moves up to take on the Heavyweights. If you don't do that, your name is almost forgotten. What casual fans know about Marco Huck, compared to David Haye or Usyk? Huck never made waves at heavyweight is the difference.

Bridgerweight would take the same amount of time to establish itself. So in 2060 people will say "Bridgerweight is a beloved division" and others will say "Really? Only the guys who also fight at heavyweight are well-known...the rest are just barely more popular than the Cruiserweights"

I'd say cruiserweight is as popular as most other divisions, I mean which other has (recently) given us an elimination series involving most of the top contenders fighting each other to determine an undisputed champion? Ok so the champion wasted little time moving up to heavyweight but that's another of my points, that if you believe you are good enough then you will fight in the heavyweight division, irrespective.

As for the casuals, it seems to me they know very little about weight classes, they're more interested in the fighters individually: do they have star potential?, are they from my area or at least my country?, can they excite and retain my interest?, are they someone I can identity with and get behind? Being a heavyweight helps, beyond that I don't think most make any distinction about weight-class, if that is not too sweeping a generalization.

There have always been examples of heavyweights being beaten by significantly smaller men. That isn't going to change and bridgerweight isn't going to make any difference to that.

I like to watch the best fight the best but that is not an everyday occurrence (there's a bit of good old British understatement for you there). If I can't have that I want to see two evenly matched fighters, or a fight where I have no idea who is going to win (especially when I'm familiar with both fighters and still have no idea). I don't give a flying one what label you want to stick on the fight (" WBZ Emerald Junior light super-featherweight title" Oh do f*@% off) what I care about are interesting match-ups, and I see a lot of potential for really intriguing match-ups at bridgerweight between good fighters who are not either big enough or good enough to overcome an elite heavyweight.

I don't know what you do for a living but how would you feel if company policy only recognized and rewarded the very best performers at what you do, and those who are extremely good but not the best, can go f*@% themselves, never mind those who are satisfactory to well above average?

Let's be real: bridgerweight will always be a haven for fighters that cannot or would not make it at heavyweight but that doesn't mean it won't give us some great fights that wouldn't otherwise (i.e. without bridgerweight) have any reason to get made. That'll do for me ... Rivas v Gassiev... mmmmm.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 21:39

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 14:15

KiwiRider wrote: ↑06 Nov 2021, 13:29

And now you see why 90% of us are going WTF we don't need or want it.

Of course, it’s entirely reasonable to assert that one of the 22 instances (from 265 world heavyweight title bouts) of small fighters weighing 225lbs or less beating an opponent weighing at least 20lbs heavier than themselves happens all the time!

But what do I know, I only listed all the stats that no one could refute, but hey… it if you guys see it happening once, then it must be happening all the time!

Name me 5 Cruiserweight stars.

Sure there's been lots of fighters that have passed through the weight class. Name me the ones that have actually become a marketable big name star in the sport.

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑02 Nov 2021, 09:41

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑02 Nov 2021, 08:42

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑02 Nov 2021, 07:36
“Exceptions” to the general rule occurs in all walks of life, otherwise the word itself wouldn’t exist.

However, “exceptions” can’t be used to dismiss the existence of the general rule.

It’s inaccurate to claim that small heavyweights regularly defeat their much larger counterparts, because it’s historically and statistically inaccurate.

For the vast majority of topics, every single one of us are capable of citing exceptions to common opinions/rules, but only those intentionally employing confirmation bias actively refuse to acknowledge the existence of the general rule itself (despite it being supported by an overwhelming abundance of evidence).

All good and fine, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people who go into boxing regardless of weight class come up short and don't succeed.

I think people assume that it's a matter of exceptions to the rule, when smaller men beat bigger men, but the fact is VERY FEW people in boxing period are any good at all no matter their size.

I can list numerous examples of men who were much smaller than fighters today who regularly beat 200+ pound men: Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Bob Fitzsimmons, Archie Moore, etc.

The truth is, when people look at everything objectively, if you took Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko brothers and Tyson Fury of the picture (the last 25 years or so) there are plenty of examples of smaller men hanging with the big guys--- because bigger does not necessarily mean better.

In fact you can make the argument that being big in and of itself is a weakness. A big target. Hunter vs Ustinov in recent years is a good example of that (213 pounds vs 278 pounds), or even Adamek vs McBride (215 pounds vs 285 pounds), etc--- and these are men who were light heavyweights in the amateurs.

Again going back to Joey Dawejko, who certainly isn't world-class. He had a DRAW with 6'4" 286 pound Jarrell Miller. Dawejko is 5'10" with a 70" reach. It's doable, it's possible. People just want to be lazy at heavyweight.

It's interesting to see people pretending they can name plenty examples of x, y & z... they can also do this... and they can do that... but without actually delivering upon their promises.

I can go one better by providing the actual stats for every single world heavyweight title fight from the last 57½ years.

List of bouts where the smaller fighter weighed 225lbs or less that defeated an opponent in a world title fight that were at least 20lbs heavier than themselves:

• Deontay Wilder (223.25lbs) - Win - Dominic Breazeale (255.25lbs)
• Deontay Wilder (214.75lbs) - Win - Luis Ortiz (241.25lbs)
• Deontay Wilder (220.75lbs) - Win - Bermane Stiverne (254.75lbs)
• Deontay Wilder (219lbs) - Win - Bermane Stiverne (239lbs)
• David Haye (210.5lbs) - Win - Audley Harrison (253.5lbs)
• David Haye (217lbs) - Win - Nikolai Valuev (316lbs)
• Sultan Ibragimov (221lbs) - Win - Shannon Briggs (273lbs)
• Lamon Brewster (224lbs) - Win - Andrew Golota (248lbs)
• Chris Byrd (214lbs) - Win - Jameel McCline (270lbs)
• Roy Jones Jr (193lbs) - Win - John Ruiz (226lbs)
• Chris Byrd (210.75lbs) - Win - Vitali Klitschko (244.25lbs)
• Herbie Hide (214.75lbs) - Win - Tony Tucker (243.25lbs)
• Mike Tyson (220lbs) - Win - Frank Bruno (247lbs)
• Evander Holyfield (217lbs) - Win - Riddick Bowe (246lbs)
• Evander Holyfield (210lbs) - Win - Larry Holmes (233lbs)
• Evander Holyfield (208lbs) - Win - George Foreman (257lbs)
• Evander Holyfield (208lbs) - Win - James Douglas (246lbs)
• Mike Tyson (216.25lbs) - Win - Tony Tubbs (238.25lbs)
• Michael Spinks (199.75lbs) - Win - Larry Holmes (221.5lbs)
• Mike Weaver (207.5lbs) - Win - John Tate (232lbs)
• Larry Holmes (211lbs) - Win - Leroy Jones (254.5lbs)
• Leon Spinks (197.25lbs) - Win - Muhammad Ali (224.25lbs)

And as I've already previously stated, this covers a time period spanning 57½ years (since the first Ali-Liston bout).

There have been 265 world heavyweight title fights during that timeframe.

Superb post and thanks for the detailed info. Not a fan of the new weight class but it's happening. 210lbs high limit would be more acceptable, to me. The current Cruiserweights are 15lbs Heavier than Rocky Marciano (185lbs) but I agree that the likes of the names you've listed, are more than capable, of dealing with today's Heavyweights.

WelshDevil wrote: ↑07 Nov 2021, 15:06

Enlightened-One wrote: ↑02 Nov 2021, 09:41

HomicideHenry wrote: ↑02 Nov 2021, 08:42

All good and fine, but the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people who go into boxing regardless of weight class come up short and don't succeed.

I think people assume that it's a matter of exceptions to the rule, when smaller men beat bigger men, but the fact is VERY FEW people in boxing period are any good at all no matter their size.

I can list numerous examples of men who were much smaller than fighters today who regularly beat 200+ pound men: Harry Greb, Mickey Walker, Bob Fitzsimmons, Archie Moore, etc.

The truth is, when people look at everything objectively, if you took Lennox Lewis and the Klitschko brothers and Tyson Fury of the picture (the last 25 years or so) there are plenty of examples of smaller men hanging with the big guys--- because bigger does not necessarily mean better.

In fact you can make the argument that being big in and of itself is a weakness. A big target. Hunter vs Ustinov in recent years is a good example of that (213 pounds vs 278 pounds), or even Adamek vs McBride (215 pounds vs 285 pounds), etc--- and these are men who were light heavyweights in the amateurs.

Again going back to Joey Dawejko, who certainly isn't world-class. He had a DRAW with 6'4" 286 pound Jarrell Miller. Dawejko is 5'10" with a 70" reach. It's doable, it's possible. People just want to be lazy at heavyweight.

It's interesting to see people pretending they can name plenty examples of x, y & z... they can also do this... and they can do that... but without actually delivering upon their promises.

I can go one better by providing the actual stats for every single world heavyweight title fight from the last 57½ years.

List of bouts where the smaller fighter weighed 225lbs or less that defeated an opponent in a world title fight that were at least 20lbs heavier than themselves:

• Deontay Wilder (223.25lbs) - Win - Dominic Breazeale (255.25lbs)
• Deontay Wilder (214.75lbs) - Win - Luis Ortiz (241.25lbs)
• Deontay Wilder (220.75lbs) - Win - Bermane Stiverne (254.75lbs)
• Deontay Wilder (219lbs) - Win - Bermane Stiverne (239lbs)
• David Haye (210.5lbs) - Win - Audley Harrison (253.5lbs)
• David Haye (217lbs) - Win - Nikolai Valuev (316lbs)
• Sultan Ibragimov (221lbs) - Win - Shannon Briggs (273lbs)
• Lamon Brewster (224lbs) - Win - Andrew Golota (248lbs)
• Chris Byrd (214lbs) - Win - Jameel McCline (270lbs)
• Roy Jones Jr (193lbs) - Win - John Ruiz (226lbs)
• Chris Byrd (210.75lbs) - Win - Vitali Klitschko (244.25lbs)
• Herbie Hide (214.75lbs) - Win - Tony Tucker (243.25lbs)
• Mike Tyson (220lbs) - Win - Frank Bruno (247lbs)
• Evander Holyfield (217lbs) - Win - Riddick Bowe (246lbs)
• Evander Holyfield (210lbs) - Win - Larry Holmes (233lbs)
• Evander Holyfield (208lbs) - Win - George Foreman (257lbs)
• Evander Holyfield (208lbs) - Win - James Douglas (246lbs)
• Mike Tyson (216.25lbs) - Win - Tony Tubbs (238.25lbs)
• Michael Spinks (199.75lbs) - Win - Larry Holmes (221.5lbs)
• Mike Weaver (207.5lbs) - Win - John Tate (232lbs)
• Larry Holmes (211lbs) - Win - Leroy Jones (254.5lbs)
• Leon Spinks (197.25lbs) - Win - Muhammad Ali (224.25lbs)

And as I've already previously stated, this covers a time period spanning 57½ years (since the first Ali-Liston bout).

There have been 265 world heavyweight title fights during that timeframe.

Superb post and thanks for the detailed info. Not a fan of the new weight class but it's happening. 210lbs high limit would be more acceptable, to me. The current Cruiserweights are 15lbs Heavier than Rocky Marciano (185lbs) but I agree that the likes of the names you've listed, are more than capable, of dealing with today's Heavyweights.

Only happening with one Org so far.
The rest may follow as they are proven greedy bastards. But for now only one.