BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 14:51 Did he quit?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Feb 2022, 11:40 No I don't. The only one that I ever use of the ones that you mentioned is the top one about Ali's exile. Obviously a guy can't be off for 3 and half years and come back and be the same.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 14:00

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 14:51 Did he quit?

Yes, so what?

Did he kicked Sugar Ray's ass? Yes!
Coming from Lightweight? Yes!
Was Sugar Ray faster, bigger and stronger? Yes!
In his prime? Yes!
Was Duran the ONLY ONE to beat him in his prime? Yes!
Did you saw Sugar Ray's face before and after the fight? I guess yes, but you don't want to admit that it was an ass whupping.

Anything else?

hhaehre wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Feb 2022, 11:40 No I don't. The only one that I ever use of the ones that you mentioned is the top one about Ali's exile. Obviously a guy can't be off for 3 and half years and come back and be the same.

But a guy can prepare for a fight by partying and he will be just as good? Can't you see that not preparing is a valid explanation for a poor performance? It's no excuse as it is entirely on Duran, but it does explain his embarrassing performance wouldn't you say?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:56

hhaehre wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Feb 2022, 11:40 No I don't. The only one that I ever use of the ones that you mentioned is the top one about Ali's exile. Obviously a guy can't be off for 3 and half years and come back and be the same.

But a guy can prepare for a fight by partying and he will be just as good? Can't you see that not preparing is a valid explanation for a poor performance? It's no excuse as it is entirely on Duran, but it does explain his embarrassing performance wouldn't you say?

He lost because Leonard was too good and Duran struggled with boxers.
"The partying for 5 months against the best fighter he ever fought" is the possibly the lamest excuse in the history of boxing.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:55

elmersalsa wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 14:00

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑01 Mar 2022, 14:51 Did he quit?

Yes, so what?

Did he kicked Sugar Ray's ass? Yes!
Coming from Lightweight? Yes!
Was Sugar Ray faster, bigger and stronger? Yes!
In his prime? Yes!
Was Duran the ONLY ONE to beat him in his prime? Yes!
Did you saw Sugar Ray's face before and after the fight? I guess yes, but you don't want to admit that it was an ass whupping.

Anything else?

Did he kick Leonard's a$$ ? No. You had Duran winning by three points.
Coming from light weight? Yes, once upon a time Duran was lightweight. He was a welterweight when they fought, and had been for quite a while.
Bigger, stronger, faster? I'm sure there is point in there somewhere.
Are you really dumb? Yes.
Only one to beat Leonard in his prime? Yes I agree with that. Only thing you have said that makes sense.
Yes I saw Leonard's face? Ever see Ezzard Charles face after he easily beat Joe Louis?

Winning by three points (on your own card) is not an a$$ whupping.
You could argue that a TKO8 is.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:56

hhaehre wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:12

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑10 Feb 2022, 11:40 No I don't. The only one that I ever use of the ones that you mentioned is the top one about Ali's exile. Obviously a guy can't be off for 3 and half years and come back and be the same.

But a guy can prepare for a fight by partying and he will be just as good? Can't you see that not preparing is a valid explanation for a poor performance? It's no excuse as it is entirely on Duran, but it does explain his embarrassing performance wouldn't you say?

He lost because Leonard was too good and Duran struggled with boxers.
"The partying for 5 months against the best fighter he ever fought" is the possibly the lamest excuse in the history of boxing.

hhaehre wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 18:10

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:56

hhaehre wrote: ↑02 Mar 2022, 16:12
But a guy can prepare for a fight by partying and he will be just as good? Can't you see that not preparing is a valid explanation for a poor performance? It's no excuse as it is entirely on Duran, but it does explain his embarrassing performance wouldn't you say?

He lost because Leonard was too good and Duran struggled with boxers.
"The partying for 5 months against the best fighter he ever fought" is the possibly the lamest excuse in the history of boxing.

Are you saying he didn't party? Are you saying he trained hard and prepared for the fight?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 11:50 You think when your guy wins, it counts. When your loses, it doesn't. Says more about you than anything.
Never called you a name. You called me one.

Winning by three points on your own card is not an a$$ whipping.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 16:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 11:50 You think when your guy wins, it counts. When your loses, it doesn't. Says more about you than anything.
Never called you a name. You called me one.

Winning by three points on your own card is not an a$$ whipping.

You called me dumb. I don't appreciate that, boy!

My guy lost to Esteban de Jesus. That was the ONLY LEGIT loss that I see in Duran's prime.

Sugar Ray Robinson lost 3 times in his prime
Muhammad Ali lost once in his prime.
Sugar Ray Leonard lost once in his prime.
Thomas Hearns lost twice in his prime.

That's what I am talking about.

That "No Mas" fight was nothing but a NATIONALISTIC PLOT to get the title back to America. Quickly, if they can.

American boxing and their Golden Boy got embarrassed and humiliated, big time!

A Latin guy from Panama whupped Sugar Ray's ass from post to post. Just look at Leonard's face before and after the fight. It looked like an ass whupping to me. Just like I am kicking your ass now in these posts.

The rematch had to be done as quickly as possible. American boxing and their hero got to be redeemed. At any cost.

And it worked the $8 million dollars for the stupid and greedy management team of Duran's. They didn't care about their fighter's interests, but theirs and fell for the trap.

If Leonard was so good, why he didn't give Duran time? And why he never gave the man a rematch like Duran gave him one?

Why? Because it was already PREMEDITATED by the Sugar Ray agenda: bigger ring, get Duran to fight now, don't give a rematch, don't give him time. Fight running this time because he ain't gonna be in shape to catch you, Ray.

That's why the majority of fight fans love Duran more than Ray. Because Duran was a real fighter that fought everybody at any weight and time. Even with a "No Mas" that he didn't say, but by Sugar Ray's nuthugger Howard Cossell that never liked Duran.

Sugar Ray? He always had to had to be calculated. He always had to have the edge. He Always had to come with STIPULATIONS. His way or no way. A cherry picker at the end of his career.

Debate without name calling. Because that's your only way. Be a man, boy!

Or you want to start a name-calling post between you and me? I am ready.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 12:00 Is not preparing is a valid explanation for a poor performance? No. At all.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 16:47

elmersalsa wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 16:07

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 11:50 You think when your guy wins, it counts. When your loses, it doesn't. Says more about you than anything.
Never called you a name. You called me one.

Winning by three points on your own card is not an a$$ whipping.

You called me dumb. I don't appreciate that, boy!

My guy lost to Esteban de Jesus. That was the ONLY LEGIT loss that I see in Duran's prime.

Sugar Ray Robinson lost 3 times in his prime
Muhammad Ali lost once in his prime.
Sugar Ray Leonard lost once in his prime.
Thomas Hearns lost twice in his prime.

That's what I am talking about.

That "No Mas" fight was nothing but a NATIONALISTIC PLOT to get the title back to America. Quickly, if they can.

American boxing and their Golden Boy got embarrassed and humiliated, big time!

A Latin guy from Panama whupped Sugar Ray's ass from post to post. Just look at Leonard's face before and after the fight. It looked like an ass whupping to me. Just like I am kicking your ass now in these posts.

The rematch had to be done as quickly as possible. American boxing and their hero got to be redeemed. At any cost.

And it worked the $8 million dollars for the stupid and greedy management team of Duran's. They didn't care about their fighter's interests, but theirs and fell for the trap.

If Leonard was so good, why he didn't give Duran time? And why he never gave the man a rematch like Duran gave him one?

Why? Because it was already PREMEDITATED by the Sugar Ray agenda: bigger ring, get Duran to fight now, don't give a rematch, don't give him time. Fight running this time because he ain't gonna be in shape to catch you, Ray.

That's why the majority of fight fans love Duran more than Ray. Because Duran was a real fighter that fought everybody at any weight and time. Even with a "No Mas" that he didn't say, but by Sugar Ray's nuthugger Howard Cossell that never liked Duran.

Sugar Ray? He always had to had to be calculated. He always had to have the edge. He Always had to come with STIPULATIONS. His way or no way. A cherry picker at the end of his career.

Debate without name calling. Because that's your only way. Be a man, boy!

Or you want to start a name-calling post between you and me? I am ready.

No. Just no.

hhaehre wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 17:10

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 12:00 Is not preparing is a valid explanation for a poor performance? No. At all.

Of course it is, why wouldn't it be? If a fighter comes in fat and out of shape it's very much a valid reason for a poor performance. It's no excuse, but coming in out of shape is the reason for soooo many poor performances.

Did you for example think Ali looked good against Jimmy Young? I didn't, in fact I thought he lost the fight and the reason was clearly that he hadn't bothered to prepare properly. It's no excuse, but it explains the sub-par performance.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Mar 2022, 12:30

hhaehre wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 17:10

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑03 Mar 2022, 12:00 Is not preparing is a valid explanation for a poor performance? No. At all.

Of course it is, why wouldn't it be? If a fighter comes in fat and out of shape it's very much a valid reason for a poor performance. It's no excuse, but coming in out of shape is the reason for soooo many poor performances.

Did you for example think Ali looked good against Jimmy Young? I didn't, in fact I thought he lost the fight and the reason was clearly that he hadn't bothered to prepare properly. It's no excuse, but it explains the sub-par performance.

First of all, in Duran's case we don't even know that he didn't rain much. Urban legends and tales from the gym are usually BS.
How can any reasonable person seriously believe that Duran "partied" for 150 straight days and hardly trained? For the best opponent of his career. Come on.

More importantly, it's entirely within his control. And it used as an excuse (elmer for one, obviously uses in in this case. He needs an excuse for a Duran's loss and will take anything)

Did Ali look good against Young? Of course not. (Young fought like crap himself, but that is another issue). To a very limited degree, that subpar performance should be held against Ali. Obviously Ali (unlike Duran) was clearly past his prime so you wouldn't expect him to perform like he used to.

There are obvious problems with the crybaby excuses. (as opposed to legitimate ones)
-The fighter who gets the excuse (in this case Duran) will get rated too highly.
-The opponent that beat him (in this case Leonard) won't get credit for the his win, and will be rated lower than he should.
-It even affects other fighters who fought one of them. (i.e. DeJesus gets rated a little too high by some because of the idiotic idea that he was the "only one" that beat a prime Duran.
- Since the crybaby excuse thing is used selectively, fighters that get the benefit of the crybaby excuse tend to get rated too highly by the excuse makers, and those that don't, get lower in comparison.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑04 Mar 2022, 17:21 I'm almost afraid to ask, but I have a couple of questions for you elmer.

1. You mentioned earlier that Robinson lost three times in his prime (While Duran supposedly only lost one)
What are the three losses that Robinson lost in his prime?

2. You mentioned earlier than Hearns had two losses in his prime. What are these two losses
(I'm not even going to get into Ali)

3. You also made this point "Does Wilfred Benitez beat Duran? It's obvious that is on tape that Duran lost. But, does that make Benitez beat 10 out of 10 against him? "
With that great logic, we aren't supposed to count Duran's loss to Benitez.

Isn't it just as justifiable to say " Does Duran's win over Leonard mean that Duran would beat Leonard 10 times out of 10?"
So following your own logic, were aren't supposed to count Leonard's loss to Duran, are we?

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Mar 2022, 18:12 Wow. Ok.
Well Duran "Forever a lightweight" loses above lightweight, it doesn't count.
Even though he weighed 146.5 vs Leonard. Leonard weighed 146. Duran already have 14 fights where he weighed 140 or more. He had more fights above 135 than, Leonard. But we somehow can't count it because Duran is always a lightweight.

Then we can't count Hearn's loss to Hagler because it was at middleweight. Hearns was always a welterweight, remember?

When Ray Robinson lost to LaMotta, he really was still a welterweight. He didn't gradually bulk up and get used to the weight like Duran did with Leonard.
Robinson weighed 144.5 vs LaMotta. LaMotta weighed over 160. So guess what, we can't count it.

Robinson weighed 157.5 vs Joey Maxim. Maxim weighed 173. Guess what, we can't count it.
Robinson was a middleweight when he lost to Turpin. But remember Robins was once a welterweight champion. Therefore, we can't can't his loss to Turpin because it was a middleweight.

Using your own logic to make excuses for Duran, You can't count any of Hearns's losses except for the one to Leonard.
Can't count any of Robinsons losses. (He was always a welterweight)
Just using your own criteria.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑10 Mar 2022, 18:34

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑05 Mar 2022, 18:12 Wow. Ok.
Well Duran "Forever a lightweight" loses above lightweight, it doesn't count.
Even though he weighed 146.5 vs Leonard. Leonard weighed 146. Duran already have 14 fights where he weighed 140 or more. He had more fights above 135 than, Leonard. But we somehow can't count it because Duran is always a lightweight.

Then we can't count Hearn's loss to Hagler because it was at middleweight. Hearns was always a welterweight, remember?

When Ray Robinson lost to LaMotta, he really was still a welterweight. He didn't gradually bulk up and get used to the weight like Duran did with Leonard.
Robinson weighed 144.5 vs LaMotta. LaMotta weighed over 160. So guess what, we can't count it.

Robinson weighed 157.5 vs Joey Maxim. Maxim weighed 173. Guess what, we can't count it.
Robinson was a middleweight when he lost to Turpin. But remember Robins was once a welterweight champion. Therefore, we can't can't his loss to Turpin because it was a middleweight.

Using your own logic to make excuses for Duran, You can't count any of Hearns's losses except for the one to Leonard.
Can't count any of Robinsons losses. (He was always a welterweight)
Just using your own criteria.

And that's where you lose the whole point.

Sugar Ray Robinson lost IN HIS PRIME against the great Jake LaMotta being Robinson a welter and LaMotta a middleweight. You FORGOT that LaMotta lost to Robinson the fight before. Still, a Welterweight beat a middleweight in the middleweight prime. Plus, Robinson was tall, 5'11". It was his WEIGHT RANGE. Duran's WEIGHT RANGE was from 126 to 147lbs. Anything above 147lbs for Duran was SUICIDAL. And it showed. He was slow, couldn't move with ease, his reflexes were fading and was getting to an age of boxing when you got to consider retirement. Most boxers by REAL NATURAL STANDARDS, are DONE by the age of 30. The proof is in the pudding.

Robinson was in his prime, at 160lbs when he lost to Randy Turpin. No excuses. Turpin kicked his ass! Robinson was ACCUSTOMED TO THE WEIGHT CLASS. Duran had to accustom to the weight class to fight Leonard. Big difference.

Robinson lost to Joey Maxim at light-heavyweight. No excuses. Robinson was prime. He challenged someone bigger and stronger than he, with 0 fights at 175lbs. It was a big mistake for Robinson's part. He didn't get accustomed to the weight and he lost. Just like Duran didn't get accustomed at 154lbs with Wilfred Benitez. The DIFFERENCE between Duran and Robinson was that Duran was not in his prime nor weight against Benitez. Robinson? at least he was in his prime.

Thomas Hearns lost TWICE in his prime. In the 2 biggest fights of his career, he lost in his prime. Even if you want to come with that logic that he was a welterweight, Hearns was still PRIME. Duran against Benitez, Marvelous nor Hearns was in his prime nor in at his best weight class. That's the DIFFERENCE between Duran and Robinson.

Ezzard wrote: ↑11 Mar 2022, 04:49 Hi Elmer, I love your passion for Roberto Duran. What a great fighter. I really respect too that you bring up his fight with Benitez. Despite being a great fan you are happy to discuss his defeats.

In many ways this is his most disappointing result. Stuck in a career and emotional nadir post New Orleans, there was no spark in any of his performances. The win over Cuevas a year later marked a turning point in his fortunes. But Duran would always be hot and cold for the rest of his career.