BoxRec

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:48

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:09 They figured Leonard didn't have a chance in hell either.

Not according to some boxing writers.

Duran didn't had a prayer in his fight with Barkley. And how did he do it? It was a miracle, that's what ESPN commentator Al Bernstein and Gil Clancy said about the Duran win. Any other day, Duran doesn't beat him if they fought 10 times.

Cool story.

Beating Hagler is still the bigger win, and always will be.

Also when you say some Boxing writers gave Leonard a shot at Hagler. You mean like 1 out of 20?

Leonard was a 7 to 1 betting underdog coming into that fight.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:52

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:48

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 13:09 They figured Leonard didn't have a chance in hell either.

Not according to some boxing writers.

Duran didn't had a prayer in his fight with Barkley. And how did he do it? It was a miracle, that's what ESPN commentator Al Bernstein and Gil Clancy said about the Duran win. Any other day, Duran doesn't beat him if they fought 10 times.

Cool story.

Beating Hagler is still the bigger win, and always will be.

Also when you say some Boxing writers gave Leonard a shot at Hagler. You mean like 1 out of 20?

Leonard was a 7 to 1 betting underdog coming into that fight.

It's a bigger win in terms of a big name going into decline.

Not a big win like Duran's over Barkley. If Sugar Ray was 7 to 1 underdog, what was Duran's going into the fight?

I gave Sugar Ray a chance against Marvelous. So, did a lot of people and sportswriters. Duran didn't had a prayer going to his fight with Barkley. No shot. Barkley by KO in 6. They even made a mockery out of Duran by saying, "Barkley in 6 in a war. And please, No Mas, okay?"

Syntax Error wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 16:36

elmersalsa wrote: ↑04 Dec 2022, 17:31

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑03 Dec 2022, 13:38

I didn't make a single comment about Hagler's condition after Hearns and/or Mugabi.

Could you just clarify...... Could anyone in the top 5 beat Hagler or just anyone in general? It's OK to admit that you messed up, we all do it, it's a perfectly normal thing to happen.

Well, of the top 5 contenders, Michael Nunn would have beaten Marvelous and Sugar Ray that night.

Thomas Hearns would have beaten Marvelous the way Marvelous came to fight. Tommy would have had his revenge.

Nigel Benn, Herol Graham, Sumbu Kalambay and probably the great Mike McCallum would have beaten Marvelous. Marvelous was no where of what he was in the early 80s decade. He missed so many shots against Sugar Ray. Shots that in the early 80s, he would not miss. But, he had to fight. That's what fighters fight for. For the big paydays. And Marvelous wasn't gonna let that opportunity slip away again like in 1982

Nigel Benn beats Hagler in 1987; seriously?

I know Hagler had lost his speed by then, but he would have still been too much for a reckless novice like Benn.

And you only mention Iran Barkley? How about Michael Nunn that night? Sumbu Kalambay? Mike McCallum?

Barkley would have beaten him on that night. Not in before or after that. Marvelous looked totally trashy against Sugar Ray.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 14:26

Syntax Error wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 16:36

elmersalsa wrote: ↑04 Dec 2022, 17:31

Well, of the top 5 contenders, Michael Nunn would have beaten Marvelous and Sugar Ray that night.

Thomas Hearns would have beaten Marvelous the way Marvelous came to fight. Tommy would have had his revenge.

Nigel Benn, Herol Graham, Sumbu Kalambay and probably the great Mike McCallum would have beaten Marvelous. Marvelous was no where of what he was in the early 80s decade. He missed so many shots against Sugar Ray. Shots that in the early 80s, he would not miss. But, he had to fight. That's what fighters fight for. For the big paydays. And Marvelous wasn't gonna let that opportunity slip away again like in 1982

Nigel Benn beats Hagler in 1987; seriously?

I know Hagler had lost his speed by then, but he would have still been too much for a reckless novice like Benn.

And you only mention Iran Barkley? How about Michael Nunn that night? Sumbu Kalambay? Mike McCallum?

Barkley would have beaten him on that night. Not in before or after that. Marvelous looked totally trashy against Sugar Ray.

Barkley would not have beaten Hagler in 1987.

I realize you love Duran, and hate Leonard, but be honest at least or you lose credibility.

I prefer Duran over Leonard too as a fan. I would MUCH rather watch the career of Duran than Leonard.

But Leonard has better, more noteworthy wins than Duran. This is an indisputable fact. If you're ranking Duran over Leonard because he has like 3 or 4 times as many fights. OK, that's your argument.

When you try to twist the argument into "His wins are bigger than Leonard's"

You just come off looking like a blind fanboy.

By any measure. From any objective person. It is not debatable AT ALL. Which win is bigger. You're a man on an island by yourself here, and the sad thing is. Even YOU know you're full of sh*t. You just desperately want what you're saying to be the truth.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 14:26

Syntax Error wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 16:36

elmersalsa wrote: ↑04 Dec 2022, 17:31

Well, of the top 5 contenders, Michael Nunn would have beaten Marvelous and Sugar Ray that night.

Thomas Hearns would have beaten Marvelous the way Marvelous came to fight. Tommy would have had his revenge.

Nigel Benn, Herol Graham, Sumbu Kalambay and probably the great Mike McCallum would have beaten Marvelous. Marvelous was no where of what he was in the early 80s decade. He missed so many shots against Sugar Ray. Shots that in the early 80s, he would not miss. But, he had to fight. That's what fighters fight for. For the big paydays. And Marvelous wasn't gonna let that opportunity slip away again like in 1982

Nigel Benn beats Hagler in 1987; seriously?

I know Hagler had lost his speed by then, but he would have still been too much for a reckless novice like Benn.

And you only mention Iran Barkley? How about Michael Nunn that night? Sumbu Kalambay? Mike McCallum?

Barkley would have beaten him on that night. Not in before or after that. Marvelous looked totally trashy against Sugar Ray.

Do you mean Benn?

I only mentioned Benn because his inclusion was ludicrous.

He turned pro the year Hagler retired, so how on Earth could he have ever beaten Hagler?

I didn't mention the others because I see some merit in your arguments about those guys; they're more technical and skilful and it is those types of fighters that would have been best placed to beat a faded Hagler shorn of his handspeed.

I'm not so sold on Graham as he always managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in his biggest fights.


Barkley, as I have previously stated, just can't see it due to his aggressive nature.

Aggression was not the best fight plan against that version of Hagler because he specialised in street fighting once his speed diminished.

Also, you have to factor in Sugar Ray's performance as to why Marvin didn't look so great.

You talk about Hagler as if he was clinically dead then and whilst I agree that he wasn't in his peak, he was not as far gone as you claim.

He was made to look worse by Leonard's style and Ray not playing ball and going to war with him.

Sometimes fighters look worse than they actually are because of the way their opponent fights; see Roy Jones V James Toney for details.

Syntax Error wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 15:11

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 14:26

Syntax Error wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 16:36

Nigel Benn beats Hagler in 1987; seriously?

I know Hagler had lost his speed by then, but he would have still been too much for a reckless novice like Benn.

And you only mention Iran Barkley? How about Michael Nunn that night? Sumbu Kalambay? Mike McCallum?

Barkley would have beaten him on that night. Not in before or after that. Marvelous looked totally trashy against Sugar Ray.

Do you mean Benn?

I only mentioned Benn because his inclusion was ludicrous.

He turned pro the year Hagler retired, so how on Earth could he have ever beaten Hagler?

I didn't mention the others because I see some merit in your arguments about those guys; they're more technical and skilful and it is those types of fighters that would have been best placed to beat a faded Hagler shorn of his handspeed.

I'm not so sold on Graham as he always managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in his biggest fights.


Barkley, as I have previously stated, just can't see it due to his aggressive nature.

Aggression was not the best fight plan against that version of Hagler because he specialised in street fighting once his speed diminished.

Also, you have to factor in Sugar Ray's performance as to why Marvin didn't look so great.

You talk about Hagler as if he was clinically dead then and whilst I agree that he wasn't in his peak, he was not as far gone as you claim.

He was made to look worse by Leonard's style and Ray not playing ball and going to war with him.

Sometimes fighters look worse than they actually are because of the way their opponent fights; see Roy Jones V James Toney for details.

Marvelous just like he missed wild punches with Sugar Ray, the same would have been against the others.

I have never said that Barkley beats Marvelous. But, on that night, Marvelous looked awfully bad for his standards. Any top 5 contender of that time would have beaten him the way he came to fight. Marvelous KNEW that it was time to hang it up. But, he didn't want to leave without fighting Sugar Ray because that was THE MONEY that he wanted.

Marvelous was fighting 1 fight a year since 1985. One fight a year. That looks like a fighter that is not so interested in fighting like he used to.

If the fight was in 1982 or '83 when both were at their very best and in their primes, and Sugar Ray wins, he had to be rated in the top 5 at least of all-time pound per pound. It would have been much more impressive as an achievement.

Now, why Barkley can't have the benefit of the doubt in this fight? Why not Thomas Hearns? What if Hearns changed strategy in fight #2 by boxing skills? He had great boxing skills. Marvelous comes that way like he did against Sugar Ray that night and the Hitman would have outboxed him. That would not be possible?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 14:33

elmersalsa wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 14:26

Syntax Error wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 16:36

Nigel Benn beats Hagler in 1987; seriously?

I know Hagler had lost his speed by then, but he would have still been too much for a reckless novice like Benn.

And you only mention Iran Barkley? How about Michael Nunn that night? Sumbu Kalambay? Mike McCallum?

Barkley would have beaten him on that night. Not in before or after that. Marvelous looked totally trashy against Sugar Ray.

Barkley would not have beaten Hagler in 1987.

I realize you love Duran, and hate Leonard, but be honest at least or you lose credibility.

I prefer Duran over Leonard too as a fan. I would MUCH rather watch the career of Duran than Leonard.

But Leonard has better, more noteworthy wins than Duran. This is an indisputable fact. If you're ranking Duran over Leonard because he has like 3 or 4 times as many fights. OK, that's your argument.

When you try to twist the argument into "His wins are bigger than Leonard's"

You just come off looking like a blind fanboy.

By any measure. From any objective person. It is not debatable AT ALL. Which win is bigger. You're a man on an island by yourself here, and the sad thing is. Even YOU know you're full of sh*t. You just desperately want what you're saying to be the truth.

It is the truth for me and my opinion. I don't care if I am by myself in this sentiment. I am my own man. I am objective. I called it like I see it. You are the one that thinks that Sugar Ray could beat even King Kong or Godzilla if he fights them.

That Leonard has more noteworthy wins than Duran? He is not the only one. You don't take into consideration that the MAJORITY of Sugar Ray's wins were at his best weight at Welterweight. He had to wait 5 years to beat Marvelous. Duran, a Lightweight, kicked his ass.

Leonard had the luxury that Duran and Benitez came up to 147. Nobody wanted to come up to 135 when Duran was King. That was like Wilfredo Gomez and Alexis Arguello going up to Lightweight. The ONLY TRUE WELTERWEIGHT Leonard beat was Thomas Hearns.

Duran fought Benitez and Hearns at 154lbs. Not at 147. If Duran would have lost to them at 147lbs, then there's no reason to debate who was the better fighter.

But, when BOTH were at their best, with their skills, Duran was better. Simply as that. That second fight was hogwash.

Duran win over Barkley TO ME was much more incredible and impressive than Sugar Ray win over Marvelous. That's my opinion. And I don't think that I am alone at that sentiment.

We get that Elmer. You're just wrong. Horribly wrong.

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 23:45 We get that Elmer. You're just wrong. Horribly wrong.

That's just my opinion. One opinion is not better than the other.

That Duran win over Barkley is a stuff made for legends, man!

Going toe to toe at 37 with a younger, stronger, taller, bigger and win the fight, it shouldn't happened. I haven't seen nothing like it in the history of boxing. And I ask to everybody, who has done that?

De la Hoya beating Vargas is more impressive.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 09:59

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Dec 2022, 23:45 We get that Elmer. You're just wrong. Horribly wrong.

That's just my opinion. One opinion is not better than the other.

That Duran win over Barkley is a stuff made for legends, man!

Going toe to toe at 37 with a younger, stronger, taller, bigger and win the fight, it shouldn't happened. I haven't seen nothing like it in the history of boxing. And I ask to everybody, who has done that?

It's funny that when I make my point using actually names you have to get offended, and say "You just think Leonard could beat King Kong or Godzilla"

No...No I don't, and I never said he was unbeatable.

I said his win over Hagler is better than Duran's win over Barkley, and it is.

I'll give it to you that Duran vs Barkley is a more fun fight to watch though.

And with that. I've said what I said on the matter. I know you hate Leonard, and will always belittle him as often as you can. He's the one subject you basically can't be honest about. I guess he pissed in your cereal when you were a kid or something.

elmer can never be honest about a guy if he has a strong opinion about him. If he loves him, there is always an excuse. Duran is somehow the bst of all time and Pedroza is somehow the most complete.
Meanwhile Ray Leonard was not a "real fighter" .

I like the part where Benn would have beaten Hagler in his 3rd pro fight.
Or Kalambay (who lost to a 34-year old Ayub Kalue) would have beaten Hagler. Or McCallum who could beat Kalambay. Good stuff.

And we can't count Leonard's win in the 2nd fight because it was "hogwash".
Nor can we can't count Benitez's win over Duran.

Maybe we could make a list. elmer can name all the times a guy was off for three years and then beat a Hall of Famer. How long could this list be?
And then maybe a list of guys 37 who beat someone as good or better than Iran Barkley.
Which list would be longer?

The "objective" list obviously.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 14:25 elmer can never be honest about a guy if he has a strong opinion about him. If he loves him, there is always an excuse. Duran is somehow the bst of all time and Pedroza is somehow the most complete.
Meanwhile Ray Leonard was not a "real fighter" .

I like the part where Benn would have beaten Hagler in his 3rd pro fight.
Or Kalambay (who lost to a 34-year old Ayub Kalue) would have beaten Hagler. Or McCallum who could beat Kalambay. Good stuff.

And we can't count Leonard's win in the 2nd fight because it was "hogwash".
Nor can we can't count Benitez's win over Duran.

Maybe we could make a list. elmer can name all the times a guy was off for three years and then beat a Hall of Famer. How long could this list be?
And then maybe a list of guys 37 who beat someone as good or better than Iran Barkley.
Which list would be longer?

Scorched him on that last point.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 14:27

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 14:25 elmer can never be honest about a guy if he has a strong opinion about him. If he loves him, there is always an excuse. Duran is somehow the bst of all time and Pedroza is somehow the most complete.
Meanwhile Ray Leonard was not a "real fighter" .

I like the part where Benn would have beaten Hagler in his 3rd pro fight.
Or Kalambay (who lost to a 34-year old Ayub Kalue) would have beaten Hagler. Or McCallum who could beat Kalambay. Good stuff.

And we can't count Leonard's win in the 2nd fight because it was "hogwash".
Nor can we can't count Benitez's win over Duran.

Maybe we could make a list. elmer can name all the times a guy was off for three years and then beat a Hall of Famer. How long could this list be?
And then maybe a list of guys 37 who beat someone as good or better than Iran Barkley.
Which list would be longer?

Scorched him on that last point.

Well and truly.

FAO elmersalsa, out of interest, why did you bring up Duran/Barkley in the first place?

What was the point in the context of this thread?

Just curious because I think a valid explanation will put this matter to bed and keithmoonhangover can have his thread back.

None of you could bring another fighter that has won like the win of Duran, who was a washed up legend, at age 37 beating a younger, stronger, bigger, and taller foe. It was to me, a stuff of legends.

Duran's win over Barkley to me, was very incredible. Much more incredible than Leonard's win over a sliding and shot Marvelous. I named about 5 or more fighters that would have beaten him on that night of April 6, 1987.

Marvelous wasn't the same and it showed. That win was totally blown out of proportion by the media. I mean, American media. But, truly, it wasn't that much for us to be super awed about it.

When Duran beat Barkley, I said in my mind, heart and soul that it was incredible. This guy got to be in the top 5 all-time pound per pound great fighter. And I am sure a lot of people think the same way.

None of you, I mean none of you, had brought me an example of a great win of a washed up fighter, at age 37, fighting in his 4th weight class, come up with a win of that magnitude. And the way he did it, man! With a knockdown in the 11th round and Barkley went down backwards. And the crowd roaring like crazy. It got to be one of the most unforgettable and incredible wins of all-time.

I am debating with 4 guys, that probably like Sugar Ray more than Duran. I get that. That ain't a surprise to me.

What is surprising is that no one wants to consider the Duran win over Barkley as incredible when Duran wasn't given a No Shot to win.

It doesn't bother me at all. I am glad that some people recognize that win the way I see it. To each one his own.

Duran to me, the greatest fighter ever since 1965

Syntax Error wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 16:28 FAO elmersalsa, out of interest, why did you bring up Duran/Barkley in the first place?

What was the point in the context of this thread?

Just curious because I think a valid explanation will put this matter to bed and keithmoonhangover can have his thread back.

Because it was brought up that the Sugar Ray win over Marvelous was a great win that in reality, it's blown out of proportion. Let's put it all in perspective. That he did had one fight in 5 years? Big deal. Why he didn't fight a top ten middleweight first?

That win to me is tainted by the following factors. That's why to me, it wasn't as incredible like Duran's win over Barkley.

First, Marvelous was only fighting once a year since 1985. Before that, Marvelous was making sometimes 3 to 5 title fights a year.

Second, Marvelous went through the motions to fight Sugar Ray. He wasn't going to let $13 to $15 possible million dollars this time when he was dissed in 1982 in front of Howard Cossell.

Third, all the stipulations that Leonard asked and Marvelous had to agree to get that money: gloves without thumbs, larger ring so that Leonard could run, 12 rounds instead of 15, and other stuff to give Leonard the advantage.

And last and fourth, Marvelous was ready to be taken. He was missing shots like an amateur. It was the worst performance that I have ever seen him do. Any other top 5 contender would have beaten him if he fought that way against Sugar Ray. He was slow, with no spirited action, with very questionable performance. Very uncharacteristic of him.

My argument was that Duran's win over Barkley was much more incredible and impressive. Duran, at age 37, washed up and fighting in his 4th weight class, beat a younger, stronger, bigger, taller and in his prime in Iran Barkley that was coming from a big win against the great Thomas Hearns.

That was my argument and I am sticking to it. It was to me, much more incredible and impressive.

I bet Duran to beat Barkley.

goose 5 wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 20:12 I bet Duran to beat Barkley.

I rooted for Leonard to beat Marvelous

You are so full of crap. You hated Leonard. You never would have said that Leonard wasn't a real fighter if you liked him.


I don't remember any build up to Duran-Barkley at all. When it was over, it was like oh a nice win for Duran. Wasn't until about 15 years later on this forum that I ever saw anyone make that big of a deal about it. Guess who that was.

When Leonard beat Hagler, it was shock to a lot of people It was an incredible accomplishment.
Nobody was saying Hagler was shot before the fight.
He had one fight in the previous 95 years, Hagler had 9. Which was the main reason so many people thought Hagler would destroy him. Then as the years went by, we started hearing the lame excuses, (ring size, gloves etc.) Have never heard anyone make a big deal about these kinds of things in any other fight.
Not like Hagler had a gun to head when he signed. Not like he and Leonard didn't fight under the same rules.

I eagerly await your words of wisdom. Just kidding.

I would go back in time and watch Elmer get his ass kicked by that girl in 8th grade home economics class.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑09 Dec 2022, 18:46 None of you could bring another fighter that has won like the win of Duran, who was a washed up legend, at age 37 beating a younger, stronger, bigger, and taller foe. It was to me, a stuff of legends.

40 year old Manny Pacquiao beating the Bigger, Younger, Stronger, Taller Keith Thurman.

34 or so year old Oleksandr Usyk beat the bigger, younger, stronger, Taller Anthony Joshua twice.


This is stuff that has happened within the last 5 years. I don't feel like racking my brain all night, but there's 2 examples right there bud, and I didn't even have to think that hard for those.

Now....

Your turn.

Name me ANY other fighter that has come out of a 3 year retirement to beat a Long Reigning Hall of Fame World Champion in his comeback bout.

So ladies and gentlemen, what we can conclude is that if anybody gives Sugar Ray Leonard any kind of praise for a noteworthy achievement, elmersalsa will downplay that achievement, then pluck an achievement of Roberto Duran's out of the ether and claim that was superior, regardless of whether it has any relevance to the thread or not.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑10 Dec 2022, 02:20 Name me ANY other fighter that has come out of a 3 year retirement to beat a Long Reigning Hall of Fame World Champion in his comeback bout.

I think I have one..... Is Peter McNeeley in the Hall of Fame?