BoxRec

GreenLightning wrote: ↑04 Dec 2022, 18:56

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2022, 04:39 Well let me simplify it for you. I don't care who does or don't do it.

If you're so against horrible injuries being induced in Boxing, you should probably be against the idea of Boxing entirely. The whole idea of the sport is to injure your opponent frankly. Cut him, Knock him out, Break his ribs, Break his nose. These are all things you strive for in this sport. It's not pure, and honorable by it's very nature. So why pretend to be all high and mighty about it? It's Barbaric, and it appeals to the Barbarian in us to watch it and enjoy it.

So embrace it. Enjoy the violence. Enjoy the energy. Enjoy the competition. Enjoy the Skill.

Don't Police It. It's not really meant to be Policed too much. It's Outlaw sh*t. A cutthroat sport filled with shady people behind the scenes, and in many cases in the ring.

This is what Boxing is. This is my stance on it. You don't have to agree with it, but it doesn't hurt my feelings one bit if you don't.

It's a martial art that is supposed to be beyond a scrap in the street, it is fought by brave boxers, martial artists, who are coming In under the understanding they are fighting a fellow martial artist, within the rules, if the guy is cheating with chemicals he is not supposed to have in his system, that enhance his ability to inflict bodily harm on me that I'm not aware of, that is utter cowardice , if you're going to use it, go do it where you both agree to take them

It's a difficult one. In principle I agree with you, but unfortunately I found the higher I progressed in sport, the more I would start to hear things.
I kind of just accept that at the elite level with so much money riding on small margins of victory morality takes a back seat to financial opportunity.

I am sure there are fighters still trying to do things the right way, but I at the top end, I suspect the vast majority are willing to push the envelope to get any edge they can (legal and illegal).

Maybe some of the positive tests in boxing are through idiocy on the part of the culprits, but I can't help but feel it's boxing's dirty not so little, not so secret. A lot of the positive results seem to be politically motivated.

When I was young, I was horrified when Hulk Hogan admitted he wasn't clean. Now? I suspect I'd have very few sports stars left to cheer for.

When Big Baby Miller popped dirty, I just shrugged. He was a blantantly enhanced boxer for much of what I'd seen of his career, but no one cared until it became advantageous to pop him. Then suddenly he was persona non grata and public enemy number 1...yeah, sure, I guess...

Maybe I'm just cynical, and the sport is tarnished, and with it so too is the perceived innocence that genuinely clean athletes should be entitled to as default.

Ultimately, I see it as a dirty sport. But that isn't exclusive to boxing unfortunately.

GreenLightning wrote: ↑04 Dec 2022, 18:56

gilgamesh wrote: ↑03 Dec 2022, 04:39 Well let me simplify it for you. I don't care who does or don't do it.

If you're so against horrible injuries being induced in Boxing, you should probably be against the idea of Boxing entirely. The whole idea of the sport is to injure your opponent frankly. Cut him, Knock him out, Break his ribs, Break his nose. These are all things you strive for in this sport. It's not pure, and honorable by it's very nature. So why pretend to be all high and mighty about it? It's Barbaric, and it appeals to the Barbarian in us to watch it and enjoy it.

So embrace it. Enjoy the violence. Enjoy the energy. Enjoy the competition. Enjoy the Skill.

Don't Police It. It's not really meant to be Policed too much. It's Outlaw sh*t. A cutthroat sport filled with shady people behind the scenes, and in many cases in the ring.

This is what Boxing is. This is my stance on it. You don't have to agree with it, but it doesn't hurt my feelings one bit if you don't.

It's a martial art that is supposed to be beyond a scrap in the street, it is fought by brave boxers, martial artists, who are coming In under the understanding they are fighting a fellow martial artist, within the rules, if the guy is cheating with chemicals he is not supposed to have in his system, that enhance his ability to inflict bodily harm on me that I'm not aware of, that is utter cowardice , if you're going to use it, go do it where you both agree to take them

People are always gonna try to have an extra edge on you. Don't make a difference if you're Boxing or playing a game of Monopoly.

And while I actually admire your desire for a 100% pure sport in Boxing. Hell I'd like that myself, but I've watched this sport now for 20 plus years and I know that wanting it to be 100% on the level is just a pipedream. Never has happened, never will happen.

So I'm not gonna stop liking a fighter I like just for doing what many other fighters do.

If it’s completely abhorrent for a boxer to take PEDs due to the unfair advantage that can be gained and potential risk to the opponent should (for example) the UK government put a blanket ban and make all adult boxing fights from amateur through white collar through unlicensed right from the bottom to the top of the pro game unless both fighters have a steroid test.

Because the lower you go the more steroids are being abused .

Or is the life of a champion worth more than the life of a strait laced accountant trying his hand at white collar.

The sport is riddled with it - split between those that don’t take it, those that do and those that get caught.

For the people who say, "Everyone's at it, so therefore it's a level playing field" and all PEDs should be legalized or something to that effect. I have one question.....

Boxer A has backing and can afford all the PEDs in the world. Boxer B doesn't have enough money to pay for the PEDs. Boxer A batters Boxer B to a bloody pulp. Is that fair?

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 09:31 For the people who say, "Everyone's at it, so therefore it's a level playing field" and all PEDs should be legalized or something to that effect. I have one question.....

Boxer A has backing and can afford all the PEDs in the world. Boxer B doesn't have enough money to pay for the PEDs. Boxer A batters Boxer B to a bloody pulp. Is that fair?

Steroids are cheap. Very cheap. The average working man can afford them.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 09:39 Steroids are cheap. Very cheap. The average working man can afford them.

Doesn’t the real expense lie in hiring the docs / nutritionists who advise on how and when to take it to avoid detection ?

CaptainSpacerod wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 09:53

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 09:39 Steroids are cheap. Very cheap. The average working man can afford them.

Doesn’t the real expense lie in hiring the docs / nutritionists who advise on how and when to take it to avoid detection ?

Maybe in a world title fight with the Vada testing not in the kind of fights being spoken about here mate.

Blood work is cheap. Gear is cheap. EPO is the best PED for boxing and it can be expensive for top grade stuff but is also undetectable with the testing used in boxing.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:06 Maybe in a world title fight with the Vada testing not in the kind of fights being spoken about here mate.

Blood work is cheap. Gear is cheap. EPO is the best PED for boxing and it can be expensive for top grade stuff but is also undetectable with the testing used in boxing.

Dillashaw (UFC) failed a USADA test for EPO. They then re-tested an old test and found evidence of it there too but they didn't catch it at the time. How exactly do they test for EPO and how does it differ from other drugs?

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:11

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:06 Maybe in a world title fight with the Vada testing not in the kind of fights being spoken about here mate.

Blood work is cheap. Gear is cheap. EPO is the best PED for boxing and it can be expensive for top grade stuff but is also undetectable with the testing used in boxing.

Dillashaw (UFC) failed a USADA test for EPO. They then re-tested an old test and found evidence of it there too but they didn't catch it at the time. How exactly do they test for EPO and how does it differ from other drugs?

Boxing isn’t tested the same as the UFC and certainly not at the levels being talked about here such as “well paid fighter A vs low paid fighter B”

EPO cannot be detected by common drug tests, such as those used in most boxing matches. Not that most boxing matches are even tested anyway. It’s only detected by very complex comparisons to previous tests to show how much red blood cells are present.

Dillashaw had been using it for years and had it down to a fine art, then he went down a division and messed up his protocol. However it’s wrong to compare boxing with UFC as the testing pool is much much more stringent in the UFC (a league basically) and boxing (an unregulated racket, ran mostly by crooks and gangsters).

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:23

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:11

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:06 Maybe in a world title fight with the Vada testing not in the kind of fights being spoken about here mate.

Blood work is cheap. Gear is cheap. EPO is the best PED for boxing and it can be expensive for top grade stuff but is also undetectable with the testing used in boxing.

Dillashaw (UFC) failed a USADA test for EPO. They then re-tested an old test and found evidence of it there too but they didn't catch it at the time. How exactly do they test for EPO and how does it differ from other drugs?

Boxing isn’t tested the same as the UFC and certainly not at the levels being talked about here such as “well paid fighter A vs low paid fighter B”

EPO cannot be detected by common drug tests, such as those used in most boxing matches. Not that most boxing matches are even tested anyway. It’s only detected by very complex comparisons to previous tests to show how much red blood cells are present.

Dillashaw had been using it for years and had it down to a fine art, then he went down a division and messed up his protocol. However it’s wrong to compare boxing with UFC as the testing pool is much much more stringent in the UFC (a league basically) and boxing (an unregulated racket, ran mostly by crooks and gangsters).

Interesting. I guess it can very much be more widely used than I thought then. Cheers

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:36

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:23

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:11

Dillashaw (UFC) failed a USADA test for EPO. They then re-tested an old test and found evidence of it there too but they didn't catch it at the time. How exactly do they test for EPO and how does it differ from other drugs?

Boxing isn’t tested the same as the UFC and certainly not at the levels being talked about here such as “well paid fighter A vs low paid fighter B”

EPO cannot be detected by common drug tests, such as those used in most boxing matches. Not that most boxing matches are even tested anyway. It’s only detected by very complex comparisons to previous tests to show how much red blood cells are present.

Dillashaw had been using it for years and had it down to a fine art, then he went down a division and messed up his protocol. However it’s wrong to compare boxing with UFC as the testing pool is much much more stringent in the UFC (a league basically) and boxing (an unregulated racket, ran mostly by crooks and gangsters).

Interesting. I guess it can very much be more widely used than I thought then. Cheers

It’s like a lot of these compounds, expensive to buy brand names but there are loads available from underground labs at a fraction of the price.

Think Vigra - Kamagra. When Vigra was patented under Pfizer, it was £25 a tablet. Indian Kamagra, using the same active ingredient, Sildenafil, was £10 for ten tablets and did the exact same thing.

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:36

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:23

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:11

Dillashaw (UFC) failed a USADA test for EPO. They then re-tested an old test and found evidence of it there too but they didn't catch it at the time. How exactly do they test for EPO and how does it differ from other drugs?

Boxing isn’t tested the same as the UFC and certainly not at the levels being talked about here such as “well paid fighter A vs low paid fighter B”

EPO cannot be detected by common drug tests, such as those used in most boxing matches. Not that most boxing matches are even tested anyway. It’s only detected by very complex comparisons to previous tests to show how much red blood cells are present.

Dillashaw had been using it for years and had it down to a fine art, then he went down a division and messed up his protocol. However it’s wrong to compare boxing with UFC as the testing pool is much much more stringent in the UFC (a league basically) and boxing (an unregulated racket, ran mostly by crooks and gangsters).

Interesting. I guess it can very much be more widely used than I thought then. Cheers

https://sports.yahoo.com/oscar-valdezs- ... 51713.html

Have a read at this mate.

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 12:14

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:36

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:23

Boxing isn’t tested the same as the UFC and certainly not at the levels being talked about here such as “well paid fighter A vs low paid fighter B”

EPO cannot be detected by common drug tests, such as those used in most boxing matches. Not that most boxing matches are even tested anyway. It’s only detected by very complex comparisons to previous tests to show how much red blood cells are present.

Dillashaw had been using it for years and had it down to a fine art, then he went down a division and messed up his protocol. However it’s wrong to compare boxing with UFC as the testing pool is much much more stringent in the UFC (a league basically) and boxing (an unregulated racket, ran mostly by crooks and gangsters).

Interesting. I guess it can very much be more widely used than I thought then. Cheers

https://sports.yahoo.com/oscar-valdezs- ... 51713.html

Have a read at this mate.

Looks interesting, will give it a read!

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 12:17

Wee Tommy wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 12:14

joshj909 wrote: ↑06 Dec 2022, 10:36

Interesting. I guess it can very much be more widely used than I thought then. Cheers

https://sports.yahoo.com/oscar-valdezs- ... 51713.html

Have a read at this mate.

Looks interesting, will give it a read!

Here’s a few paragraphs for anyone who thinks boxing testing is remotely effective.


The gold standard of anti-doping programs?

The problem with the current boxing drug testing is this: Between fights, a boxer could begin using an anabolic steroid or other banned substances. Then, by knowing the time it takes for a substance to fully leave the body, can cycle off. Then, he or she signs to be tested by VADA and will have had the benefit of the use of the PEDs while not testing positive for them.

UFC fighters don’t have that. Former light heavyweight champion Jon Jones hasn’t fought since a win over Dominick Reyes on Feb. 8, 2020. But according to the athlete test history at the UFC’s anti-doping page, Jones was tested once in the second quarter of 2020, seven times in the third quarter of last year and eight times in the fourth quarter.

So far in 2021, Jones has been tested 10 times.

That means Jones has been tested at least 26 times since he last fought and that is a far better deterrent than only testing boxers six or eight weeks before they have a fight.

“To say that VADA has the gold standard program because of their ‘gimmick’ to throw stimulants into prohibited at-all-times status is laughable,” Novitzky said. “Gold standard is 365/24/7 testing, [a] robust education program, [a] world-class science department to analyze results, [a] biological passport and maybe, most importantly, an investigative department.

“Ask Victor Conte about the last one, what the investigative factor did to him back in the day! USADA has a full investigative department that goes out and conducts interviews, liaisons with law enforcement, recommends target testing based on intel, [and] has an anonymous tip line.”

VADA does not have that.

'Some testing is better than none'

Mike Mazzulli, the president of the Association of Boxing Commissions and the director of the Mohegan Tribe’s athletic regulation, said drug-testing is an extraordinary expense that most boxing promoters can’t afford.

He said he routinely tests fighters out-of-competition on behalf of the Mohegan Tribe and said during the COVID pandemic, he's had three positive tests out of nearly 40 shows he’s done.

“I would love to be able to do what the UFC is doing in regard to the testing program,” Mazzulli said. “But economically speaking, it’s very expensive and boxing is different than the UFC with all the different promoters. I think what the UFC is doing with its program and the 24/7/365 is the benchmark, but having said that, I think some testing is better than none.”

Top Rank president Todd duBoef said the nature of boxing promotion makes it difficult to have the type of testing the UFC employs. DuBoef is Valdez’s promoter.

He said there are many obstacles in the way of implementing such a plan. Some boxers, such as Donaire, enroll in VADA 24/7/365 themselves at their own expense. But for those who don’t have the means to pay for such testing or who don’t want to, duBoef said he’s not sure what the answer is.

“It’s an interesting topic that has to be addressed,” duBoef said. “But you have to remember, there is a massive global pool of fighters in boxing and there is no barrier of entry in this sport. There are events done every day all over the world. Is there a way to get all of that into one centralized, controlling system? I don’t know. It’s tough.”

VADA and USADA hire the same collectors to get the samples from the fighters, and they send them to the same laboratories for analysis. They work off the same prohibited list.

USADA did a few Floyd Mayweather fights the way that VADA does it, generally six to nine weeks before a bout. But it no longer does that and only operates a program if a deal is done for 24/7/365 testing.

Novitzky used an example from track and field during his days as an investigator to explain why the 24/7/365 model is best. Under that system, the athletes never know when they might be tested but then know they assume a huge risk if they take PEDs, particularly since the testing has gotten so much better at detecting even minute levels of banned substances.

“I’m going to go back to when I was doing these investigations in track and field almost 20 years ago,” Novitzky said. “I think track and field has a lot of similarities to boxing in that they’re training for one event. You have a camp and it’s all focused on getting prepared for this one event.

“Many of those athletes told me they felt their performances peaked weeks after discontinuing their use of the drugs. There’s some research out there to support this. … So the thought that you have to be on something and it has to be in your system to be getting the benefit is not the case. If you know with any reasonable certainty when drug testing is starting, it’s pretty simple these days to figure the clearance times of drugs.”

Answering the original question and avoiding all the fugazi. In a word…,
NO

Interesting stuff Tom cheers

Given the frequency of testing would you say the UFC fighters aren’t on it, or just doing some kind of micro dosing clever jiggerypokery? I mean looking at those physiques…but yet it’s only out of competition Conor has suddenly and blatantly blown up so much? Was he not at it before, or has he just been able to go balls to the wall now he’s OOC where he had to be careful before?

From the top of my head for a while USADA was permitting UFC fighters upto 6 times the normal testosterone level, but then they closed the loophole and brought it back to 4 times. And overnight a lot of fighters physically melted, like Belfort and Overeem. But I’d say these days a lot of UFC fighters are on gear but are being very smart about it. PEDs are quite rampant in martial arts generally. I read it very common for entry level BJJ fighters, white and blue belts to look jacked. Things like SARMS are legally available and people are experimenting on themselves left, right and centre.

I always thought Ken Shamrock was a clean fighter

wrighty wrote: ↑13 Dec 2022, 06:57 I always thought Ken Shamrock was a clean fighter

I think he ate the whole pharmacy. I think he’s a bit of an example of a UFC fighter piling on to much PED bulk onto a small frame. His stamina not to mention his chin was a bit duff

polecateddy wrote: ↑07 Dec 2022, 03:42 From the top of my head for a while USADA was permitting UFC fighters upto 6 times the normal testosterone level, but then they closed the loophole and brought it back to 4 times. And overnight a lot of fighters physically melted, like Belfort and Overeem. But I’d say these days a lot of UFC fighters are on gear but are being very smart about it. PEDs are quite rampant in martial arts generally. I read it very common for entry level BJJ fighters, white and blue belts to look jacked. Things like SARMS are legally available and people are experimenting on themselves left, right and centre.

Belfort who literally blinded Michael Bisping in one eye while loaded on the juice, Bisping now has a glass eye

But ah well mate everyone's on it why do you hate Belfort so much Michael??

GreenLightning wrote: ↑13 Dec 2022, 08:34

polecateddy wrote: ↑07 Dec 2022, 03:42 From the top of my head for a while USADA was permitting UFC fighters upto 6 times the normal testosterone level, but then they closed the loophole and brought it back to 4 times. And overnight a lot of fighters physically melted, like Belfort and Overeem. But I’d say these days a lot of UFC fighters are on gear but are being very smart about it. PEDs are quite rampant in martial arts generally. I read it very common for entry level BJJ fighters, white and blue belts to look jacked. Things like SARMS are legally available and people are experimenting on themselves left, right and centre.

Belfort who literally blinded Michael Bisping in one eye while loaded on the juice, Bisping now has a glass eye

But ah well mate everyone's on it why do you hate Belfort so much Michael??

Note this wouldn't have been classed as a serious injury caused by a PED user either if Belfort has gotten away with it, so how many permanent injuries have REALLY been caused by guys being on juice I wonder

It's true, the complete fornicating state of Belfort when they took his testosterone away, I'd be bitter too if he knocked my eye out

GreenLightning wrote: ↑13 Dec 2022, 08:49

It's true, the complete fornicating state of Belfort when they took his testosterone away, I'd be bitter too if he knocked my eye out

He went from being a physical beast and one of the most terrifying MMA fighters ever to an old man over night. If anyone needs evidence of what can happen when testosterone is abused, Vitor is the prime example. And, if anyone wants an example of what can happen when combat sportsmen are allowed to abuse drugs, Bisping's eye is a prime example.

Bisping is an interesting success story. I followed MMA more back at the beginning - Bisping came through Cage Rage and then clearly was the best athlete in what was probably a very weak Ultimate Fighter. He did a lot with decent stamina and solid kick boxing. Pretty brutal the toll it took on him. As well as the eye didn’t he just find out the other day he has a broken bone in his back he didn’t even about. Also hip or was it knee replacement. It’s a lot of damage and he’s not even that old.

and what is all this "boxing is different than the UFC" the sport is MMA, UFC is a corrupt money making promotion , not the bloody sport itself

"UFC doesn't have different promotors like boxing" uh UFC is the promotor genius

It's Matchroom, it's TopRank, it's not MMA itself