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Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 13 Nov 2023, 19:14
by rob h
I've watched it numerous times over the years and always come to the same conclusion that Liston seemed hell bent on losing that count. I've read Liston say that he stayed down as Ali was jumping and dancing around him and he feared he would be kicked in the face. Which to me makes it even more suspicious. Liston was a bad, bad guy who wouldn't have been a stranger to dangerous street situations. The last thing I imagine a guy like Liston would do is roll around theatrically before checking it was safe to get up once Ali was back in a neutral corner. The natural reaction would be to jump up, not look around, see the ref isn't paying attention to you, so keep on rolling until it's noticed.

All very odd and I believe the theory that Ali was on to it, hence his irate reaction to the knockdown.

Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 03:44
by Sweet Dick Willie
So why was it a fix? Mob shit?

Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 05:23
by Controversial
JackSprocket wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 03:44 So why was it a fix? Mob shit?
Several theories, this covers it

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Muham ... d_meeting)

Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 14 Nov 2023, 05:36
by Sweet Dick Willie
Controversial wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 05:23
JackSprocket wrote: 14 Nov 2023, 03:44 So why was it a fix? Mob shit?
Several theories, this covers it

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Muham ... d_meeting)
Thanks! Interesting stuff.

Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 15 Nov 2023, 12:16
by BroughtonRulesRefuge
- Boys, been at this boxing thing a long time now from inception of internet forums, so forgive me in advance over my frustration at not understanding how growed men cannot understand the video evidence.

One of my hobbies was knocking around my canvas heavy bag under my big backyard oak daily where I eventually moved to bare fists for more snap, snap in punching being what Ali possessed in abundance that gave him so much TKO Cut stoppages. My HS buddy was a credentialed ama, so we talked boxing and agreed in watching Ali that he possessed a unique snapping twist that did the damage.

Liston II backdrop was NOI civil war of sorts, Malcolm assassinated, the WBA stripped Ali quiet as a church mouse with the rematch having to move to Podunk, Maine for security where black Muslim groups would better stand out for security purpose.

Bout started like the first with Liston chasing swinging long left hooks for the fences with Ali doing his scalded cat impersonation again. At the point of controversy, Sonny swung hisself off balance and was stooped parallel to the ring floor exposed as Ali jumped back off balance to fire a quick counter right with some snap that caught Sonny on the left temple, a sneaky quicksilver but legit shot that lucked into landing on a critical spot. Seriously hurt or not, Liston was going down no matter.

I practiced the shot incessantly, pushing the bag way out to jump back to deliver the same shot on the bag, and it's next to zero force.

I believe it was Cosell who organized a 4 person panel that included Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano who viewed several replays. Dempsey was critical saying it wasn't a KO blow, and I concur. Rocky buddies with Ali now more supportive, so as a kid seeing two of my heroes going over what I was seeing was pure ecstasy. However, I wasn't astute enough then to understand Howie was asking leading questions. Walcott's role was discussed maybe, and maybe Nat too, but not clearly and those two are responsible for making a hash out of that fight, shyte officiating being the absolute bane of boxing historically.

Walcott near 50 yrs old was having to muscle a bigger prime age fighter to the corner, and I understand body language. Ali was trying to kick Sonny in the noggin.

Clear DQ for Ali, but worse, boxing managed to double up with Nat calling over Walcott before he could get back to Liston where the time elapsed was well already beyond 10 sec, so the Maine officials could've just called a No Contest, pick one or the other but all the same, Ali already been stripped of one belt deserved to be stripped for the other and serve a suspension. He was poisonous enough in the states with his NOI roots that he fled overseas for a while for defenses and $$$, but then Judge Hofheinz after having built the Astrodome made Ali a couple of defense offers vs local, the gut shot Cleveland Williams with half his intestines missing, and then WBA champ Ernie Terrell. NOI would've been dead meat had they tried something in Texas.

So then Ali ends up publicly ducking Wilt on Cosell's sport segment designed for their public signing for his 3rd Astrodome fight to opt for the 35 yr old Zorra Folley in MSG who put him through his paces before the Vietnam Fiasco and the rest of his too often controversial career, easily the most controversial fighter in history I'd say. It was his magical immature kid personality that bailed him out with the public after all the Vietnam War protesters adopted him as that war was ending.

I would say, The End, but there are no shortage of Ali fans ignoring the bad and the ugly of his epic time in boxing :wave:

Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 09:21
by Controversial
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: 15 Nov 2023, 12:16 - Boys, been at this boxing thing a long time now from inception of internet forums, so forgive me in advance over my frustration at not understanding how growed men cannot understand the video evidence.

One of my hobbies was knocking around my canvas heavy bag under my big backyard oak daily where I eventually moved to bare fists for more snap, snap in punching being what Ali possessed in abundance that gave him so much TKO Cut stoppages. My HS buddy was a credentialed ama, so we talked boxing and agreed in watching Ali that he possessed a unique snapping twist that did the damage.

Liston II backdrop was NOI civil war of sorts, Malcolm assassinated, the WBA stripped Ali quiet as a church mouse with the rematch having to move to Podunk, Maine for security where black Muslim groups would better stand out for security purpose.

Bout started like the first with Liston chasing swinging long left hooks for the fences with Ali doing his scalded cat impersonation again. At the point of controversy, Sonny swung hisself off balance and was stooped parallel to the ring floor exposed as Ali jumped back off balance to fire a quick counter right with some snap that caught Sonny on the left temple, a sneaky quicksilver but legit shot that lucked into landing on a critical spot. Seriously hurt or not, Liston was going down no matter.

I practiced the shot incessantly, pushing the bag way out to jump back to deliver the same shot on the bag, and it's next to zero force.

I believe it was Cosell who organized a 4 person panel that included Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano who viewed several replays. Dempsey was critical saying it wasn't a KO blow, and I concur. Rocky buddies with Ali now more supportive, so as a kid seeing two of my heroes going over what I was seeing was pure ecstasy. However, I wasn't astute enough then to understand Howie was asking leading questions. Walcott's role was discussed maybe, and maybe Nat too, but not clearly and those two are responsible for making a hash out of that fight, shyte officiating being the absolute bane of boxing historically.

Walcott near 50 yrs old was having to muscle a bigger prime age fighter to the corner, and I understand body language. Ali was trying to kick Sonny in the noggin.

Clear DQ for Ali, but worse, boxing managed to double up with Nat calling over Walcott before he could get back to Liston where the time elapsed was well already beyond 10 sec, so the Maine officials could've just called a No Contest, pick one or the other but all the same, Ali already been stripped of one belt deserved to be stripped for the other and serve a suspension. He was poisonous enough in the states with his NOI roots that he fled overseas for a while for defenses and $$$, but then Judge Hofheinz after having built the Astrodome made Ali a couple of defense offers vs local, the gut shot Cleveland Williams with half his intestines missing, and then WBA champ Ernie Terrell. NOI would've been dead meat had they tried something in Texas.

So then Ali ends up publicly ducking Wilt on Cosell's sport segment designed for their public signing for his 3rd Astrodome fight to opt for the 35 yr old Zorra Folley in MSG who put him through his paces before the Vietnam Fiasco and the rest of his too often controversial career, easily the most controversial fighter in history I'd say. It was his magical immature kid personality that bailed him out with the public after all the Vietnam War protesters adopted him as that war was ending.

I would say, The End, but there are no shortage of Ali fans ignoring the bad and the ugly of his epic time in boxing :wave:
So if you think Liston threw the fight, why?

Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 16 Nov 2023, 12:28
by Ezzard
One theory I heard was...

Liston trained like a trojan for the rematch. He promised his pal Cleveland Williams he would avenge the defeat.

The fight got postponed due to an injury.

Liston just couldn't muster the enthusiasm and passion again. He went in to the fight knowing he wasn't in his best shape. Came out swinging and when he saw a chance to get out he did.

I have no clue. My best guess is Ali didn't believe it was a real KD which is why he was so angry. Liston (whether he dived or not) saw an opportunity to get out and took it.

Do not believe Ali was in on anything.

Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 17 Nov 2023, 11:55
by BroughtonRulesRefuge
Controversial wrote: 16 Nov 2023, 09:21

So if you think Liston threw the fight, why?


- Thought I was quite clear that Ali was the prime culprit in creating the farce, clearly crazy in the moment.

Also quite clear Sonny that got popped in the temple with a nothing quick counter right that had just enough snap at the end to continue his off balance journey to the canvas, more embarrassed than hurt. Walcott did the best he could under the circumstances that were so out of whack that Nat ends up short circuited to call Walcott over.

Ali had already been stripped of WBA by rematching Sonny, and deserved WBC strippage and 6 month suspension.

Really crazy folk have that ability alter a normal person's reality which is why they are feared so because normal logic behaviors fly the coup and emergency decisions are often needed, ie my part of this godforsaken part of the country where they free range causing all kinds of dangerous havoc.

Ali had a previous meltdown in the first fight where he went fullstop Looneytunes and couldn't pass the physical. Angie had enough gravitas where he managed to talk the commish into giving him a room to remove Clay from Sonny to calm him down that saved that fight from cancellation. Already it had been retrieved from circling the drain after NOI membership was revealed to the promoter who of course had to take extra security steps that paled in the rematch.

Liston did quit that first fight apparently injured after all the big $$$ on a 1st round KO by the mob was lost, a sure bet because Clay was so poorly thought of after Jones and Sir 'enery fights. When the mob covered that bet with a new round, of course Sonny has to respect it if he wants to live. Not so this dead horse of recorded history that the usual suspects continue to beat in a morbid obsession.

So that sets up separate WBA/WBC title fights that I'd pick the popular Ellis and Quarry to win who probably end up fighting each other before the winner fights a more mature, settled Ali.

That's the what if you should be talking about :TU:

Re: Was Ali-Liston 2 fixed and was Ali in on it ?

Posted: 14 Apr 2025, 14:52
by Caractacus