Clarification of the Heavyweight scene now

[tonyevs]

Firstly Fury is a student of the game , and credit where its due his dad knows a bit about it too , now even though we can all say Klitchko was past it , Klitchko had measles , whatever , the fact does remain he bEAT kLITCHKO WHEN OTHERS WERE TO SCARED TO TRY or could'nt .

I can't agree sorry. Fury is a huge guy who uses his size to great affect. Credit goes to him for that, but he hasn't demonstrated he is a student of the game at all, and whilst his father knows a bit - he certainly isn't as knowledgeable as Peter Fury. Of course Tyson has had to alter his style with the blubber he has put on, but the fundamentals are exactly the same.

Others too scared to fight Klitschko?
60+ had done so professionally, 3 of those had actually KO'd Wlad too.
And after 60+ fights and nearly 40yrs old Wlad was really at the end of a very long career.

... remember AJ did'nt have a crack until AFTER fury shown the way , Vlad was on the slide it became obvious AFTER Tyson shown the way .

Really??

Fury was the only person to beat Wlad who didn`t KO him. Neither Joshua or Wlad fought the same negative fight as Fury and Wlad did in their fight.
It was identified after the Bryant Jennings fight prior to the Fury fight that Wlad was on the slide. Jennings took it to Wlad and never once looked in trouble. Wlad commented afterwards that he should have done better and majority of fight reviews commented Wlad looked past it.

Fury will have a big size advantage over Usyk and will not be slightest bit bothered in spoiling, fouling or stinking the place out to get a win, so as you say, you can`t rule him out winning somehow.

My own prediction is that Fury will get himself disqualified once it becomes clear he is a step or two behind Usyk. There is no way Fury risks being KO`d by Usyk, nor widely outpointed ... expect him to imitate his namesake and look for a disqualification loss. That will then enable him and his moron fan-bois to scream some sort of conspiracy or unfairness.
Jennings got stopped by Ortiz in his very next fight.

[KiwiRider]

Jennings got stopped by Ortiz in his very next fight.

To be fair to Jennings, that was a career best performance from Ortiz.
Ortiz either got off the juice, or got old overnight because he never looked as good as he did that night.

[si7dog7]

As it stands
Whose stock has risen and whose has diminished?

Usyk - same
Fury - negative x 2 (wilder and wallin)
AJ - slight positive (Wallin)
Parker - positive
DDD - slight positive
Whyte - stasis for a few years

Zhang. Waiting in vain til he’s too old (even more than 40)

N’Gannou. Awaiting next pay check,
.
This division is still in crisis.

Usyk v Fury will there be yet another delay? I’d punt on “Yes”

[SeanBrennan]

Kabayel - hoping he is getting a top 5 rating.

[coneye]

My own prediction is that Fury will get himself disqualified once it becomes clear he is a step or two behind Usyk. There is no way Fury risks being KO`d by Usyk, nor widely outpointed ... expect him to imitate his namesake and look for a disqualification loss. That will then enable him and his moron fan-bois to scream some sort of conspiracy or unfairness.
Jennings got stopped by Ortiz in his very next fight.


Actually my prediction a few weeks ago and i'm gonna stand by it , the fight will not go ahead , Fury will pull out , course i'm often wrong and i hope i'm wrong this time

[SeanBrennan]

My own prediction is that Fury will get himself disqualified once it becomes clear he is a step or two behind Usyk. There is no way Fury risks being KO`d by Usyk, nor widely outpointed ... expect him to imitate his namesake and look for a disqualification loss. That will then enable him and his moron fan-bois to scream some sort of conspiracy or unfairness.
Jennings got stopped by Ortiz in his very next fight.


Actually my prediction a few weeks ago and i'm gonna stand by it , the fight will not go ahead , Fury will pull out , course i'm often wrong and i hope i'm wrong this time

I think the same and also hope we're both wrong mate

[The Gratest]

Bad news for Joshua...Teddy Atlas is picking Joshua to beat Hrgovic

https://boxing-social.com/news/teddy-at ... rediction/

[SeanBrennan]

Bad news for Joshua...Teddy Atlas is picking Joshua to beat Hrgovic

https://boxing-social.com/news/teddy-at ... rediction/

hahahah the dreaded vote of Ted!

[coneye]

Bad news for Joshua...Teddy Atlas is picking Joshua to beat Hrgovic

https://boxing-social.com/news/teddy-at ... rediction/

Guess Davidson better start learning and practicing the fireman speech

[Finkel]

Firstly Fury is a student of the game , and credit where its due his dad knows a bit about it too , now even though we can all say Klitchko was past it , Klitchko had measles , whatever , the fact does remain he bEAT kLITCHKO WHEN OTHERS WERE TO SCARED TO TRY or could'nt .

Same goes for Wilder has well , now we all know styles make fights , and Fury is waaay to big to fight Wilder the same way has Parker , Wilder a few years ago while he i said then was poor with a bad resume , he was quicker , looser and not has gunshy a few years ago and much more likely to catch you , he also threw left hands in them days ,

I can't agree sorry. Fury is a huge guy who uses his size to great affect. Credit goes to him for that, but he hasn't demonstrated he is a student of the game at all, and whilst his father knows a bit - he certainly isn't as knowledgeable as Peter Fury. Of course Tyson has had to alter his style with the blubber he has put on, but the fundamentals are exactly the same.

Others too scared to fight Klitschko?
60+ had done so professionally, 3 of those had actually KO'd Wlad too.
And after 60+ fights and nearly 40yrs old Wlad was really at the end of a very long career.

Ironically, as it kind of defeats the purpose of his very next paragraph, the person who was too scared to fight the aging Klitschko was Wilder.

Stiverne wanted the undisputed fight with Klitschko. WBC vetoed it. It was Shelley Finkel wouldn't let Wilder near Klitschko though. He was too green apparently...

Though I will come to Fury's defence a little. He lost too much weight too fast when he fought Wallin. Off the back of that poor performance, Davis was out and Sugar was in. The Fury from Wilder 2 was a different boxer stylistically and physically to the one who fought Wallin. Hats off to Sugar Hill Steward

[wrighty]

As it stands
Whose stock has risen and whose has diminished?

Usyk - same
Fury - negative x 2 (wilder and wallin)
AJ - slight positive (Wallin)
Parker - positive
DDD - slight positive
Whyte - stasis for a few years

Zhang. Waiting in vain til he’s too old (even more than 40)

N’Gannou. Awaiting next pay check,
.
This division is still in crisis.

Usyk v Fury will there be yet another delay? I’d punt on “Yes”

kabayel looked very good the other night I thought. He's exciting although it's hard to see where he is ranked

[mooman]

Though I will come to Fury's defence a little. He lost too much weight too fast when he fought Wallin. Off the back of that poor performance, Davis was out and Sugar was in. The Fury from Wilder 2 was a different boxer stylistically and physically to the one who fought Wallin. Hats off to Sugar Hill Steward

Fury made Wallin look decent not because he wasn't as fat as we had come to expect him, but because Fury was not able to look technically great against Wallin .. Wallin is better skilled than the Tom Schwarz, Seferi, Pianetas and Wilder who'd all exaggerated Fury's worth.

Sugar Hill would have only had about 6-8 weeks with Fury before he fought Wilder the 2nd time, nowhere near enough time to give a 31 year old boxer additional skills and change of style. Sugar Hill merely gave him a better game plan, something Boxercise was incapable of doing.

*Off topic. Boxercise is similar to Enzo Calzaghe. Obviously very good at what he does, motivating a boxer to use whatever skills they already have, but technically very limited and unable to teach them anything new or formulate a game plan based on the two guys fighting.

[Nightmare Roy]

Bad news for Joshua...Teddy Atlas is picking Joshua to beat Hrgovic

https://boxing-social.com/news/teddy-at ... rediction/

hahahah the dreaded vote of Ted!

It was a hard enough fight for AJ as it was IMO, he's doomed now.

[Finkel]

Though I will come to Fury's defence a little. He lost too much weight too fast when he fought Wallin. Off the back of that poor performance, Davison was out and Sugar was in. The Fury from Wilder 2 was a different boxer stylistically and physically to the one who fought Wallin. Hats off to Sugar Hill Steward

Fury made Wallin look decent not because he wasn't as fat as we had come to expect him, but because Fury was not able to look technically great against Wallin .. Wallin is better skilled than the Tom Schwarz, Seferi, Pianetas and Wilder who'd all exaggerated Fury's worth.

Sugar Hill would have only had about 6-8 weeks with Fury before he fought Wilder the 2nd time, nowhere near enough time to give a 31 year old boxer additional skills and change of style. Sugar Hill merely gave him a better game plan, something Boxercise was incapable of doing.

*Off topic. Boxercise is similar to Enzo Calzaghe. Obviously very good at what he does, motivating a boxer to use whatever skills they already have, but technically very limited and unable to teach them anything new or formulate a game plan based on the two guys fighting.

Respectfully disagree. Whilst I acknowledge Wallin is far more technical than Wilder and a southpaw to boot, Fury came in at 254lbs against Wallin, and 274 against Wilder. He looked far stronger and like almost a different athlete. Also, if your new gameplan involves you sitting down on your punches which is not something you have been known to do previously, and becoming predominantly the aggressor rather than a back foot fighter, then I would say your style has been changed. Against Wallin, it was the same Fury from Wilder 1: on his toes, flicking the jab, always moving around, and not fully committing, not sitting down on his punches and not using his body weight in the clinch (though that in fairness was likely to protect the eye). In contrast he was on the front foot against Wilder, kept resetting to the centre of the ring, looking to fight and bully in the clinches, and he threw far less arm punches (which characterised the Wallin performance). For me that is stylistically a different fighter.

[Coco]

Though I will come to Fury's defence a little. He lost too much weight too fast when he fought Wallin. Off the back of that poor performance, Davison was out and Sugar was in. The Fury from Wilder 2 was a different boxer stylistically and physically to the one who fought Wallin. Hats off to Sugar Hill Steward

Fury made Wallin look decent not because he wasn't as fat as we had come to expect him, but because Fury was not able to look technically great against Wallin .. Wallin is better skilled than the Tom Schwarz, Seferi, Pianetas and Wilder who'd all exaggerated Fury's worth.

Sugar Hill would have only had about 6-8 weeks with Fury before he fought Wilder the 2nd time, nowhere near enough time to give a 31 year old boxer additional skills and change of style. Sugar Hill merely gave him a better game plan, something Boxercise was incapable of doing.

*Off topic. Boxercise is similar to Enzo Calzaghe. Obviously very good at what he does, motivating a boxer to use whatever skills they already have, but technically very limited and unable to teach them anything new or formulate a game plan based on the two guys fighting.

Respectfully disagree. Whilst I acknowledge Wallin is far more technical than Wilder and a southpaw to boot, Fury came in at 254lbs against Wallin, and 274 against Wilder. He looked far stronger and like almost a different athlete. Also, if your new gameplan involves you sitting down on your punches which is not something you have been known to do previously, and becoming predominantly the aggressor rather than a back foot fighter, then I would say your style has been changed. Against Wallin, it was the same Fury from Wilder 1: on his toes, flicking the jab, always moving around, and not fully committing, not sitting down on his punches and not using his body weight in the clinch (though that in fairness was likely to protect the eye). In contrast he was on the front foot against Wilder, kept resetting to the centre of the ring, looking to fight and bully in the clinches, and he threw far less arm punches (which characterised the Wallin performance). For me that is stylistically a different fighter.

Enzo took street urchins to champions. He taught them everything, JC, Rees, Cleverly and Pryce. Both Pryces brothers were amateur champions too.
Enzo Macrinelli came to him as an established fighter.
One of JC's big talents was having plan A-Z, surely Enzo was a part of that.
It's true he was also great at motivating fighters, furthermore he was great at conditioning them.

[knockout]

Yesss Enzo and Brendan Ingle took multiple fighters from nappies to world level. That’s class !

[mooman]

Enzo Calzaghe had a very successful gym for awhile. However, unlike the Ingles, Enzo couldn't replicate it. Nothing came after Calzaghe, Rees, and Cleverly.
Success breeds success and it's been discussed before how the sparring in Enzos gym at that time was second to none because each brought the other on.

That's no disrespect to Enzo Calzaghe. He brought his own strengths of charisma to get the best out of the boxers he worked with. Joe Calzaghe was a phenomenon, and he would have flourished under any trainer.

[SeanBrennan]

Super interesting thread, and despite differing opinions, respectful debate. Love it.

[Coco]

Enzo Calzaghe had a very successful gym for awhile. However, unlike the Ingles, Enzo couldn't replicate it. Nothing came after Calzaghe, Rees, and Cleverly.
Success breeds success and it's been discussed before how the sparring in Enzos gym at that time was second to none because each brought the other on.

That's no disrespect to Enzo Calzaghe. He brought his own strengths of charisma to get the best out of the boxers he worked with. Joe Calzaghe was a phenomenon, and he would have flourished under any trainer.

Enzo pretty much gave up after JC had finished, Brendan carried on and had John and Dom to take over.
Nothing came after JC, Rees and Clev because he only had time for them, it was a small outfit, Enzo didn't continue with Newbridge ABC, he didn't have the time.
In Sheffield it's a bigger outfit which still has St.Thomas ABC and then the pro gym.
Howard Rainey, RIP, spent lots of time there too.
Enzo C was a one man band from a small village who did amazingly.

[SeanBrennan]

Enzo Calzaghe had a very successful gym for awhile. However, unlike the Ingles, Enzo couldn't replicate it. Nothing came after Calzaghe, Rees, and Cleverly.
Success breeds success and it's been discussed before how the sparring in Enzos gym at that time was second to none because each brought the other on.

That's no disrespect to Enzo Calzaghe. He brought his own strengths of charisma to get the best out of the boxers he worked with. Joe Calzaghe was a phenomenon, and he would have flourished under any trainer.

Enzo pretty much gave up after JC had finished, Brendan carried on and had John and Dom to take over.
Nothing came after JC, Rees and Clev because he only had time for them, it was a small outfit, Enzo didn't continue with Newbridge ABC, he didn't have the time.
In Sheffield it's a bigger outfit which still has St.Thomas ABC and then the pro gym.
Howard Rainey, RIP, spent lots of time there too.
Enzo C was a one man band from a small village who did amazingly.

he sure did Coco. Did a lot for the Pryce's especially.

[mooman]

Enzo Calzaghe had a very successful gym for awhile. However, unlike the Ingles, Enzo couldn't replicate it. Nothing came after Calzaghe, Rees, and Cleverly.
Success breeds success and it's been discussed before how the sparring in Enzos gym at that time was second to none because each brought the other on.

That's no disrespect to Enzo Calzaghe. He brought his own strengths of charisma to get the best out of the boxers he worked with. Joe Calzaghe was a phenomenon, and he would have flourished under any trainer.

Enzo pretty much gave up after JC had finished, Brendan carried on and had John and Dom to take over.
Nothing came after JC, Rees and Clev because he only had time for them, it was a small outfit, Enzo didn't continue with Newbridge ABC, he didn't have the time.
In Sheffield it's a bigger outfit which still has St.Thomas ABC and then the pro gym.
Howard Rainey, RIP, spent lots of time there too.
Enzo C was a one man band from a small village who did amazingly.

Enzo did great that can't be argued. However he wasn't the original trainer at Newbridge when Joe started, and he wasn't the only trainer there throughout the proceeding years either.

For me, Joe brought the magic to that gym. Because for whatever reasons, Enzo couldn't/didn't have any other success outside of the Joe, Rees, Cleverly, Pryce era.

[coneye]

Enzo Calzaghe had a very successful gym for awhile. However, unlike the Ingles, Enzo couldn't replicate it. Nothing came after Calzaghe, Rees, and Cleverly.
Success breeds success and it's been discussed before how the sparring in Enzos gym at that time was second to none because each brought the other on.

That's no disrespect to Enzo Calzaghe. He brought his own strengths of charisma to get the best out of the boxers he worked with. Joe Calzaghe was a phenomenon, and he would have flourished under any trainer.

Enzo pretty much gave up after JC had finished, Brendan carried on and had John and Dom to take over.
Nothing came after JC, Rees and Clev because he only had time for them, it was a small outfit, Enzo didn't continue with Newbridge ABC, he didn't have the time.
In Sheffield it's a bigger outfit which still has St.Thomas ABC and then the pro gym.
Howard Rainey, RIP, spent lots of time there too.
Enzo C was a one man band from a small village who did amazingly.

Enzo did great that can't be argued. However he wasn't the original trainer at Newbridge when Joe started, and he wasn't the only trainer there throughout the proceeding years either.

For me, Joe brought the magic to that gym. Because for whatever reasons, Enzo couldn't/didn't have any other success outside of the Joe, Rees, Cleverly, Pryce era.

How hard is it to find kids / men who have the goods to be champions , they don't grow on trees ,Nope one walks in your lucky , 2 your getting luckier go buy a lotto ticket , but when your 4 -5 up , especielly in a small gym , i think you have to start acknoladging that trainers success rate , Course has said success breeds success , but even top lads can falter and go stagnent with the wrong coach . .

What i also believe is it works the other way , if you have a gym of top lads / men and there not improving , your doing something wrong , and this is where the celebrity trainers fall down , Davidson for me a prime example , , good fighters go to him based on his resume , but don't improve , but his resume grows and the circle forms ,

Want to look at the good trainers, look at who taught them and / or who improved them at a later stage ,

forget the celebrity trainer who , trained him for a few months , then had a great promoter pay the right money to get an easy fight example AJ - Wallin , and now Benn is saying he's confident he can right the Usyk wrong ,, Very easy to say when you know its never gonna happen ,

[Coco]

Enzo had success for like 20 years, pretty much with the same group of boys he found roaming the street as kids. The gym didn't have success before or after.

[coneye]

Enzo had success for like 20 years, pretty much with the same group of boys he found roaming the street as kids. The gym didn't have success before or after.

Pretty much says it all about Enzo then does'nt it . and whats more its easy to get these lads in do a good sometimes great job with them , put heh presto you look aroud 10-12-- 15 years later and theres no one especielly if your virtually a one man band ,, simple explanation has well , you have a bunch of jnrs ,, do a good job and there winning ,,, before you know it 4-5 years have past and there snrs , there still doing well , winning titles , schoolboys , maybe ABA's , but they need more focused training and before you know it there finished and turning pro maybee ,,, - you hit the pro scene and if you and them are lucky they do well , but all the time , they each need more time with you , then one day you look around , and relize , shit all my time has been with them and you don't have any others comig through , because , you just did'nt have time on your own to take the new kids on . . So what do you do , start again or say when this lot finish so do i , course its different for a big gym with multiple trainers

[SeanBrennan]

Enzo had success for like 20 years, pretty much with the same group of boys he found roaming the street as kids. The gym didn't have success before or after.

Pretty much says it all about Enzo then does'nt it . and whats more its easy to get these lads in do a good sometimes great job with them , put heh presto you look aroud 10-12-- 15 years later and theres no one especielly if your virtually a one man band ,, simple explanation has well , you have a bunch of jnrs ,, do a good job and there winning ,,, before you know it 4-5 years have past and there snrs , there still doing well , winning titles , schoolboys , maybe ABA's , but they need more focused training and before you know it there finished and turning pro maybee ,,, - you hit the pro scene and if you and them are lucky they do well , but all the time , they each need more time with you , then one day you look around , and relize , shit all my time has been with them and you don't have any others comig through , because , you just did'nt have time on your own to take the new kids on . . So what do you do , start again or say when this lot finish so do i , course its different for a big gym with multiple trainers

excellent context for why one man can't produce generational talent repeatedly.