BoxRec

margaret thatcher wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 04:33 its because its on boxing scene and boxrec auto changes boxing scene urls to BS, which makes the links not work

Thanks, go it.

Like the questions of what might have been for an uninjured Vitali, we’ll never know. All we have is what was. In Vitali, we have a fighter who for many is probably more fun to imagine against the biggest names of all time. Vitali left a big impression, no matter the depth of his resume, with enough time served and quality wins to lend substance to any imaginings.

In Wladimir, we had a heavyweight who proved that no ledger is worth evaluating until it can be viewed in full. Wladimir might rate all-time behind a Holmes or Lewis, but his efforts were still enough to be worthy of comparison and no discussion of the great heavyweight title reigns is complete without him. He will join his brother in the Hall of Fame soon.

Verdicts:

Vitali Klitschko - Borderline Hall of Fame Accomplishments; Top heavyweight in any era

Wladimir Klitschko - All Time Great Heavyweight Champion

This seems pretty balanced to me.

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 05:44 Like the questions of what might have been for an uninjured Vitali, we’ll never know. All we have is what was. In Vitali, we have a fighter who for many is probably more fun to imagine against the biggest names of all time. Vitali left a big impression, no matter the depth of his resume, with enough time served and quality wins to lend substance to any imaginings.

In Wladimir, we had a heavyweight who proved that no ledger is worth evaluating until it can be viewed in full. Wladimir might rate all-time behind a Holmes or Lewis, but his efforts were still enough to be worthy of comparison and no discussion of the great heavyweight title reigns is complete without him. He will join his brother in the Hall of Fame soon.

Verdicts:

Vitali Klitschko - Borderline Hall of Fame Accomplishments; Top heavyweight in any era

Wladimir Klitschko - All Time Great Heavyweight Champion

This seems pretty balanced to me.

Well, for me, losses count and there is no mention of any in that statement.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 05:53

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 05:44 Like the questions of what might have been for an uninjured Vitali, we’ll never know. All we have is what was. In Vitali, we have a fighter who for many is probably more fun to imagine against the biggest names of all time. Vitali left a big impression, no matter the depth of his resume, with enough time served and quality wins to lend substance to any imaginings.

In Wladimir, we had a heavyweight who proved that no ledger is worth evaluating until it can be viewed in full. Wladimir might rate all-time behind a Holmes or Lewis, but his efforts were still enough to be worthy of comparison and no discussion of the great heavyweight title reigns is complete without him. He will join his brother in the Hall of Fame soon.

Verdicts:

Vitali Klitschko - Borderline Hall of Fame Accomplishments; Top heavyweight in any era

Wladimir Klitschko - All Time Great Heavyweight Champion

This seems pretty balanced to me.

Well, for me, losses count and there is no mention of any in that statement.

There is in the whole article. This is just the summation.

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 05:56

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 05:53

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 05:44 Like the questions of what might have been for an uninjured Vitali, we’ll never know. All we have is what was. In Vitali, we have a fighter who for many is probably more fun to imagine against the biggest names of all time. Vitali left a big impression, no matter the depth of his resume, with enough time served and quality wins to lend substance to any imaginings.

In Wladimir, we had a heavyweight who proved that no ledger is worth evaluating until it can be viewed in full. Wladimir might rate all-time behind a Holmes or Lewis, but his efforts were still enough to be worthy of comparison and no discussion of the great heavyweight title reigns is complete without him. He will join his brother in the Hall of Fame soon.

Verdicts:

Vitali Klitschko - Borderline Hall of Fame Accomplishments; Top heavyweight in any era

Wladimir Klitschko - All Time Great Heavyweight Champion

This seems pretty balanced to me.

Well, for me, losses count and there is no mention of any in that statement.

There is in the whole article. This is just the summation.

Do you think Vitali should have continued against Chris Byrd? Danny Williams style.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:01

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 05:56

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 05:53

Well, for me, losses count and there is no mention of any in that statement.

There is in the whole article. This is just the summation.

Do you think Vitali should have continued against Chris Byrd? Danny Williams style.

No. I think it's an ideology left over from a bygone time. Great for Williams. And applause when it comes off. But in no other sport do we expect people to go on with an injury.

Look at Dubois? He retired against Joyce but look where he is now. That retirement might have saved him and led to his current success.

"Retirement" through injury is a part of every sport. When I read people squealing "quit" I just skim over their nonsense, just too transparent.

In terms of VK he was winning the fight too. He wasn't looking for a way out (unlike Whittaker at the weekend).

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:21 No. I think it's an ideology left over from a bygone time. Great for Williams. And applause when it comes off. But in no other sport do we expect people to go on with an injury.

Unlike other sports, in boxing the ability to take punishment is part of the game.

wouter wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:47

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:21 No. I think it's an ideology left over from a bygone time. Great for Williams. And applause when it comes off. But in no other sport do we expect people to go on with an injury.

Unlike other sports, in boxing the ability to take punishment is part of the game.

If you're injured then a retirement is perfectly acceptable. Nobody should be expected to continue. He lost the fight because of it. His stock went down. He rebuilt. Byrd's went up. We move on.

VK was clearly winning the fight. He was a great competitor.

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:51

wouter wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:47

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:21 No. I think it's an ideology left over from a bygone time. Great for Williams. And applause when it comes off. But in no other sport do we expect people to go on with an injury.

Unlike other sports, in boxing the ability to take punishment is part of the game.

If you're injured then a retirement is perfectly acceptable. Nobody should be expected to continue. He lost the fight because of it. His stock went down. He rebuilt. Byrd's went up. We move on.

VK was clearly winning the fight. He was a great competitor.

VK was the better of the two brothers IMO, unfortunately he'll always have the 'what was his best win' question to contend with when ranking him as an ATG.

And the era both fought their championship fights in damages them both from an ATG perspective, as it was a horrible era to watch heavyweight boxing, by far the worst in my lifetime

Flump wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:16

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:51

wouter wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:47
Unlike other sports, in boxing the ability to take punishment is part of the game.

If you're injured then a retirement is perfectly acceptable. Nobody should be expected to continue. He lost the fight because of it. His stock went down. He rebuilt. Byrd's went up. We move on.

VK was clearly winning the fight. He was a great competitor.

VK was the better of the two brothers IMO, unfortunately he'll always have the 'what was his best win' question to contend with when ranking him as an ATG.

And the era both fought their championship fights in damages them both from an ATG perspective, as it was a horrible era to watch heavyweight boxing, by far the worst in my lifetime

I think I'm with you on this. VK would always be a dangerous fighter for anyone.

Both were great with some negatives to contend with.

Flump wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:16

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:51

wouter wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:47
Unlike other sports, in boxing the ability to take punishment is part of the game.

If you're injured then a retirement is perfectly acceptable. Nobody should be expected to continue. He lost the fight because of it. His stock went down. He rebuilt. Byrd's went up. We move on.

VK was clearly winning the fight. He was a great competitor.

VK was the better of the two brothers IMO, unfortunately he'll always have the 'what was his best win' question to contend with when ranking him as an ATG.

And the era both fought their championship fights in damages them both from an ATG perspective, as it was a horrible era to watch heavyweight boxing, by far the worst in my lifetime

VK is somewhat unique among heavyweight champions.  He really is.  After further review of his  long career it dawned on me that he has never been behind on the score cards.  Not vs. Lewis or Byrd.  Or any other opponent. Who can claim that?  Yes, he fought plenty of ring magazine ranked opponents in the top ten, just like the famous champions.

pound per pound wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:25

Flump wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:16

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:51

If you're injured then a retirement is perfectly acceptable. Nobody should be expected to continue. He lost the fight because of it. His stock went down. He rebuilt. Byrd's went up. We move on.

VK was clearly winning the fight. He was a great competitor.

VK was the better of the two brothers IMO, unfortunately he'll always have the 'what was his best win' question to contend with when ranking him as an ATG.

And the era both fought their championship fights in damages them both from an ATG perspective, as it was a horrible era to watch heavyweight boxing, by far the worst in my lifetime

VK is somewhat unique among heavyweight champions.  He really is.  After further review of his  long career it dawned on me that he has never been behind on the score cards.  Not vs. Lewis or Byrd.  Or any other opponent. Who can claim that?  Yes, he fought plenty of ring magazine ranked opponents in the top ten, just like the famous champions.

Ah, that old chestnut.

Difficult to be behind on the cards when you're fighting old fat slobs. It doesn't matter where the Ring ranked them. What matters is their names. Kevin Johnson, Juan Carlos Gomez, Danny Williams, Chris Arreola etc. Horrific.

Talk about a murderers row.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 10:27

pound per pound wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:25

Flump wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:16

VK was the better of the two brothers IMO, unfortunately he'll always have the 'what was his best win' question to contend with when ranking him as an ATG.

And the era both fought their championship fights in damages them both from an ATG perspective, as it was a horrible era to watch heavyweight boxing, by far the worst in my lifetime

VK is somewhat unique among heavyweight champions.  He really is.  After further review of his  long career it dawned on me that he has never been behind on the score cards.  Not vs. Lewis or Byrd.  Or any other opponent. Who can claim that?  Yes, he fought plenty of ring magazine ranked opponents in the top ten, just like the famous champions.

Ah, that old chestnut.

Difficult to be behind on the cards when you're fighting old fat slobs. It doesn't matter where the Ring ranked them. What matters is their names. Kevin Johnson, Juan Carlos Gomez, Danny Williams, Chris Arreola etc. Horrific.

Old and Fat? False. Check the fighters age when they fought VK. He fought many prime fighters which you have listed. I'll help you out, Billy.

Williams was 31, Arreola was 28, Johnson was 30. They were in thier primes. The only thing horrific is you wrong data and agenda.

Come to think of it, VK was so good the most he lost on ANY scorecard* was two rounds in 47 fights. Who else among heavyweight histoy can boast that?

Asking you, Mr. expert of false information.

pound per pound wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:25

Flump wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:16

Ezzard wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 06:51

If you're injured then a retirement is perfectly acceptable. Nobody should be expected to continue. He lost the fight because of it. His stock went down. He rebuilt. Byrd's went up. We move on.

VK was clearly winning the fight. He was a great competitor.

VK was the better of the two brothers IMO, unfortunately he'll always have the 'what was his best win' question to contend with when ranking him as an ATG.

And the era both fought their championship fights in damages them both from an ATG perspective, as it was a horrible era to watch heavyweight boxing, by far the worst in my lifetime

VK is somewhat unique among heavyweight champions.  He really is.  After further review of his  long career it dawned on me that he has never been behind on the score cards.  Not vs. Lewis or Byrd.  Or any other opponent. Who can claim that?  Yes, he fought plenty of ring magazine ranked opponents in the top ten, just like the famous champions.

He easily could have continued against Byrd. he literally just had to stand up for three more rounds, against a pillow puncher, and he goes the distance. Lewis was terrible in that fight, and he still could only last 6 rounds. If he was a hard puncher he would have stopped Lewis. If he had a decent defense, his face would not have looked like that and he would not have been stopped.
He was unable to finish either the Lewis or Byrd fights. (He never fought anyone else that was that good.) That is what is important. Nobody ever says this kind of thing for any other fighter. They try to give him credit for losing. We should not be
bending over backwards making excuses and actually giving him credit in these situations.

Jaywheel wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 10:41 Talk about a murderers row.

You don't think Kevin Johnson, Juan Carlos Gomez, Danny Williams, Chris Arreola etc. aren't a murders row?

pound per pound wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 14:47

Billy Tully wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 10:27

pound per pound wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 07:25


VK is somewhat unique among heavyweight champions.  He really is.  After further review of his  long career it dawned on me that he has never been behind on the score cards.  Not vs. Lewis or Byrd.  Or any other opponent. Who can claim that?  Yes, he fought plenty of ring magazine ranked opponents in the top ten, just like the famous champions.

Ah, that old chestnut.

Difficult to be behind on the cards when you're fighting old fat slobs. It doesn't matter where the Ring ranked them. What matters is their names. Kevin Johnson, Juan Carlos Gomez, Danny Williams, Chris Arreola etc. Horrific.

Old and Fat? False. Check the fighters age when they fought VK. He fought many prime fighters which you have listed. I'll help you out, Billy.

Williams was 31, Arreola was 28, Johnson was 30. They were in thier primes. The only thing horrific is you wrong data and agenda.

Come to think of it, VK was so good the most he lost on ANY scorecard* was two rounds in 47 fights. Who else among heavyweight histoy can boast that?

Asking you, Mr. expert of false information.

Oh grow up. The biggest Names he beat are Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs who were fat 40 year olds.

Can you name ANY heavyweight greats who would lose rounds to Vitali's victims? That little thought exercise might shake you out of your infantile hero worship. Vitali's career was easy and his opposition weak.

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 18:09

Jaywheel wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 10:41 Talk about a murderers row.

You don't think Kevin Johnson, Juan Carlos Gomez, Danny Williams, Chris Arreola etc. aren't a murders row?

I'm still laughing at "prime Kevin Johnson". Don't think I've seen those three words in a sentence before.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑19 Oct 2024, 03:40 Oh grow up. The biggest Names he beat are Corrie Sanders

And that was only a big deal because Corrie completely flattened Wlad, although for some, that loss proves Wlad wasn't in his prime.

Billy Tully wrote: ↑19 Oct 2024, 03:40

pound per pound wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 14:47

Billy Tully wrote: ↑18 Oct 2024, 10:27

Ah, that old chestnut.

Difficult to be behind on the cards when you're fighting old fat slobs. It doesn't matter where the Ring ranked them. What matters is their names. Kevin Johnson, Juan Carlos Gomez, Danny Williams, Chris Arreola etc. Horrific.

Old and Fat? False. Check the fighters age when they fought VK. He fought many prime fighters which you have listed. I'll help you out, Billy.

Williams was 31, Arreola was 28, Johnson was 30. They were in thier primes. The only thing horrific is you wrong data and agenda.

Come to think of it, VK was so good the most he lost on ANY scorecard* was two rounds in 47 fights. Who else among heavyweight histoy can boast that?

Asking you, Mr. expert of false information.

Oh grow up. The biggest Names he beat are Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs who were fat 40 year olds.

Can you name ANY heavyweight greats who would lose rounds to Vitali's victims? That little thought exercise might shake you out of your infantile hero worship. Vitali's career was easy and his opposition weak.

You are wrong again. Neither Sanders or Briggs were 40.  

Briggs was not among Vitali's top wins, and again I defer to Ring Magazine ratings at the time of the fight.

Peter, Sanders, and Adamek were all rated by Ring Magazine inside the top 3 when VK fought them. Either he or his brother occupied two of the spots making it difficult for other fighters to be rated 1, 2, or 3.

Can I name past heavyweight greats that would lose rounds to VK's victims?    I sure can.    I  will start with Muhammad Ali.  Is he good enough? Well, he lost rounds to lesser fighters who were not even ranked in some cases.

Case closed.

-P4P

Talking about a longtime unified heavyweight reign being not a HoF achievement is bullcrap, be it a good era or a not so good one. With Vitali it's more complicated. He became famous for giving a fight to Lewis, but then left the best opposition for his brother. His WBC reign was sh1t. He was inducted for that and they'll do the same with Wilder.

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Oct 2024, 01:03 Talking about a longtime unified heavyweight reign being not a HoF achievement is bullcrap, be it a good era or a not so good one. With Vitali it's more complicated. He became famous for giving a fight to Lewis, but then left the best opposition for his brother. His WBC reign was sh1t. He was inducted for that and they'll do the same with Wilder.

Dr. Duke,

Vitali was a 1st year eligible inductee, and the leading vote getter in his class.

Wilder does not rate. What are his best wins and the scorecards of those fights?

Vitali beat two of the guys who beat his brother, badly I might add.

pound per pound wrote: ↑20 Oct 2024, 07:32

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Oct 2024, 01:03 Talking about a longtime unified heavyweight reign being not a HoF achievement is bullcrap, be it a good era or a not so good one. With Vitali it's more complicated. He became famous for giving a fight to Lewis, but then left the best opposition for his brother. His WBC reign was sh1t. He was inducted for that and they'll do the same with Wilder.

Dr. Duke,

Vitali was a 1st year eligible inductee, and the leading vote getter in his class.

Wilder does not rate. What are his best wins and the scorecards of those fights?

Vitali beat two of the guys who beat his brother, badly I might add.

Still Vitali's resume isn't really HoF worthy. The likes of Pinklon Thomas and Toney Tucker aren't worse. Tucker beat Douglas, who beat Tyson.

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Oct 2024, 12:23

pound per pound wrote: ↑20 Oct 2024, 07:32

DrDuke wrote: ↑20 Oct 2024, 01:03 Talking about a longtime unified heavyweight reign being not a HoF achievement is bullcrap, be it a good era or a not so good one. With Vitali it's more complicated. He became famous for giving a fight to Lewis, but then left the best opposition for his brother. His WBC reign was sh1t. He was inducted for that and they'll do the same with Wilder.

Dr. Duke,

Vitali was a 1st year eligible inductee, and the leading vote getter in his class.

Wilder does not rate. What are his best wins and the scorecards of those fights?

Vitali beat two of the guys who beat his brother, badly I might add.

Still Vitali's resume isn't really HoF worthy. The likes of Pinklon Thomas and Toney Tucker aren't worse. Tucker beat Douglas, who beat Tyson.

Yes it is. Like I said he was a 1st year eligible inductee, and the leading vote getter in his class. .

Danny Williams beat Tyson by the way. What did VK do to him? He beat him badly not losing a round.

Both Klit's deserve to be in the HOF.
I personally didn't care for their era. Lacked depth and name recognition