BoxRec

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Aug 2025, 14:28 I wonder if Duran will make the top 17 with all of those losses?

Now, now Alp. Duran didn't lose a single fight, all the losses were fixes, can't you see that. His manager screwed him, especially for the Hearns fight, which was the biggest fix of all.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 08:14

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Aug 2025, 14:28 I wonder if Duran will make the top 17 with all of those losses?

Now, now Alp. Duran didn't lose a single fight, all the losses were fixes, can't you see that. His manager screwed him, especially for the Hearns fight, which was the biggest fix of all.

I have already know that you don't like the great Roberto Duran. It doesn't make sense to have a decent debate with you.

Duran was an incredible boxer. Top 5 all-time pound per pound. He could be measured with the all time very best. Greetings.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 12:52

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 08:14

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Aug 2025, 14:28 I wonder if Duran will make the top 17 with all of those losses?

Now, now Alp. Duran didn't lose a single fight, all the losses were fixes, can't you see that. His manager screwed him, especially for the Hearns fight, which was the biggest fix of all.

I have already know that you don't like the great Roberto Duran. It doesn't make sense to have a decent debate with you.

Duran was an incredible boxer. Top 5 all-time pound per pound. He could be measured with the all time very best. Greetings.

I think most Boxing fans appreciate Roberto Duran. We're just not so delusional about him that we blame his manager when HE loses.

Duran is unquestionably one of the all time greatest fighters, but he's not invincible or unbeatable. Nobody that ever lived is.

So he doesn't need excuses for fights he lost. Making constant excuses for failures in life is a sign of weakness. A sign that you can't accept your own responsibility for something, and need to blame someone else. It points to a lack of maturity.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 12:52

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 08:14

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑17 Aug 2025, 14:28 I wonder if Duran will make the top 17 with all of those losses?

Now, now Alp. Duran didn't lose a single fight, all the losses were fixes, can't you see that. His manager screwed him, especially for the Hearns fight, which was the biggest fix of all.

I have already know that you don't like the great Roberto Duran. It doesn't make sense to have a decent debate with you.

Duran was an incredible boxer. Top 5 all-time pound per pound. He could be measured with the all time very best. Greetings.

I'm not a Duran fan, I admit, but I don't let that cloud my judgement. Roberto is an all time great and one of the best lightweights ever. I rate Benny Leonard higher, as did the guy who trained them both. His win over Leonard was a fantastic achievement, but the way he just quit in the rematch was reprehensible. I would argue Leonard fought the wrong fight in the first fight, but he is the only person to blame for that and he lost a close decision. In the rematch, Leonard outclassed Duran, embarrassed him and made him quit. That's my opinion of him. Your opinion is the No Mas fight was a fix. One of us is delusional, I'll let you decide which.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 13:36

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 12:52

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 08:14
Now, now Alp. Duran didn't lose a single fight, all the losses were fixes, can't you see that. His manager screwed him, especially for the Hearns fight, which was the biggest fix of all.

I have already know that you don't like the great Roberto Duran. It doesn't make sense to have a decent debate with you.

Duran was an incredible boxer. Top 5 all-time pound per pound. He could be measured with the all time very best. Greetings.

I'm not a Duran fan, I admit, but I don't let that cloud my judgement. Roberto is an all time great and one of the best lightweights ever. I rate Benny Leonard higher, as did the guy who trained them both. His win over Leonard was a fantastic achievement, but the way he just quit in the rematch was reprehensible. I would argue Leonard fought the wrong fight in the first fight, but he is the only person to blame for that and he lost a close decision. In the rematch, Leonard outclassed Duran, embarrassed him and made him quit. That's my opinion of him. Your opinion is the No Mas fight was a fix. One of us is delusional, I'll let you decide which.

The No Mas was a dirty fix. Not a fix, but a very dirty one. A rematch that was done on uneven terms to favor the American Golden Boy of Boxing and to make a way for the Latin bully to lose in the most possible way. There was no sportsmanship whatsoever. The whole thing was suspicious.

The first fight was all on even terms. Both guys trained as scheduled and the best man won, which was Roberto Duran. He fought his ass off and won. Give him credit for that. That Sugar Ray Leonard didn't fight his fight was a commercialized baloney excuse. He always fought in attacking mode, going forward. There was no guarantee that if he "fought his fight" he would have beaten a focused Manos de Piedra. The guy trained the best way he can.

The second fight, his own manager, Carlos Eleta, BETRAYED HIM and SOLD HIM for $8 million dollars. He got baited, it worked in Sugar Ray's favor and not Duran's. You can't fight your opponent and your own manager too. Duran saw that everything was against his wishes and he quit. Not because Sugar Ray was better. Because he didn't had nothing on his favor. He knew that he was screwed.

That rematch was won by Sugar Ray Leonard as soon as Duran's manager greed and betrayal forced him to sign the dotted line without consulting his fighter. What a betrayal for the ages! And a great outside strategy by the Leonard camp. It worked.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 12:57

elmersalsa wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 12:52

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑18 Aug 2025, 08:14
Now, now Alp. Duran didn't lose a single fight, all the losses were fixes, can't you see that. His manager screwed him, especially for the Hearns fight, which was the biggest fix of all.

I have already know that you don't like the great Roberto Duran. It doesn't make sense to have a decent debate with you.

Duran was an incredible boxer. Top 5 all-time pound per pound. He could be measured with the all time very best. Greetings.

I think most Boxing fans appreciate Roberto Duran. We're just not so delusional about him that we blame his manager when HE loses.

Duran is unquestionably one of the all time greatest fighters, but he's not invincible or unbeatable. Nobody that ever lived is.

So he doesn't need excuses for fights he lost. Making constant excuses for failures in life is a sign of weakness. A sign that you can't accept your own responsibility for something, and need to blame someone else. It points to a lack of maturity.

Did I made an excuse when Roberto Duran lost to Esteban De Jesus? Find a post in this forum that I have given Duran an excuse for his first ever loss.

DeJesus was THE ONLY ONE, that really beat Duran in Duran's prime. On even terms. Both trained for the fight. Both fought their asses off, and the Puerto Rican won. Plain and simple.

De Jesus camp didn't go to Panama hush-hush to negotiate. They never give Duran's manager, Carlos Eleta, $8 million dollars desperately to gain the advantage and regain the title. De Jesus won. And he is THE ONLY ONE, THE ONLY ONE that beat Duran in Duran's prime. No excuses.

But, that No Mas fiasco was a dirty fix from the beginning. Never in the history of boxing, a fighter's camp has ever gone DESPERATELY to another's fighter's camp to give $8 million dollars for a rematch. It hasn't been done before nor since. And never seen a manager so greedy and desperate for money and screw the reputation and interest of his fighter by betraying him in so brutal fashion. Duran got fuccked over by his own manager because of greed.

The other losses by Duran were after his prime ended. All those losses were just losses. They didn't beat a prime Duran. Just like you don't count Sugar Ray's losses to Terrible Terry Norris and Hector "Macho" Camacho, right? Or do they count?

You don't count Muhammad Ali's losses to Ken Norton, Leon Spinks and Larry Holmes, right? Or do they count?

Answer me. Why those losses don't count, but Duran's after No Mas losses do count?

Muhammad Ali's losses count. Everybody's wins and losses count. Duran wasn't past his prime in the Leonard rematch he was out of shape because he was too lazy to be properly prepared.

That's not the same thing as his loss to say William Joppy when he clearly was past it, and just shouldn't have been doing it anymore. It doesn't diminish his legacy much because fans recognize it as what it is. We recognize the Leonard rematch as what it was too. A guy that couldn't beat a better fighter giving up in the middle of a round, and quitting.

He wasn't old when he lost the Leonard rematch. He was 29 years old.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 17:35 Muhammad Ali's losses count. Everybody's wins and losses count.

They count now, right? But, years ago some people in this forum were saying that those losses didn't count. Especially, Muhammad Ali's loss to Smokin' Joe Frazier. That it wasn't prime Ali.

In my view, Ali also lost to Ken Norton 3 times! Floyd Mayweather Jr also said that Norton won all those fights. That doesn't take Ali's greatness.

Smokin' Joe fought his ass off, but didn't get the credit in this forum for some. And why? Ali was rusted? He had a layoff? He was out of boxing for 3 years. Those were ridiculous excuses.

Why Roberto Duran could not have excuses like Ali?
Why Duran can't have excuses like Sugar Ray Leonard that he "didn't fight his fight"?

Excuses work for some favorites, not for Roberto Duran.

Ali didn't make excuses for one thing. He took his loss like a man.

It's also weird that you assume All American fight fans love all American fighters. We don't. Lots of fans couldn't stand Ali and Leonard in their own country.

I respect the hell out of both of em, but if I had been alive when Ali was fighting Frazier I 100% would've been cheering for Frazier.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 17:35 Muhammad Ali's losses count. Everybody's wins and losses count. Duran wasn't past his prime in the Leonard rematch he was out of shape because he was too lazy to be properly prepared.

That's not the same thing as his loss to say William Joppy when he clearly was past it, and just shouldn't have been doing it anymore. It doesn't diminish his legacy much because fans recognize it as what it is. We recognize the Leonard rematch as what it was too. A guy that couldn't beat a better fighter giving up in the middle of a round, and quitting.

He wasn't old when he lost the Leonard rematch. He was 29 years old.

You don't want to accept that it on UNEVEN TERMS. And why? One guy trained. The other guy didn't and couldn't because he got screwed and didn't get the time to train. That's not sportsmanship. You should let the other guy train. Roberto Duran was the champion, right? Do you think that if he was in the negotiating table for the rematch, he would have accept the fight then in short notice?

NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD!

It was a dirty fix to make Sugar Ray Leonard good. And Duran to fail. The whole thing was suspicious. The whole thing was WICKED. It was designed to accommodate the Golden Boy (larger ring, $8 million dollar bait, betrayal, don't let the other guy have time to train, put Ray Charles to sing America the Beautiful, etc, etc, etc).

It was one of the most UNEVEN MATCHES ever done in boxing. It was so dirty, that it was most talked than than the original fight.

That Duran quit, was unacceptable. But, I can see now why he quit. Everything was wicked and against his favor.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 17:51 Ali didn't make excuses for one thing. He took his loss like a man.

What about the excuse that he was on the exile and had not fight in 3 years. That's one of the greatest excuses by the American boxing media of all-time.

Nothing stopped Duran from training except Duran. Nothing is stopping you from dropping down and cranking out 150 push-ups right now. Or jogging a mile.

You just don't want to right? Same thing for him. He could've. He didn't. That's on him. Nobody else.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:00

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 17:51 Ali didn't make excuses for one thing. He took his loss like a man.

What about the excuse that he was on the exile and had not fight in 3 years. That's one of the greatest excuses by the American boxing media of all-time.

What about it? I don't respect that excuse any more than I respect any other.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:04 Nothing stopped Duran from training except Duran. Nothing is stopping you from dropping down and cranking out 150 push-ups right now. Or jogging a mile.

You just don't want to right? Same thing for him. He could've. He didn't. That's on him. Nobody else.

They didn't give him time. That's the difference. Nobody in the history of boxing, has ever been hoodwinked and betrayed by his own manager. Nobody!

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:05

elmersalsa wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:00

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 17:51 Ali didn't make excuses for one thing. He took his loss like a man.

What about the excuse that he was on the exile and had not fight in 3 years. That's one of the greatest excuses by the American boxing media of all-time.

What about it? I don't respect that excuse any more than I respect any other.

This forum is all for it for that excuse. It was excusable by some. But Duran's manager betrayal wasn't. Both got to be excusable, right? Just like "I didn't fight my fight"

And what about the other American excuse:

Sugar Ray Robinson lost because of the heat. Wasn't Joey Maxim taking the heat of the arena, too? Or he was heat-proof? Maxim didn't get any credit, either.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:12

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:04 Nothing stopped Duran from training except Duran. Nothing is stopping you from dropping down and cranking out 150 push-ups right now. Or jogging a mile.

You just don't want to right? Same thing for him. He could've. He didn't. That's on him. Nobody else.

They didn't give him time. That's the difference. Nobody in the history of boxing, has ever been hoodwinked and betrayed by his own manager. Nobody!

Leonard had the same exact amount of time between the 1st fight with Duran and the rematch as Duran did.

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:20

elmersalsa wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:12

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 18:04 Nothing stopped Duran from training except Duran. Nothing is stopping you from dropping down and cranking out 150 push-ups right now. Or jogging a mile.

You just don't want to right? Same thing for him. He could've. He didn't. That's on him. Nobody else.

They didn't give him time. That's the difference. Nobody in the history of boxing, has ever been hoodwinked and betrayed by his own manager. Nobody!

Leonard had the same exact amount of time between the 1st fight with Duran and the rematch as Duran did.

No he didn't. Stop it! Please stop it!

Sugar Ray Leonard already was training for two months before Carlos Eleta signed the dotted line of betrayal. Stop it!

Check the record. The record don't lie. The first fight both of them had after the first fight is the rematch. That's a fact jack.

Leonard wanted it more, trained harder, and won.

Honestly I'm quite sure he would've won the rematch regardless of what Duran had done to prepare. He fought a smarter fight that time. Duran may not have quit if he had prepared better, but then again he might've. We'll never know for sure. The only thing we'll always know for sure is on the night of November 25, 1980. Leonard was the better boxer than Duran.

What’s the argument? Is it that Duran didn’t have enough time to train so there is no way he could win the fight?
Or, is it that Duran didn’t have enough time to train so he said , the hell with it and quit?
No matter what the circumstances were, two things are true. Duran was an all time great, and there is no excuse for quitting like that.

Expug wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 23:27 What’s the argument? Is it that Duran didn’t have enough time to train so there is no way he could win the fight?
Or, is it that Duran didn’t have enough time to train so he said , the hell with it and quit?
No matter what the circumstances were, two things are true. Duran was an all time great, and there is no excuse for quitting like that.

The argument is apparently whatever it needs to be in case Duran loses.

elmersalsa wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 17:16 Duran's manager greed and betrayal forced him to sign the dotted line without consulting his fighter.

Which tactics did they use to force Duran to sign the contract? Gunpoint? Thumbscrews? Waterboarding?

gilgamesh wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 20:15 Check the record. The record don't lie. The first fight both of them had after the first fight is the rematch. That's a fact jack.

Leonard wanted it more, trained harder, and won.

Honestly I'm quite sure he would've won the rematch regardless of what Duran had done to prepare. He fought a smarter fight that time. Duran may not have quit if he had prepared better, but then again he might've. We'll never know for sure. The only thing we'll always know for sure is on the night of November 25, 1980. Leonard was the better boxer than Duran.

No, he didn't. Sugar Ray Leonard was already training when Carlos Eleta, made the betrayal by signing the greedy line. Roberto Duran was not in the negotiations. Everything was hush-hush.

We can say that Leonard was better without knowing what happened behind the scenes. But, that fight was one of the phoniest and wickedest operations done to a fighter. It was never done before. And it will never be done since.

keithmoonhangover wrote: ↑21 Aug 2025, 04:23

elmersalsa wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 17:16 Duran's manager greed and betrayal forced him to sign the dotted line without consulting his fighter.

Which tactics did they use to force Duran to sign the contract? Gunpoint? Thumbscrews? Waterboarding?

Duran was not in the negotiations. His manager betrayed him because of greed. Leonard camp knew that that greedy old bastard wasn't going to reject $8 million dollars. It was all betrayal.

Expug wrote: ↑20 Aug 2025, 23:27 What’s the argument? Is it that Duran didn’t have enough time to train so there is no way he could win the fight?
Or, is it that Duran didn’t have enough time to train so he said , the hell with it and quit?
No matter what the circumstances were, two things are true. Duran was an all time great, and there is no excuse for quitting like that.

I agree with you. Quitting in boxing is great sin. The greatest sin of all. But, I can now see why he quit. It was all done for Leonard's advantage. Starting with his manager that sold and betrayed him big time.