Evander Holyfield (Lewis 2) vs Oleksandr Usyk (Dubois 2)

[Ambling Alp II]

Sure, if Holyfield fought all his fights in his prime like he did in the first Moorer fight, he would not be that impressive of a fighter.

How about the 2nd Moorer fight? That was a totally different Holyfield.
When you say it would be a competitive fight, if you are saying that it would have been competitive against Holyfield at his best then yeah, I have a major problem with that.
The 2nd Lewis fight? That is a totally different question. (By the way, Holyfield did look better in that fight than the first Lewis fight) Not sure which one that you meant. That would have been a competitive fight.

btw-for whatever reason, people are often way off as to when Holyfield's prime was. He was past his prime for the first Moorer fight and further past it when he fought Tyson and of course even further past it after that.

People never talk about his hw fights before he fought Douglas. Watch his fights against Tillis, Dokes, Thomas, etc. He was fantastic in those fights. And course he was a great fighter in the two Bowe fights.

[gilgamesh]

I've seen Holyfield's entire career. I know of what I speak my friend when it comes to Holyfield. Yes I think Usyk vs Holyfield is competitive at any time in their lives.

If they both fought when they were 25 years old it would be competitive, and I'd favor Holyfield

If they both fought when they were 28 years old it would be competitive, and I'd favor Holyfield

If they both fought when they were 30 years old it would be competitive and I'd favor Holyfield

Once they begin to hit their mid 30's it turns, and it gets competitive to the point of being Dead even or favoring Usyk more often than not.

Because of Usyk's lengthy stay in the Amateurs it took him a while to hit the same level as a Heavyweight fighter or even just Professional fighter in general, but he's most certainly there now.

[Cent0089]

it is funny how we can spink stats. We can ignore that Usyk has a ridiculously low amount of fights in his career. Which of course makes it much easier to be undefeated and fight at an older age because he has taken so little punishment.

Anyway, the sheer amount of title fights or title fights win doesn't mean much at all.
Usyk gets credit for a title fight when he fights somebody like Dubois. Holyfield-Bowe III was not even a title fight! Neither was the Mercer fight. Both of those were much more important fights in boxing history than Usyk-DuBois.

Mercer-Lewis was not a title fight. Ali-Frazier II was not a title fight. You could go on and on with this. Quality always trumps quantity.

No, they were not

[gilgamesh]

it is funny how we can spink stats. We can ignore that Usyk has a ridiculously low amount of fights in his career. Which of course makes it much easier to be undefeated and fight at an older age because he has taken so little punishment.

Anyway, the sheer amount of title fights or title fights win doesn't mean much at all.
Usyk gets credit for a title fight when he fights somebody like Dubois. Holyfield-Bowe III was not even a title fight! Neither was the Mercer fight. Both of those were much more important fights in boxing history than Usyk-DuBois.

Mercer-Lewis was not a title fight. Ali-Frazier II was not a title fight. You could go on and on with this. Quality always trumps quantity.

No, they were not

Whether Bowe-Holyfield 3 was "more important" than Usyk-Dubois or not is kinda an odd point to argue anyway considering Holyfield didn't even win that fight.

Mercer and Dubois would actually be a very fun matchup if they were in the same time I think. I'd probably favor Mercer due to his extra grittiness, but it'd be a fun fight for sure.

[Ambling Alp II]

Of course they were more important than Usyk-Dubois .

I just brought up the Bowe fight becto show how silly it is to compare WBS title fights to fights between great fighters that weren't for a title.
Holyfield-Bowe was a fight between two great fighters. Far superior to Usyk and certainly Dubois. Usyk-Dubois was just another paper title fight. Nobody will be talking about it 20 years from now.

We should also always have to look at how things would have been different if the other guy had won when thinking about how historically important a fight is
If Dubois would have won, everyone would have said Usyk was too old.
If Holyfield would have beat Bowe, he would be rated even higher. Maybe as high as #3.
If Mercer would have beaten Holyfield, he would be rated much higher than he is now.

would also like to think that the quality of the fights have to count for something.
Holyfield-Bowe III was the worst of the three fights. But it was still a very compelling fight between two great fighters.
Mercer-Holyfield was a very good fight.
Usyk-Dubois? Meh. a good fighter beat a guy not that good. Who cares. Happens all the time.

[Cent0089]

Mercer was coming from draw and close decisions over guys 99% of fans never heard of. Dubois was coming from three knockout wins over solid oponents. Much more important for boxing history my a"ss . How some history fans overrate past fighters and underrate current ones is sometimes pure madness

[gilgamesh]

Where Dubois goes from here will weigh heavily on how we look at those wins on Usyk's record ultimately. If he continues to be a formidable Heavyweight that most people can't beat for years to come you certainly can't just scoff at him as if he's a nothing opponent. His story is still being written.

[Cojimar 1946]

If Holyfield hadn't lost to Bowe to begin with people wouldn't even remember Bowe. So hard to see how that would be to Holyfields advantage. Dubois career is already arguably more memorable than Bowes outside the Holyfield trilogy.

[keithmoonhangover]

If Holyfield hadn't lost to Bowe to begin with people wouldn't even remember Bowe. So hard to see how that would be to Holyfields advantage. Dubois career is already arguably more memorable than Bowes outside the Holyfield trilogy.

Yeah, but the Holyfield trilogy happened and Bowe won two out of three against a first ballot hall of famer. Has DDD beat any of those?

[gilgamesh]

If Holyfield hadn't lost to Bowe to begin with people wouldn't even remember Bowe. So hard to see how that would be to Holyfields advantage. Dubois career is already arguably more memorable than Bowes outside the Holyfield trilogy.

Bowe had a lot of fights with other Good fighters as well. Holyfield is just the only great one he fought.

I'm sure as time went on Bowe probably regretted not taking a few more paydays before he called it quits on his career.

[Cojimar 1946]

If Holyfield hadn't lost to Bowe to begin with people wouldn't even remember Bowe. So hard to see how that would be to Holyfields advantage. Dubois career is already arguably more memorable than Bowes outside the Holyfield trilogy.

Yeah, but the Holyfield trilogy happened and Bowe won two out of three against a first ballot hall of famer. Has DDD beat any of those?

Joshua is absolutely getting in the HOF and Dubois took him out in spectacular fashion.

[keithmoonhangover]

If Holyfield hadn't lost to Bowe to begin with people wouldn't even remember Bowe. So hard to see how that would be to Holyfields advantage. Dubois career is already arguably more memorable than Bowes outside the Holyfield trilogy.

Yeah, but the Holyfield trilogy happened and Bowe won two out of three against a first ballot hall of famer. Has DDD beat any of those?

Joshua is absolutely getting in the HOF and Dubois took him out in spectacular fashion.

Please don't compare DDD beating an Anthony Joshua who'd been beaten three times, once by heavy stoppage, to Bowe beating and unbeaten Holyfield who was the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

[Cojimar 1946]

Yeah, but the Holyfield trilogy happened and Bowe won two out of three against a first ballot hall of famer. Has DDD beat any of those?

Joshua is absolutely getting in the HOF and Dubois took him out in spectacular fashion.

Please don't compare DDD beating an Anthony Joshua who'd been beaten three times, once by heavy stoppage, to Bowe beating and unbeaten Holyfield who was the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

You brought up the hof. I'm merely pointing out that Joshua will get in. But that win absolutely is more impressive than anything else Bowe accomplished in his entire career outside Holyfield which was my original argument.

I also fail to see how beating Holyfield and doing little else could possibly make Bowe great. McCall and Rahman beat Lewis and most don't consider either great. Same with Douglas who beat Tyson and Sanders and Brewster who beat Wlad.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sure hope Joshua doesn't ever make the HOF, but who knows.

You fail to see how Ridddick Bowe was great? Guess you have failed to see Bowe fight. Watch the Bowe-Holyfield fights. They were great fights. There has not been a heavyweight fight that good since.

Why is beating Holyfield a bigger deal for Bowe that Douglas beating Tyson and Brewster beating Klitschko?

Well Holyfield was better than Tyson and a lot better than Klitschko. So beating a prime Holyfield was kind of a big deal.
Bowe also beat Tubbs, Thomas, Coetzer, and Seldon before even getting a title shot. Not legends, but if he had those kind of wins nowadays modern fans would be going gaga.
Not mention that Douglas and Brewster had bad losses well. Bowe never lost to anyone but Holyfield.

[gilgamesh]

One important thing to consider about Bowe though is that he only ever lost to Holyfield.

It's a shame he didn't at least defend against Ray Mercer which was the plan prior to Mercer being upset by Jesse Ferguson. That would've boosted him some. It's a bigger shame he never fought Tyson, Lewis or Foreman.

I know his team didn't want Lewis. I get the feeling Tyson and Foreman didn't particularly want Bowe.

[Ambling Alp II]

Mercer was coming from draw and close decisions over guys 99% of fans never heard of. Dubois was coming from three knockout wins over solid oponents. Much more important for boxing history my a"ss . How some history fans overrate past fighters and underrate current ones is sometimes pure madness

Three solid opponents? The best one was frikkin Joshua.
As mentioned before Mercer was inconsistent. I will take inconsistent guy over a guy who has done nothing like Dubois. Quite a chin. Usyk has scored a grand total of three stoppages at hw and two were against Dubois.

Watch Mercer against Morrison, Holyfield and Lewis. Then come back and say Dubios was better.

[gilgamesh]

Bowe does have quite a few fringe contenders and former Titlists in his record also. Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tubbs, Bruce Seldon, Bert Cooper, Herbie Hide, Larry Donald.

Not great, but decent opposition.

[gilgamesh]

Mercer was coming from draw and close decisions over guys 99% of fans never heard of. Dubois was coming from three knockout wins over solid oponents. Much more important for boxing history my a"ss . How some history fans overrate past fighters and underrate current ones is sometimes pure madness

Three solid opponents? The best one was frikkin Joshua.
As mentioned before Mercer was inconsistent. I will take inconsistent guy over a guy who has done nothing like Dubois. Quite a chin. Usyk has scored a grand total of three stoppages at hw and two were against Dubois.

Watch Mercer against Morrison, Holyfield and Lewis. Then come back and say Dubios was better.

The best of Dubois and the best of Mercer aren't worlds apart honestly. Mercer's edge would be in toughness. He also probably has a better jab. Dubois is faster and I suspect hits a little harder.

[keithmoonhangover]

Joshua is absolutely getting in the HOF and Dubois took him out in spectacular fashion.

Please don't compare DDD beating an Anthony Joshua who'd been beaten three times, once by heavy stoppage, to Bowe beating and unbeaten Holyfield who was the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

You brought up the hof. I'm merely pointing out that Joshua will get in. But that win absolutely is more impressive than anything else Bowe accomplished in his entire career outside Holyfield which was my original argument.

I also fail to see how beating Holyfield and doing little else could possibly make Bowe great. McCall and Rahman beat Lewis and most don't consider either great. Same with Douglas who beat Tyson and Sanders and Brewster who beat Wlad.

AJ may well get into the IBHOF, but he's not a nailed on first balloter as with Holyfield.

I just need to know one thing. Why have you decided to ignore the Holyfield fights on Bowe's record?

[Cojimar 1946]

I don't but it seems like crazy logic to act like Bowe is some amazing win when he did so little outside beating Holyfield himself. I wouldn't rate it above Usyk beating Joshua or Breidis. Fury is arguable due to the Ngannou debacle but overall I would put Fury ahead of Bowe

[gilgamesh]

I don't but it seems like crazy logic to act like Bowe is some amazing win when he did so little outside beating Holyfield himself. I wouldn't rate it above Usyk beating Joshua or Breidis. Fury is arguable due to the Ngannou debacle but overall I would put Fury ahead of Bowe

Fury undoubtedly had a better career than Bowe. Bowe certainly always looked like the better fighter to me though, but of course there's not enough of Bowe at the Championship level to prove that definitively.

[keithmoonhangover]

I don't but it seems like crazy logic to act like Bowe is some amazing win when he did so little outside beating Holyfield himself. I wouldn't rate it above Usyk beating Joshua or Breidis. Fury is arguable due to the Ngannou debacle but overall I would put Fury ahead of Bowe

[Cent0089]

I don't but it seems like crazy logic to act like Bowe is some amazing win when he did so little outside beating Holyfield himself. I wouldn't rate it above Usyk beating Joshua or Breidis. Fury is arguable due to the Ngannou debacle but overall I would put Fury ahead of Bowe

Yeah, some folks here on boxrec overrate past fighters and underrate current ones

[gilgamesh]

I don't but it seems like crazy logic to act like Bowe is some amazing win when he did so little outside beating Holyfield himself. I wouldn't rate it above Usyk beating Joshua or Breidis. Fury is arguable due to the Ngannou debacle but overall I would put Fury ahead of Bowe

Yeah, some folks here on boxrec overrate past fighters and underrate current ones

And vice versa

[Cent0089]

I don't but it seems like crazy logic to act like Bowe is some amazing win when he did so little outside beating Holyfield himself. I wouldn't rate it above Usyk beating Joshua or Breidis. Fury is arguable due to the Ngannou debacle but overall I would put Fury ahead of Bowe

Yeah, some folks here on boxrec overrate past fighters and underrate current ones

And vice versa

Hmmm didnt notice that. Maybe i am wrong