BoxRec

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:16

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:04

CaptainSpacerod wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 00:37
In the case of Breazale I was comparing the way Wilder dealt with him to how AJ dealt with him and with Stiverne the way Wilder maybe learnt from their first fight and dare I say it improved

Rather than dismissing Wilder out of hand is it not fairer to say that we don’t really know how good he was. He dealt with everyone spectacularly before two brutal defeats against the lineal champ Fury who was widely regarded as the clear number one in the division back then.

Who do you think would’ve beaten peak Wilder ?

Dealing with cans spectacularly is not impressive. He struggled with Ortiz who was the only competent opponent he faced. Peak Wilder would've lost to Joshua, Parker, Zhang, Povetkin, possibly Whyte and Chisora, maybe Ruiz, Dubois, Usyk of course, possibly Pulev, there's also a number of other guys ranked in the top 15 I'd favour in a matchup against him too.

Comparing the way different guys beat different guys is silly because styles make fights.

But you can't state that as fact. Like all fictional match ups, it's all opinion.

Agreed. That's why we have to go on what the boxers have factually done. So when we look at Wilder, he has done less than all those guys I mentioned.

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:04 Dealing with cans spectacularly is not impressive. He struggled with Ortiz who was the only competent opponent he faced. Peak Wilder would've lost to Joshua, Parker, Zhang, Povetkin, possibly Whyte and Chisora, maybe Ruiz, Dubois, Usyk of course, possibly Pulev, there's also a number of other guys ranked in the top 15 I'd favour in a matchup against him too.

Comparing the way different guys beat different guys is silly because styles make fights.

Fair comment.

I’ve put up a decent fight but I’m falling way behind on the scorecards here so I’m gonna ask my corner to pull me out

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:23

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:16

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:04

Dealing with cans spectacularly is not impressive. He struggled with Ortiz who was the only competent opponent he faced. Peak Wilder would've lost to Joshua, Parker, Zhang, Povetkin, possibly Whyte and Chisora, maybe Ruiz, Dubois, Usyk of course, possibly Pulev, there's also a number of other guys ranked in the top 15 I'd favour in a matchup against him too.

Comparing the way different guys beat different guys is silly because styles make fights.

But you can't state that as fact. Like all fictional match ups, it's all opinion.

Agreed. That's why we have to go on what the boxers have factually done. So when we look at Wilder, he has done less than all those guys I mentioned.

I'd say the punches he landed against Fury in fights 1 and 3 would have done for all those guys.

Fury is a very good fighter, no doubt about that, but I couldn't see him beating:

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Evander Holyfield
Prime Mike Tyson
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime George Foreman
Prime Muhammad Ali

Just a step or two behind those guys. Still a very good talent though.

I would have liked to see Haye vs Fury.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:41

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:23

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:16
But you can't state that as fact. Like all fictional match ups, it's all opinion.

Agreed. That's why we have to go on what the boxers have factually done. So when we look at Wilder, he has done less than all those guys I mentioned.

I'd say the punches he landed against Fury in fights 1 and 3 would have done for all those guys.

Maybe, but quite likely he gets annihilated early by Dubois, how many big punchers did Wilder beat?

10 year anniversary of the dethrnibg of Wlad today, too. Ring magazine have shared the video of him rapping in his hotel the night before. The contrast in shape is remarkable. He'd have been a nightmare for anyone that night.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:47

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:41

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:23

Agreed. That's why we have to go on what the boxers have factually done. So when we look at Wilder, he has done less than all those guys I mentioned.

I'd say the punches he landed against Fury in fights 1 and 3 would have done for all those guys.

Maybe, but quite likely he gets annihilated early by Dubois, how many big punchers did Wilder beat?

God knows. Dubois would be interesting. A great match up.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:48

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:47

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:41
I'd say the punches he landed against Fury in fights 1 and 3 would have done for all those guys.

Maybe, but quite likely he gets annihilated early by Dubois, how many big punchers did Wilder beat?

God knows. Dubois would be interesting. A great match up.

I'd have to favour Dubois, he's better technically, and has serious power - if it went long, I'd probably give Wilder a good chance, Dubois doesn't seem to have great stamina, and mentally seems to fall apart if he cannot get to his opponent's early.

You'd have to think though that Dubois lands early and finishes Wilder off pretty quickly. Wilder despite being a massive fanny, has never shown any quit, but if Fury can hurt him, then Dubois wipes him out, Fury has never really been much of a puncher.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:47 10 year anniversary of the dethrnibg of Wlad today, too. Ring magazine have shared the video of him rapping in his hotel the night before. The contrast in shape is remarkable. He'd have been a nightmare for anyone that night.

It's a good job he could fight, he definitely wasn't destined for greatness as a rapper.

I agree that a properly in shape and motivated Fury is a handful for most fighters, he was a very good mover for a big man, and has a good boxing brain, but I think all the top guys figure him out. Foreman I think would have wiped the floor with him, but then to be fair, Foreman wiped the floor with most people. His destruction of both Frazier and Norton, who were both exceptional fighters, and both tough tough men, is terrifying. Frazier looked like a child in that fight.

Foreman's power was truly frightening, he looked like he was moving in slow motion, but somehow, his punches always seemed to find a target. Even Ali said that George was much better in real life than he looked on tape. I read an interview with Ali about the rope a dope, and he said he realised early on, that Foreman was far too good at cutting off the ring, for Ali to shuck and jive and win, so he had to adjust his tactics and take a huge risk.

Frazier is another who I think is greatly flattered, mainly due to his matchup with Ali. Ali always struggled with smaller fighters, and Frazier's style coupled with Ali lacking the firepower to keep him at bay, meant that for two out of three fights, he had nightmares. Frazier only faced one really good big puncher, he never faced Lyle or Shavers, who I think would probably have beaten him also.

If you've never seen it, check out Ali's first fight with Patterson. Ali was really struggling with Patterson's speed, even though Patterson was some way past his prime, he was giving Ali murders, and the fight, in my opinion was stopped far too early.

In a video posted on his social media, Fury was clearly in a buoyant mood, reminising on his win from 2015:

“Good morning, everybody. It’s been a decade today, 10 years later, a full decade. Since I dethroned the long-reigning heavyweight champion of the world, Wladimir Klitschko. 28th of November, 2015.

“On that night, I said, today, Tyson Fury goes down as a legend. That was before the fight. Never mind beating him, and going on to do exactly what I did. Come on! I’ve been celebrating that every day, Wladimir, for 10 years. Thank you, Wlad, for making me a multi-millionaire, a very successful and multi-time world champion. Get up there, you sucker! Ha Ha!,” said Fury.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 08:07

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:48

jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:47

Maybe, but quite likely he gets annihilated early by Dubois, how many big punchers did Wilder beat?

God knows. Dubois would be interesting. A great match up.

I'd have to favour Dubois, he's better technically, and has serious power - if it went long, I'd probably give Wilder a good chance, Dubois doesn't seem to have great stamina, and mentally seems to fall apart if he cannot get to his opponent's early.

You'd have to think though that Dubois lands early and finishes Wilder off pretty quickly. Wilder despite being a massive fanny, has never shown any quit, but if Fury can hurt him, then Dubois wipes him out, Fury has never really been much of a puncher.

Fury already turned down a fight with DDD.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:41

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:23

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:16
But you can't state that as fact. Like all fictional match ups, it's all opinion.

Agreed. That's why we have to go on what the boxers have factually done. So when we look at Wilder, he has done less than all those guys I mentioned.

I'd say the punches he landed against Fury in fights 1 and 3 would have done for all those guys.

Didn't manage to land them against Zhang or Parker. Even Stiverne went the distance with him. Glass jaw Spzilka went 9 rounds. Duhaupas went 11. Wilder wasn't knocking everyone out in 1 or 2 rounds. Many bang average boxers were going into late rounds with him. If they can avoid getting KO'd for a lot of the fight then I'm sure genuinely good boxers can avoid it for 12.

If he'd have beaten Usyk then maybe. But even so, he was still an excpetional fighter. He gave Usyk his toughest fights, faced adversity i the ring and outside of it, and came out on top.

I love talking about rating fighters but it all depends on your criteria. And after many decades debating my only real conclusion is that epople like a guy or don't and tend to create/invent a criteria that favours their guy.

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 10:30

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:41

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 06:23

Agreed. That's why we have to go on what the boxers have factually done. So when we look at Wilder, he has done less than all those guys I mentioned.

I'd say the punches he landed against Fury in fights 1 and 3 would have done for all those guys.

Didn't manage to land them against Zhang or Parker. Even Stiverne went the distance with him. Glass jaw Spzilka went 9 rounds. Duhaupas went 11. Wilder wasn't knocking everyone out in 1 or 2 rounds. Many bang average boxers were going into late rounds with him. If they can avoid getting KO'd for a lot of the fight then I'm sure genuinely good boxers can avoid it for 12.

Ali didn't land any on Berbick...

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:47 10 year anniversary of the dethrnibg of Wlad today, too. Ring magazine have shared the video of him rapping in his hotel the night before. The contrast in shape is remarkable. He'd have been a nightmare for anyone that night.

Can you post the video please, Mickey

big lennox wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:44 Fury is a very good fighter, no doubt about that, but I couldn't see him beating:

Prime Riddick Bowe
Prime Evander Holyfield
Prime Mike Tyson
Prime Lennox Lewis
Prime George Foreman
Prime Muhammad Ali

Just a step or two behind those guys. Still a very good talent though.

I would have liked to see Haye vs Fury.

Foreman :

Possibly the most overrated boxer of all time. He was that generations Frank Bruno just with a better chin. A big oaf who hit hard and that's it.

People really do view that generation with rose tinted glasses.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 11:10

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 10:30

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:41
I'd say the punches he landed against Fury in fights 1 and 3 would have done for all those guys.

Didn't manage to land them against Zhang or Parker. Even Stiverne went the distance with him. Glass jaw Spzilka went 9 rounds. Duhaupas went 11. Wilder wasn't knocking everyone out in 1 or 2 rounds. Many bang average boxers were going into late rounds with him. If they can avoid getting KO'd for a lot of the fight then I'm sure genuinely good boxers can avoid it for 12.

Ali didn't land any on Berbick...

Actually he did. Ali vs Berbick was a closeish fight. Ali definately had his movement's and won rounds

Taansend wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 12:34

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:47 10 year anniversary of the dethrnibg of Wlad today, too. Ring magazine have shared the video of him rapping in his hotel the night before. The contrast in shape is remarkable. He'd have been a nightmare for anyone that night.

Can you post the video please, Mickey

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 11:10

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 10:30

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:41
I'd say the punches he landed against Fury in fights 1 and 3 would have done for all those guys.

Didn't manage to land them against Zhang or Parker. Even Stiverne went the distance with him. Glass jaw Spzilka went 9 rounds. Duhaupas went 11. Wilder wasn't knocking everyone out in 1 or 2 rounds. Many bang average boxers were going into late rounds with him. If they can avoid getting KO'd for a lot of the fight then I'm sure genuinely good boxers can avoid it for 12.

Ali didn't land any on Berbick...

Completely irrelevant. You're the one saying that Wilder's hypothetical punches would knock others out. I'm saying that he gave it a go against others and was less successful. Ali not KO-ing Berbick only tells us that Ali didn't KO Berbick with the punches he threw in that fight. He gave it a go against better boxers and was more successful.

Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 13:49

Taansend wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 12:34

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 07:47 10 year anniversary of the dethrnibg of Wlad today, too. Ring magazine have shared the video of him rapping in his hotel the night before. The contrast in shape is remarkable. He'd have been a nightmare for anyone that night.

Can you post the video please, Mickey

That's not it. It was from Ring magazine and was Tyson and his brother Hughie in the hotel the night before.

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:01

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 11:10

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 10:30

Didn't manage to land them against Zhang or Parker. Even Stiverne went the distance with him. Glass jaw Spzilka went 9 rounds. Duhaupas went 11. Wilder wasn't knocking everyone out in 1 or 2 rounds. Many bang average boxers were going into late rounds with him. If they can avoid getting KO'd for a lot of the fight then I'm sure genuinely good boxers can avoid it for 12.

Ali didn't land any on Berbick...

Completely irrelevant. You're the one saying that Wilder's hypothetical punches would knock others out. I'm saying that he gave it a go against others and was less successful. Ali not KO-ing Berbick only tells us that Ali didn't KO Berbick with the punches he threw in that fight. He gave it a go against better boxers and was more successful.

Do you not think at one point in his career he could have beaten Berbick? That he was done by the time he fought him? That's my point. Wilder was completely done post Fury 3.

Top 10 all time? Nah. He's a hard bastard to beat - decent skills on a man that size would make a tough night for anyone. Usyk managed it twice, and whilst Tyson did have moments of success, I didn't feel there was any question of who was the better fighter in there.

Not that there's any shame in that, but winning 10/24 rounds against Usyk was probably his greatest achievement, and not dissimilar from what AJ achieved (I think I gave him 8/24)
Wilder was vastly overrated. Beating Wlad is a decent result, on paper - and we can talk about how awful they both were, and it might be a point to say that Fury made Wlad look awful.... But it looked to me like Wlad absolutely bottled it.

Like everyone else has said, if you have him in the top 10, it's got to be the weakest record in there.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:03

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:01

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 11:10
Ali didn't land any on Berbick...

Completely irrelevant. You're the one saying that Wilder's hypothetical punches would knock others out. I'm saying that he gave it a go against others and was less successful. Ali not KO-ing Berbick only tells us that Ali didn't KO Berbick with the punches he threw in that fight. He gave it a go against better boxers and was more successful.

Do you not think at one point in his career he could have beaten Berbick? That he was done by the time he fought him? That's my point. Wilder was completely done post Fury 3.

He faced Spzilka, Stiverne and Duhaupas before Fury. What makes you think he was ever something before Fury? For someone who thinks Joshua had no skills, you seem to think Wilder was amazing.

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:12

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:03

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:01

Completely irrelevant. You're the one saying that Wilder's hypothetical punches would knock others out. I'm saying that he gave it a go against others and was less successful. Ali not KO-ing Berbick only tells us that Ali didn't KO Berbick with the punches he threw in that fight. He gave it a go against better boxers and was more successful.

Do you not think at one point in his career he could have beaten Berbick? That he was done by the time he fought him? That's my point. Wilder was completely done post Fury 3.

He faced Spzilka, Stiverne and Duhaupas before Fury. What makes you think he was ever something before Fury? For someone who thinks Joshua had no skills, you seem to think Wilder was amazing.

I don't. I just think he must have something to win an Olympic medal and hold a version of the world title for years.

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:17

joshj909 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:12

mickey1975 wrote: ↑28 Nov 2025, 14:03
Do you not think at one point in his career he could have beaten Berbick? That he was done by the time he fought him? That's my point. Wilder was completely done post Fury 3.

He faced Spzilka, Stiverne and Duhaupas before Fury. What makes you think he was ever something before Fury? For someone who thinks Joshua had no skills, you seem to think Wilder was amazing.

I don't. I just think he must have something to win an Olympic medal and hold a version of the world title for years.

His Olympic and professional title defence opponents that he beat: Touilbini, Arjaoui, Stiverne, Molina, Duhaupas, Szpilka, Arreola, Washington, Stiverne 2, Ortiz, Breazeale and Ortiz 2. Is that actually impressive?

It's arguably less impressive than numerous other heavyweights that have picked up Olympic medals or have beaten better opponents than him. Just to pick two, Tony Yoka and Joe Joyce. He might have something but he never showed it in a win against an opponent that was proven to be any good.