BoxRec

Totybear wrote:

Grimm wrote:

The only retard here is you. You're really not worth replying to as you're brain is incapable of looking at any argument except your own... you really need to go back to school you fool!.
Also I notice you mentioning the naked Graham picture?... .. interesting as it was you who posted it on this site so you must have it on your PC!!! eh!!!..... ... I wonder why as its clear you know nothing about Herols boxing abilty????????........ .

Time for you to come out of the closet Grimm!!!...

You can't even put up an argument anymore, your whole post was off topic.

You have nothing to say, just go home.

You just got your ass kicked by Silkov in a fair argument Grimm and that is the best closing line you can come up with!

Leave alone the topics that you know nothing about. It's just a suggestion but you'll have a much better time of it. [/quote]


Yeah the kid never learns!.. 8) :P . his life must be pretty grimm!!!.... 8)

Totybear wrote:

Grimm wrote:

The only retard here is you. You're really not worth replying to as you're brain is incapable of looking at any argument except your own... you really need to go back to school you fool!.
Also I notice you mentioning the naked Graham picture?... .. interesting as it was you who posted it on this site so you must have it on your PC!!! eh!!!..... ... I wonder why as its clear you know nothing about Herols boxing abilty????????........ .

Time for you to come out of the closet Grimm!!!...

You can't even put up an argument anymore, your whole post was off topic.

You have nothing to say, just go home.

You just got your ass kicked by Silkov in a fair argument Grimm and that is the best closing line you can come up with!

Leave alone the topics that you know nothing about. It's just a suggestion but you'll have a much better time of it.

So because you agree with silkov I know nothing about the topic?

Just shut the hell up and learn how to quote.

Grimm wrote:

Totybear wrote:

Grimm wrote:

The only retard here is you. You're really not worth replying to as you're brain is incapable of looking at any argument except your own... you really need to go back to school you fool!.
Also I notice you mentioning the naked Graham picture?... .. interesting as it was you who posted it on this site so you must have it on your PC!!! eh!!!..... ... I wonder why as its clear you know nothing about Herols boxing abilty????????........ .

Time for you to come out of the closet Grimm!!!...

You can't even put up an argument anymore, your whole post was off topic.

You have nothing to say, just go home.

You just got your ass kicked by Silkov in a fair argument Grimm and that is the best closing line you can come up with!

Leave alone the topics that you know nothing about. It's just a suggestion but you'll have a much better time of it.

So because you agree with silkov I know nothing about the topic?

Just shut the hell up and learn how to quote.[/quote]




Err yes Grimm, that is the general agreement here, 8) ....you know nothing about the subject of this post!. But then when do you ever??... ...... it seems the less you know the more you think you know!.
As for the quotes.. . learn how to quote properly yourself mate!..... 8)

Didn't Alan Minter use Herol Graham as a sparring partner before the Hagler fight ?

Graham just didn't have the experience with top ranked fighters the way Leonard did, to last more than half a fight with Marvelous Marvin.

Seamus wrote:Didn't Alan Minter use Herol Graham as a sparring partner before the Hagler fight ?

Graham just didn't have the experience with top ranked fighters the way Leonard did, to last more than half a fight with Marvelous Marvin.

The Minter camp sacked him because Minter couldn't touch him!!

Before Graham left the Ingle camp he would have given anyone fits including Hagler. IMO he would certainly have handled Kalambay and McCallum. Sadly the Graham of 87 was nowhere near as good.

Seamus wrote:Didn't Alan Minter use Herol Graham as a sparring partner before the Hagler fight ?

Graham just didn't have the experience with top ranked fighters the way Leonard did, to last more than half a fight with Marvelous Marvin.

I don't agree with this... Graham went the distance and came close to beating Mike Mccullum who was probably a harder puncher than Hagler. I think Hagler in his prime would have beaten GRaham but it would have gone to points. Herol's stoppage defeats all came when he was past his best and slowing down.

silkov wrote:

Seamus wrote:Didn't Alan Minter use Herol Graham as a sparring partner before the Hagler fight ?

Graham just didn't have the experience with top ranked fighters the way Leonard did, to last more than half a fight with Marvelous Marvin.

I don't agree with this... Graham went the distance and came close to beating Mike Mccullum who was probably a harder puncher than Hagler. I think Hagler in his prime would have beaten GRaham but it would have gone to points. Herol's stoppage defeats all came when he was past his best and slowing down.

Hagler in his prime would have been heavily favoured to beat Graham, I`d agree

But wasn`t this supposed to be the 87version of Hagler

I'm just not following some of the arguments here. Hagler's loss to Leonard in 87 is proof that Hagler could be out boxed. Yet, Graham's loss to Sumbu Kalambay (a very underrated fighter, but definitely not in Leonard's class) the same year is dismissed as irrelevant.

I can understand why Hagler-Graham never happened. Maybe it would have been interesting, but when your last 3 fights were Mugabi-Hearns-Leonard it's just not going to generate enough attention.

Seamus wrote:I'm just not following some of the arguments here. Hagler's loss to Leonard in 87 is proof that Hagler could be out boxed. Yet, Graham's loss to Sumbu Kalambay (a very underrated fighter, but definitely not in Leonard's class) the same year is dismissed as irrelevant.

I can understand why Hagler-Graham never happened. Maybe it would have been interesting, but when your last 3 fights were Mugabi-Hearns-Leonard it's just not going to generate enough attention.

Graham was the number one contender for about two years!.

But Kalambay was a middleweight, Leonard wasn`t.

Felix Sturm is a million miles away from Oscar De La Hoya`s class, but when Oscar fought out of his weight class and into Sturms the gap was closed...a little too close for even De La Hoya

The whole post is about 1987 versions of these two talented fighters, some die-hard fans will argue till their blue in the face that Hagler was as good as he ever was in 1987, and ignore what is widely known, not least by Hagler himself back then.

Hagler only blew away Hearns, in a torrid affair, and Tommy was like it or not at his best under 154lb, he beat Duran on points, again Duran was undeniably at his best at lightweight. And he had a very close fight with Leonard, which he lost the verdict.

As said many, many times on this post, Herol Graham, McCallum and Kalambay were legit and more worthy and dangerous challengers than any of Haglers biggest opponents.

And in 1987 any could have beat him.

Let me get this straight, not only would the legendary Herol Graham beat Hagler in 1987, but Kalambay and McCallum would have as well?
Kalambay is a great middleweight? Better than Leonard and Hagler?
The same Kalambay who lost to the washed up Ayub Kalue in 1985, and got knocked out in the 1st round by Michael Nunn in 1989?

Sugar Ray easily would have beaten these guys as well as Hagler would have.

By the way, this topic has been going for some time yet no one has listed one good opponent that Herol Graham ever beat. Yet somehow he is going to beat Marvin Hagler.
That he supposedly outboxed Alan Minter in sparring is the best that anyone can come up with.

Hagler was just starting to slip when he fought Mugabi and Leonard, but he was far from shot. Mugabi fought the fight of his life and Hagler still stopped him.

I got a lot of Kalule fights recently.There's no way he was washed up for that fight with kalambay.It's the best performance i've seen from Kalule and was a great fight.The losses he had to McCallum and Moore were probably more because of weight problems than being shot.

Ambling Alp wrote:Let me get this straight, not only would the legendary Herol Graham beat Hagler in 1987, but Kalambay and McCallum would have as well?
Kalambay is a great middleweight? Better than Leonard and Hagler?
The same Kalambay who lost to the washed up Ayub Kalue in 1985, and got knocked out in the 1st round by Michael Nunn in 1989?

Sugar Ray easily would have beaten these guys as well as Hagler would have.

By the way, this topic has been going for some time yet no one has listed one good opponent that Herol Graham ever beat. Yet somehow he is going to beat Marvin Hagler.
That he supposedly outboxed Alan Minter in sparring is the best that anyone can come up with.

Hagler was just starting to slip when he fought Mugabi and Leonard, but he was far from shot. Mugabi fought the fight of his life and Hagler still stopped him.

AMEN.

Ambling Alp wrote:Let me get this straight, not only would the legendary Herol Graham beat Hagler in 1987, but Kalambay and McCallum would have as well?

By the way, this topic has been going for some time yet no one has listed one good opponent that Herol Graham ever beat. Yet somehow he is going to beat Marvin Hagler.
That he supposedly outboxed Alan Minter in sparring is the best that anyone can come up with.

Hagler was just starting to slip when he fought Mugabi and Leonard, but he was far from shot. Mugabi fought the fight of his life and Hagler still stopped him.

I know that quote wasn't directed directly at me but I personally never said that Graham would beat Hagler and I don't think the other 2 would either.

The point I tried to make earlier in this thread is that Graham was avoided by everyone at the time. He was the leading contender for a long time and was sacked as a sparring partner (apparently) by minter and eubanks because they could not hit him ...at all!!!

The main point i was trying to put across is this. If you had seen him before leaving Ingle he was a fantastic talent, truly amazing to watch he simply outclassed everyone put in front of him and altough he didn't get the opportunity at that time to fight any legends I am confident he would have aquited himself well. It really is a shame that he was, like so many others in the history of boxing, a talent that didn't realise it's true potential.

I know you (and Grim) only want to see facts but put it like this.. If you had seen Thomas Hearns score 28 wins on the turn with 27 stoppages then leave Manny Steward. Then imagine he joined Brendan Ingle's stable and Ingle told him "your relying on the right hand, your speed and your reach too much. What we want you to do is box by moving around your opponents and thow uppercuts as they come past you". You would be pretty pissed off to see him get hammered by Pipino Cuevas in his next fight knowing what could have been.

To see the talent Graham had you only have to look at his fights with Vinny Paz and Brewer when years and years past his best and already talking as if he had taken too many shots. He still gave them fits.

The bottom line is Graham was an amazing talent that went unrealised. Could he have beaten Hagler? I doubt it because he was an amazing talent that was. Would he have made a good fight of it? You can bet your life he would.

very tricky I think this fight would be a like Roberto Duran and haggler only haggler is facing a southpaw herol graham would annoy haggler and may even make him look silly at times
haggler by SD

Herol Graham managed to lose to every truly world class opponent he fought & he wouldn't have beaten Hagler, that's for sure.

Hagler had no speed left by '87 & that would have meant huge frustration for him as Graham pot shotted him & moved around swiftly, but Sir Baldilocks would have caught up with the Bomber eventually & flaked him out.

Graham was very good, but he was just short of being world class & that's the key here for me.