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Posted: 08 Sep 2005, 14:22
by BrocktonBlockbuster49
good point, but i was just making a joke with that comment because someone else said 'if there had been one more minute in round 7 of shavers-holmes, we wouldnt be talking about holmes right now."
it was more a follow up jk. but good point.
funny thing about marciano lastarza 1 is this: marciano won due to supplementary scoring system, but the judges had it a draw. so some people say the fight by todays rules would be a draw. however i say back to them marciano knocked lastarza down in the 4th, so by todays rules it would have been a 10-8 round and marciano wins on points.
yeah its funny about charles fight, cause by todays rules, marciano wins a technical decision.
back to louis, he did have problems with fast boxers, but he always found a way to get to them. i think ali would give joe a lot more problems than holmes, holmes didnt have the speed. joe louis also not only could hit like no other man, he could box and had just as powerful jab as holmes. joe would box against holmes until he found the opening and would take advantage of it nd finish holmes off.
holmes got hurt many times in his career, but i think if he gets in trouble against joe louis, joe would finish him off.
Posted: 08 Sep 2005, 14:30
by silkov
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:by now way am i underatinng holmes, i rate him 5th all time.
holmes was an all time great. but i defintely dont think he should be rated over joe louis.
and holmes did not duck greg page,mike dokes, pinklon thomas, etc but i would have rather seen him defend against those guys.
if one of the judges scorecards changed by one point in the holmes norton fight, we wuldnt be talking about holmes right now
You could also say that if Billy Conn hadn't got cocky and tried to ko Louis in their first fight we'd be looking at Louis in a very different way as well.
Things like that are all part of boxing. The ability to pull a close fight out of the bag is what distinguishes a champion from a contender and Holmes was a champion who had the ability to find that little bit extra.
Actually I've always thought Holmes beat Norton clearly and didn't need the last round... Holmes more or less dominated the first 8 or 10 rounds of the bout.
Posted: 08 Sep 2005, 14:33
by silkov
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:good point, but i was just making a joke with that comment because someone else said 'if there had been one more minute in round 7 of shavers-holmes, we wouldnt be talking about holmes right now."
it was more a follow up jk. but good point.
funny thing about marciano lastarza 1 is this: marciano won due to supplementary scoring system, but the judges had it a draw. so some people say the fight by todays rules would be a draw. however i say back to them marciano knocked lastarza down in the 4th, so by todays rules it would have been a 10-8 round and marciano wins on points.
yeah its funny about charles fight, cause by todays rules, marciano wins a technical decision.
back to louis, he did have problems with fast boxers, but he always found a way to get to them. i think ali would give joe a lot more problems than holmes, holmes didnt have the speed. joe louis also not only could hit like no other man, he could box and had just as powerful jab as holmes. joe would box against holmes until he found the opening and would take advantage of it nd finish holmes off.
holmes got hurt many times in his career, but i think if he gets in trouble against joe louis, joe would finish him off.
Holmes got hurt a few times against hellacious punchers. The punches Holmes recovered from would have koed Louis in my opinion... Holmes had a very good chin, ...much better than Louis.
Posted: 08 Sep 2005, 14:45
by BrocktonBlockbuster49
i agree, holmes chin was better than joe louis' but the fact is joe louis wont be tkaing big punches when he faces holmes cause holmes isnt a KO puncher. if he was, it would be a different story. joe louis was so gifted all around, hes the only heavyweight i can htink of thats a great boxer and has incredible Ko power.
louis will wait for the opening and explode on holmes and holmes will not be able to take joe louis' punches IMO. i mean almost no one can.
Posted: 08 Sep 2005, 14:55
by silkov
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i agree, holmes chin was better than joe louis' but the fact is joe louis wont be tkaing big punches when he faces holmes cause holmes isnt a KO puncher. if he was, it would be a different story. joe louis was so gifted all around, hes the only heavyweight i can htink of thats a great boxer and has incredible Ko power.
louis will wait for the opening and explode on holmes and holmes will not be able to take joe louis' punches IMO. i mean almost no one can.
But Holmes wouldn't just be standing there to take Louis punches he'd be moving around and shooting out the jab. Louis was limited in his mobilty... he shuffled forward mostly in stright lines... he always had trouble with movers and Holmes would have been better than any of the boxers Louis had faced. Even if Louis caught Holmes and hurt him I'm sure he'd recover... if he could take Shavers bombs then he'd take Louis.
Also you have to give Holmes the chance to hurt Louis too...
Posted: 08 Sep 2005, 16:25
by BoxBuzz
silkov wrote:BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:if he could take Shavers bombs then he'd take Louis.
...
This is giving way way too much credit to "the bomb" and not enough credit to "the bomber" in this case. Louis was far more accurate, would land more often, and would be utilizing a completely different operating system than the Acorn. One thing poor Ernie seemed to have a problem with was closing the show. This was not an area of deficit for "The Bomber"
I'm not attempting to dismantle your entire construct but that beam is weak enough to allow the whole roof to cave in on your theory.
I'd run this one through your Univac one more time. Just for good measure.
But thats just me.
Posted: 08 Sep 2005, 16:29
by Grimm
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:well IMO not having ali and louis in the top 2 is pathetic.
really, u can rate the 3-10 guys anywhere u want, but u cant have a good arguement of not rating louis or ali in the top 2.
and holmes didnt have the most power out of ali and johnson. i thought ali had more power than holmes. ali knocked out and stopped much much better competion.
holmes competetion wasnt that strong. the only case u have is he defended 21 times but id rather him defend ten times against top contenders than 21 times with a fair share of bums. and holmes had a lot of trouble in defenses with non great heavyweights. all those guys like weaver, witherspoon, bonecrusher, williams,berbick, they all gave him trouble and were not top 40 heavyweights of all time.
holmes defintely would not have kayoed louis. i see joe knocking him out. renaldo snipes nearly knocked out holmes, and holems was vunerable to big right hands and joe louis had probably the greatest right hand of all time. when louis hit holmes with it, holmes would go down. and then joe would flurry with the hardest combos holmes has ever been hit with and louis would ifnish him off.
past his prime or not, tyson showed u can knock out holmes, cause after holmes lost to tyson he was never stopped and managed to almost win a world title and tyson still knocked him out cold.
holmes also never even unified the title???? i mean come on. unify the goddamm title, instead of fighting lorzenzo zano and scott le deux.
Louis knocking Holmes out???
Hmm.......kinda makes me think, extremely hard hands against extremely hard chin, well I never really thought of that one.
Posted: 09 Sep 2005, 06:03
by silkov
Grimm wrote:BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:well IMO not having ali and louis in the top 2 is pathetic.
really, u can rate the 3-10 guys anywhere u want, but u cant have a good arguement of not rating louis or ali in the top 2.
and holmes didnt have the most power out of ali and johnson. i thought ali had more power than holmes. ali knocked out and stopped much much better competion.
holmes competetion wasnt that strong. the only case u have is he defended 21 times but id rather him defend ten times against top contenders than 21 times with a fair share of bums. and holmes had a lot of trouble in defenses with non great heavyweights. all those guys like weaver, witherspoon, bonecrusher, williams,berbick, they all gave him trouble and were not top 40 heavyweights of all time.
holmes defintely would not have kayoed louis. i see joe knocking him out. renaldo snipes nearly knocked out holmes, and holems was vunerable to big right hands and joe louis had probably the greatest right hand of all time. when louis hit holmes with it, holmes would go down. and then joe would flurry with the hardest combos holmes has ever been hit with and louis would ifnish him off.
past his prime or not, tyson showed u can knock out holmes, cause after holmes lost to tyson he was never stopped and managed to almost win a world title and tyson still knocked him out cold.
holmes also never even unified the title???? i mean come on. unify the goddamm title, instead of fighting lorzenzo zano and scott le deux.
Louis knocking Holmes out???
Hmm.......kinda makes me think, extremely hard hands against extremely hard chin, well I never really thought of that one.
I think he'd be too busy trying to avoid Holmes jabs. If either was to score a ko I think it'd be Holmes.
Posted: 09 Sep 2005, 14:43
by BrocktonBlockbuster49
whta makes u think larry can take joes punches????? and what makes u think joe wont find the opening when a lot of holmes opponents did?????
Posted: 09 Sep 2005, 16:48
by Grimm
Wow what an interesting matchup Joe Louis vs. Larry Holmes.
Holmes had one of the best chins of all time and Louis was one of the hardest punchers of all time.
I would have to take Louis in this matchup though, anyone can be knocked out it just takes more to do it and I think Louis had what it takes to do it.