BoxRec

Posted: **20 Sep 2005, 14:09**

britpack wrote:trinidad and dela hoya avoided tszyu (check the record book to see how they craftily went through the 140 division without many fights) but they are rated higher than him. you must be from the circus

I question how much do you know about boxing? How Tito avoided tszyu if tszyu first fight was in 1992 and his first title fight was in 1998 and Tito’s first title fight at welterweight in 1993. So I ask how did he avoided tszyu. Nobody knew about tszyu until 1998.

Posted: **20 Sep 2005, 14:23**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:1. sugar ray robinson
2. Henry Armtstrong
3. joe louis
4. Sam Langford
5. muhammad ali
6. harry greb
7. Ezzard Charles
8. willie pep
9. roberto duran
10. Joe Gans
11. Sugar Ray Leonard
12. sandy saddler
13. Joe Walcott "barbadoes"
14. Archie Moore
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Benny Leonard
17. Barney Ross
18. Rocky Marciano
19. Bob fitzimmons
20. Julio Cesar Chavez
21. Mickey Walker
22. Jack Dempsey
23. Marvin Hagler
24. Salvado Sanchez
25. Roy Jones jr
26. Alexis Arguello
27. Jack Johnson
28. Carlos Monzon
29. Micheal Spinks
30. Larry Holmes
31. Pernell Whitaker
32. Terry Mcgovern
32. Gene Tunney
34. Wilfredo Gomez
35. Emile Griffith
36. Billy Conn
37. Lou Ambers
38. Kid Gavilan
39. Joe Frazier
40. Ed Jofre - the guy lost in his prime to harada twice and never beat a HOf, that is why i cant put him in my top 20 for those who are interested
41. Ruben Oliveres
42. Tony Canzoneri
43. Ike Williams
44. Jimmy Mclarnin
45. Stanley Ketchel
46. Bob Foster
47. Tommy Hearns
48. Floyd Mayweather jr **- still active
49. Evander Holyfield - only because he was the best cruiserweight of all time, cruiserweight counts
50. Carmen Basilio
51. Jose Napoles
52. Charley Burley
53. Tiger Flowers
54. Bernard Hopkins
55. George Foreman
56. Aaron Pryor
57. Jack Britton
58. Abe Atell
59. Tommy Loughran
60. Khasaoi Galaxy
61. Ricardo Lopez
62. Freddie Miller
63. Carlos Ortiz
64. Azumah Nelson
65. Dick Tiger
66. Carlos Zarate
67. Ted Kid Lewis
68. Mike Tyson
69. Fighting Harada
70. Sonny liston
71. Philadelphia Jack O brien
72 James Toney
73 Eusubio Pedroza
74 Mike Mccallum
75 Jersey Joe Walcott
76 Panama Al Brown
77 Marco Antonio barrera
78 eric morales
79 Gene Fullmer
80 Jake La Motta
81 Oscar De La hoya
82 Pancho villa
83 Kid Chocalate
84 Joe "old bones" Brown
85 Felix Trinidad
86 Sammy Serrano
87 Marcel Cerdan
88 Jeff Fenech
89 Lennox Lewis
90 Wilfredo Benitez
91 Vicente Saldivar
92 James Jeffries
93 Manuel Ortiz
94 Nino Benvenuti
95 Bob Montegmory
96 Beau Jack
97 Humberto Gonzalez
98 Flash Elorde
99 Kosta Tyzu
100 Harold Johnson

this list took me 3 hours to do, so i thought it over very hard. so take that into consideration before u bash some of my picks.

Aren't you supposed to be in college and on the wrestling team? I think your studies might be suffering with all the time & threads you post one here. Go back to class and get your grades up.
And get yourself a social life - take a gal to a dance or sumpin' and leave us to our own demise.

Posted: **20 Sep 2005, 15:20**

wlvrne wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:1. sugar ray robinson
2. Henry Armtstrong
3. joe louis
4. Sam Langford
5. muhammad ali
6. harry greb
7. Ezzard Charles
8. willie pep
9. roberto duran
10. Joe Gans
11. Sugar Ray Leonard
12. sandy saddler
13. Joe Walcott "barbadoes"
14. Archie Moore
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Benny Leonard
17. Barney Ross
18. Rocky Marciano
19. Bob fitzimmons
20. Julio Cesar Chavez
21. Mickey Walker
22. Jack Dempsey
23. Marvin Hagler
24. Salvado Sanchez
25. Roy Jones jr
26. Alexis Arguello
27. Jack Johnson
28. Carlos Monzon
29. Micheal Spinks
30. Larry Holmes
31. Pernell Whitaker
32. Terry Mcgovern
32. Gene Tunney
34. Wilfredo Gomez
35. Emile Griffith
36. Billy Conn
37. Lou Ambers
38. Kid Gavilan
39. Joe Frazier
40. Ed Jofre - the guy lost in his prime to harada twice and never beat a HOf, that is why i cant put him in my top 20 for those who are interested
41. Ruben Oliveres
42. Tony Canzoneri
43. Ike Williams
44. Jimmy Mclarnin
45. Stanley Ketchel
46. Bob Foster
47. Tommy Hearns
48. Floyd Mayweather jr **- still active
49. Evander Holyfield - only because he was the best cruiserweight of all time, cruiserweight counts
50. Carmen Basilio
51. Jose Napoles
52. Charley Burley
53. Tiger Flowers
54. Bernard Hopkins
55. George Foreman
56. Aaron Pryor
57. Jack Britton
58. Abe Atell
59. Tommy Loughran
60. Khasaoi Galaxy
61. Ricardo Lopez
62. Freddie Miller
63. Carlos Ortiz
64. Azumah Nelson
65. Dick Tiger
66. Carlos Zarate
67. Ted Kid Lewis
68. Mike Tyson
69. Fighting Harada
70. Sonny liston
71. Philadelphia Jack O brien
72 James Toney
73 Eusubio Pedroza
74 Mike Mccallum
75 Jersey Joe Walcott
76 Panama Al Brown
77 Marco Antonio barrera
78 eric morales
79 Gene Fullmer
80 Jake La Motta
81 Oscar De La hoya
82 Pancho villa
83 Kid Chocalate
84 Joe "old bones" Brown
85 Felix Trinidad
86 Sammy Serrano
87 Marcel Cerdan
88 Jeff Fenech
89 Lennox Lewis
90 Wilfredo Benitez
91 Vicente Saldivar
92 James Jeffries
93 Manuel Ortiz
94 Nino Benvenuti
95 Bob Montegmory
96 Beau Jack
97 Humberto Gonzalez
98 Flash Elorde
99 Kosta Tyzu
100 Harold Johnson

this list took me 3 hours to do, so i thought it over very hard. so take that into consideration before u bash some of my picks.
Aren't you supposed to be in college and on the wrestling team? I think your studies might be suffering with all the time & threads you post one here. Go back to class and get your grades up.
And get yourself a social life - take a gal to a dance or sumpin' and leave us to our own demise.

Hehehehehe, wlrvne is a funny dude.

Posted: **20 Sep 2005, 15:37**

good one wlve

- wreslting doest start till early oct. 2, conditioning. as for grades, im not suffering.

- as for girls, i have a girlfriend. shes hott, and dont worry i do spend quality time with her :P

- i love boxing, i want to be remembered by the time im 80 as a great boxing historian or writer or expert. might as well start young, learn as much as u can.

- as for parties, i party on fri and sat. college parties are sick! 8)

Posted: **20 Sep 2005, 16:09**

"college parties are sick" - must be a newer term. Even my daughter who's close to your age has enough class not to use the newer terms around me. Save those descriptions for your buddies and bring your Thesaurus when you post here. And a "thesauraus" is not a book that's been extinct for a million years.

Last time I was "sick" at a party, I was puking Budweiser into a paper bag. My how times have changed.

Posted: **20 Sep 2005, 21:15**

britpack wrote:comments like a paper champion who beat novices and robbed his only proper test is an all time great make me laugh. go do your homeowork on the retard known as ricardo lopez. he is a big joke and a fraud. he wasnt even as good as junior jones or tom johnson in terms of pound for pound. honestly this guy foguht about 45 novices. read that again NOVICES. even in world title fights he fought ex thiaboxers (failed thaiboxers) and martial artists (karate kids who twisted punches) who had just taken up the sport. guys who had boxed for less than a year in world title fights! hahahahaha

in my opinion minimumwieght boxing should be BANNED. the competition level is a joke and anybody who knew anything would know that. it is a joke and a disgrace to the sport. so is anybody who thinks lopez is the real deal or even half decent. he is like calzaghe but on a much much worse level. the guys he foguht had no experience and cant even be compared to ashira. with opposition like that, your career is a joke. he fought one good guy and robbed him once (the draw with alvarez)and nevrgave him a rematch after a gift decsiion. he moved up and couldnt unfiy the light flyweights (realised they were actually good) and then he retired. if lopez was a decent boxer, he would have moved up many years before. he stayed on slim fast because liek all minimumweights HE IS A JOKE

DO YOUR HOMEWORK SON!

MINIMUMWEIGHTS ARE A JOKE!!!!

you sure are an angry motherfucker
maybe you should calm down man

Posted: **20 Sep 2005, 23:08**

britpack wrote:my revised list. still cant remeber number 7!

1 ali
2 louis
3 johnson
4 frazier
5 dempsey
6 remeber his face but the name is drawing a blank!
7 foreman
8 norton
9 marciano
10 holmes

you made me doubt norton, so ill have to watch all his fights again and all his peers before making sure he really was as good as i think he was. not sure now so he slips. i think he was that good coz look what he did to ali. what frazier couldnt and what foreman couldnt. and look where you put them. in any case i definitely think he is top ten material. i think he even won the last one. ali was beyond his prime by years but he was still great and norton showed alot of skills.

number 7 has become number 6, simply because i cant remeber his name! maybe i was thinking chalres but i cant be sure. ill have to watch it over and over again to make sure. im sure it was someone else i usually put there! give some names to me and it might come back

I'm glad you at least moved Norton below Foreman. After the way that Foreman destroyed Norton I thought it was kinda weird that you had Norton ahead of Foreman on the all-time list.

As for #6, I suppose it could be:

Gene Tunney
Mike Tyson
Sonny Liston
Evander Holyfield
Riddick Bowe
Jersey Joe Walcott
Max Schmeling
Lennox Lewis
Ezzard Charles
Jack Sharkey
Floyd Patterson
Max Baer
Jim Braddock (this is so rory won't throw a fit

)

A lot of these fighters I would rate above Norton so you should check some of their fights out especially Gene Tunney, Ezzard Charles and Sonny Liston. They would all wipe the floor with Norton IMO.

It is also possible (though highly unlikely) that you may be thinking of one of the all-time great amateur fighters Teofilo Stevenson. He never turned pro, and I doubt you are thinking of him, but you never know

I also tend to agree with you that Finito Lopez shouldn't be on a top 100 list. I don't think he was a complete bum though. Most of the guys he fought were bums, but he did get in the ring with a few good fighters. Kermin Guardia, Alex Sanchez, Rosendo Alvarez (even though it was a joke that Alvarez didn't win the first fight), and Rotanapol Sor Vorapin were all pretty good fighters IMO. I still agree with you that minimumweight fighters shouldn't be in the top 100, mainly because the talent pool there is so thin...you don't have to be a very good fighter at 105 to become champion.

Watch Ivan Calderon's career. If he stays at minimumweight he will blow Finito Lopez's 51-0-1 out of the water. I also happen to think that Calderon would defeat a prime Lopez. Calderon may be boring to watch, but man is he an excellent boxer.

Posted: **20 Sep 2005, 23:13**

i wouldnt be able to make a list liek this.

Posted: **22 Sep 2005, 18:55**

So britpack have you remember #7 yet?

Posted: **22 Sep 2005, 19:01**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:1. sugar ray robinson
2. Henry Armtstrong
3. joe louis
4. Sam Langford
5. muhammad ali
6. harry greb
7. Ezzard Charles
8. willie pep
9. roberto duran
10. Joe Gans
11. Sugar Ray Leonard
12. sandy saddler
13. Joe Walcott "barbadoes"
14. Archie Moore
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Benny Leonard
17. Barney Ross
18. Rocky Marciano
19. Bob fitzimmons
20. Julio Cesar Chavez
21. Mickey Walker
22. Jack Dempsey
23. Marvin Hagler
24. Salvado Sanchez
25. Roy Jones jr
26. Alexis Arguello
27. Jack Johnson
28. Carlos Monzon
29. Micheal Spinks
30. Larry Holmes
31. Pernell Whitaker
32. Terry Mcgovern
32. Gene Tunney
34. Wilfredo Gomez
35. Emile Griffith
36. Billy Conn
37. Lou Ambers
38. Kid Gavilan
39. Joe Frazier
40. Ed Jofre - the guy lost in his prime to harada twice and never beat a HOf, that is why i cant put him in my top 20 for those who are interested
41. Ruben Oliveres
42. Tony Canzoneri
43. Ike Williams
44. Jimmy Mclarnin
45. Stanley Ketchel
46. Bob Foster
47. Tommy Hearns
48. Floyd Mayweather jr **- still active
49. Evander Holyfield - only because he was the best cruiserweight of all time, cruiserweight counts
50. Carmen Basilio
51. Jose Napoles
52. Charley Burley
53. Tiger Flowers
54. Bernard Hopkins
55. George Foreman
56. Aaron Pryor
57. Jack Britton
58. Abe Atell
59. Tommy Loughran
60. Khasaoi Galaxy
61. Ricardo Lopez
62. Freddie Miller
63. Carlos Ortiz
64. Azumah Nelson
65. Dick Tiger
66. Carlos Zarate
67. Ted Kid Lewis
68. Mike Tyson
69. Fighting Harada
70. Sonny liston
71. Philadelphia Jack O brien
72 James Toney
73 Eusubio Pedroza
74 Mike Mccallum
75 Jersey Joe Walcott
76 Panama Al Brown
77 Marco Antonio barrera
78 eric morales
79 Gene Fullmer
80 Jake La Motta
81 Oscar De La hoya
82 Pancho villa
83 Kid Chocalate
84 Joe "old bones" Brown
85 Felix Trinidad
86 Sammy Serrano
87 Marcel Cerdan
88 Jeff Fenech
89 Lennox Lewis
90 Wilfredo Benitez
91 Vicente Saldivar
92 James Jeffries
93 Manuel Ortiz
94 Nino Benvenuti
95 Bob Montegmory
96 Beau Jack
97 Humberto Gonzalez
98 Flash Elorde
99 Kosta Tyzu
100 Harold Johnson

this list took me 3 hours to do, so i thought it over very hard. so take that into consideration before u bash some of my picks.

Overall a pretty good list. I thought I would put my 2 cents in and nit pick a little.
The guys that I certainly would have included that weren't are George Dixon, Dwight Qawi, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Harry Wills, and Johnny Kilbane.
Qawi especially may surprise some people, however if you have seen him fight at or near his prime you would probably agree. He fought in a very strong period for lightheavyweights (1970's and early 1980's) and beat some really good fighters, like Saad Muhammad, Jerry Martin, James Scott, and Mike Rossman. He gave Michael Spinks a very tough fight. He also won the cruiserweight title, and gave Holyfield a great fight. His reputation may have been hurt when he went up to heavyweight and wasn't nearly as successful.

Since I think these 6 should be added, I will tell you 6 that would have to be dropped. I would drop Serrano, Fenech,Pedrosa, Tyzu, Elorde, and probably Villa. All were very good, but you can only have 100.

I think that Harold Johnson, Wilfred Benitez, Nino Benevenuti, George Foreman, and Gene Fullmer should be higher.

Barbadoes Joe Walcott,Mayweather, Galaxy,Azumah Nelson, and Miller should be lower.

Eder Jofre did beat Vincente Saldivar, who is in the International Hall of Fame. Both were past their prime, so it's debatable how big a win that was.

Overall, though a good list. I have done these before and know how tough it is comparing different weight classes and different eras. There are so many borderline calls. Years ago, I used to just assume that Jimmy Carter was one of the top 100, but I can now think atleast 125 guys I would put ahead of him.
No matter what you do, people will say what about this guy or that guy, but thats part of the fun.

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 11:22**

this is a hard one as the 100 list are from all different weights so you cant really say who is number 1 and who is 100. i agree that brockton really knows his boxing history and would be very interested in seeing his top 10 in all weights.
i have to disagree with his opinion on mike tyson though as not being in his top ten of heavyweight. tyson, in his day would of (in my opinion) beat any heavyweight past or present. had he stayed focused and not mentally lost the plot could of easily passed rockys record of 49.0 and became undisputed heavyweight champion of all times.

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 11:27**

michael spinks 29... mike tyson 68. how does that work???? didnt mike tyson knock spinks out in 92 seconds mr brockton???

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 11:33**

rodders wrote:...had he stayed focused and not mentally lost the plot could of easily passed rockys record of 49.0 and became undisputed heavyweight champion of all times.

Staying focused, and mental toughness are all part of the equation. Being past your prime at 24 seems to preclude Tyson from being considered as the best HW of all time, at least by most posters on this board, as well as most boxing analysts. He was fun to watch, and could be a terror in the reing, but Douglas showed everyone how to beat him.

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 11:41**

tyson is and was mentally unstable but his orig boxing team knew how to deal with this. before the douglas fight he had tried to kill himself twice and this was the start of his downhill spiral into nothingness. the douglas fight showes this. he walked into everything douglas threw at him. but even round after round of constant punches knocked douglas to the canvas where he layed for 14 seconds.
tyson should never have been in that ring as he was well to unstable to be in the fight game any longer...
my opinion... hope it counts.

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 12:40**

rodders wrote:michael spinks 29... mike tyson 68. how does that work???? didnt mike tyson knock spinks out in 92 seconds mr brockton???

Spinks dominated a very good Ligthheavy division. When the dust had settled he came out on top. He also successfully moved up to heavyweight and became the first LH champion to win the title.

Tyson dominated his division too but the HW division that Tyson decimated IMO was not on a par with the LH division that Spinks commanded.

In P4P terms I'd rank Spinks above Tyson. I think most people would. I think Spinks achievements outweigh Tyson's. What's your take Rodders?

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 12:48**

By the way, BB, I like your list.

My observations are the usual Pep/Saddler debate... Which one should you rate higher??? You've got them close enough though and I think it's a personal decision when it comes down to it.

I think Rocky is a bit too high but you'd have disappointed me if you'd have done anythign else.

I think Hopkins is just a bit too high and so is RJJ. I don't think Roy really has the names on his record to place him so high. Great talent but not that high for me.

I think LaMotta achieved more than Fullmer and would have beaten him. LaMotta should be quite a few notches higher than gene IMO.

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 12:53**

i agree with what your saying, but as you said, they are 2 different weights. where spinks ruled his weight division tyson ruled his and when spinks decided on becoming an hw he got destroyed by a much better fighter. yes spinks achieved a lot but he wasnt a match for tyson. thats y i disagree with the 100 list. and spinks rated at 29 and tyson 68.. as the 92 second fight showed that spinks was clearly no match for mike tyson. that why i said its hard to judge a 100 top list at all different weights it should be better off at top 10 in weight divisions...

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 13:10**

Rodders

I look back and think that Spinks never really believed he could win. I think Tyson was too mobile for him and with Spinks' dodgy knees he would not have been able to keep away. Even if his knees had have been okay I still don't think he'd have won.

Spinks is one of my favourite fighters and I rate him in my top LH's but this is a fight he cannot win.

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 13:13**

The Spinks-Tyson fight is irrelavant. Spinks was a much better light heavyweight than heavyweight.
The lightheavyweight era that Spinks fought in had great competition. Even so, Spinks never lost at that weight.
When Tyson was the dominant heavyweight, his competition was much weaker. And of course he got beat badly when the competition got better.

You could argue that Tyson should be rated a little higher, but not much. Spinks really should be higher than #29 IMO.

Posted: **27 Sep 2005, 13:13**

Ezzard wrote:Rodders

I look back and think that Spinks never really believed he could win. I think Tyson was too mobile for him and with Spinks' dodgy knees he would not have been able to keep away. Even if his knees had have been okay I still don't think he'd have won.

Spinks is one of my favourite fighters and I rate him in my top LH's but this is a fight he cannot win.

Which makes sense. Of course, Spinks still rates higher in most peoples all time P4P ratings because as you noted, he accomplished more in his weight class than Tyson accomplished in his. This doesn't have anything to do with what happened when they fought, since Spinks had moved up two weight classes.

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