Marvin Hagler - the most overrated boxer of all time

[wolverine1]

I think too many fans make too much of the "fact" that Leonard was "out of the game" for 2-3years.

Does anyone know for a fact that Ray was out of shape, or out of training leading up to this super-fight? Or was Leonard like Hopkins, always in shape, ready for anything that might have come his way?

Leonard had a very long training camp for the Hagler fight it came to light after the fight.

After the Hagler fight it was also revealed that Leonard had had a number of full 12 round fights behind closed doors. These were officially sparring sessions, but with a few major differences. There were no headgaurds used, small gloves and the sparring partners were told to try there best to win over the full 12 rounds. They were basically REAL fights.

Two of the sparring were Quincy Taylor and Anthony Fletcher (who was a southpaw). I heard thet Taylor floored leonard during one of these 'fights'.

I "knew" it. No one can be that sharp after any type of long lay-off. And I still have Hagler winning by 2 rounds.

[Collins2000]

I think too many fans make too much of the "fact" that Leonard was "out of the game" for 2-3years.

Does anyone know for a fact that Ray was out of shape, or out of training leading up to this super-fight? Or was Leonard like Hopkins, always in shape, ready for anything that might have come his way?

Leonard had a very long training camp for the Hagler fight it came to light after the fight.

After the Hagler fight it was also revealed that Leonard had had a number of full 12 round fights behind closed doors. These were officially sparring sessions, but with a few major differences. There were no headgaurds used, small gloves and the sparring partners were told to try there best to win over the full 12 rounds. They were basically REAL fights.

Two of the sparring were Quincy Taylor and Anthony Fletcher (who was a southpaw). I heard thet Taylor floored leonard during one of these 'fights'.

I "knew" it. No one can be that sharp after any type of long lay-off. And I still have Hagler winning by 2 rounds.

Wolfy,
Of course, he trained hard. He didn't just walk back in after a long layoff. Like him or loath him as a person, as a boxer he was very intelligent.

KOJOE,
Are you seriously expecting me to swallow, hook, line and sinker the idea that Leonard while training for a fight with the middleweight champion was allowed to fight "real fights" with a lightweight ie Fletcher? Fek man, Leonard would have KO'd him in one round every time in any sort of real fight. I think you need to explain a bit more. I read he engaged in some serious sparring sessions which some observers (who are far and few between) likened to real fights ie 12 rounds of hard sparring with the same fighter but I think your tale of them being almost real fights and that one of the dudes was a lightweight is a bit on the nose.

[wolverine1]

Collins, I made my comment because fans make note that Leonard was "inactive" for 2 or 3 years before fighting Hagler. My contention was, he wasn't as "inactive" as people were lead to believe.

I respect Leonard as a boxer. I think he was a little to "show-boat" someitmes, but so was ALi. I didn't like that about Ali, either.

Hagler was always business.

[Cojimar 1945]

Does anyone know why boxrec lists Monzon as 6'2? I thought he was 5'11 1/2.

[Syntax Error]

How can anybody rate Tommy Hearns above Hagler at middleweight, when he had only a handful of fights at the weight & was destroyed by an ageing & slowing Hagler, when Tommy himself, was in his prime?

[KOJOE90]

KOJOE,
Are you seriously expecting me to swallow, hook, line and sinker the idea that Leonard while training for a fight with the middleweight champion was allowed to fight "real fights" with a lightweight ie Fletcher? Fek man, Leonard would have KO'd him in one round every time in any sort of real fight. I think you need to explain a bit more. I read he engaged in some serious sparring sessions which some observers (who are far and few between) likened to real fights ie 12 rounds of hard sparring with the same fighter but I think your tale of them being almost real fights and that one of the dudes was a lightweight is a bit on the nose.

I'm only passing on what I have read and been told by people whose boxing knowledge I highly respect.

Firstly, Fletcher & Taylor were both sparring partners for Leonard for the Hagler fight to the best of my knowledge. But as I wasn't there (as I assume you were not either) neither of us know which sparring partners performed which function in the camp.

Also you state yourself that Leonard took part in some 12 round hard sparring with the same fighter (that were likened to REAL fights). There is a very fine line between hard sparring and a 'real' fight if the sparring partner is trying his best to win. More so if there are no helmets and they were both wearing small gloves.

The punches would still hurt, just because this happened in a 'closed' gym and not infront ofjudges and an audience does not lessen the intencity of the combat.

[silkov]

KOJOE,
Are you seriously expecting me to swallow, hook, line and sinker the idea that Leonard while training for a fight with the middleweight champion was allowed to fight "real fights" with a lightweight ie Fletcher? Fek man, Leonard would have KO'd him in one round every time in any sort of real fight. I think you need to explain a bit more. I read he engaged in some serious sparring sessions which some observers (who are far and few between) likened to real fights ie 12 rounds of hard sparring with the same fighter but I think your tale of them being almost real fights and that one of the dudes was a lightweight is a bit on the nose.

I'm only passing on what I have read and been told by people whose boxing knowledge I highly respect.

Firstly, Fletcher & Taylor were both sparring partners for Leonard for the Hagler fight to the best of my knowledge. But as I wasn't there (as I assume you were not either) neither of us know which sparring partners performed which function in the camp.

Also you state yourself that Leonard took part in some 12 round hard sparring with the same fighter (that were likened to REAL fights). There is a very fine line between hard sparring and a 'real' fight if the sparring partner is trying his best to win. More so if there are no helmets and they were both wearing small gloves.

The punches would still hurt, just because this happened in a 'closed' gym and not infront ofjudges and an audience does not lessen the intencity of the combat.

I've heard about these 'fights' before myself and think they were a very canny move by Leonard and the reason why he showed more or less no rust against Hagler despite having not 'fought' in over 3 years.
Leonard looked far more rusty in his later fights with Hearns and Lalonde...

[wolverine1]

And that's what adds to the "Leonard mystique". Does anyone for a minute actually believe that Leonard would challenge Hagler without doing some serious training & sparring beforehand? Leonard was good at self-promoting himself, too. So he adds a twist like this to hype the fight, and his reputation.

[silkov]

And that's what adds to the "Leonard mystique". Does anyone for a minute actually believe that Leonard would challenge Hagler without doing some serious training & sparring beforehand? Leonard was good at self-promoting himself, too. So he adds a twist like this to hype the fight, and his reputation.

Its not a twist to hype him its the truth, if anything the 'fights' that Leonard had take something away from his win over Hagler as he hadn't been as inactive as people belived. Leonard had the fights under strict rules that all pro fights are fought under over 12 rounds and with a referee... the only difference between these fights and 'normal' pro fights is that they did not count on the record and noone but a select few watched them. Leonard is reputed to have had at least 6 of these 'fights' I have heard.

[Autobarn]

this is what happens when you have a guy who doesn't look spectacular. he gets ripped for not looking awesome. maybe he should be given more credit for using a very practical style to grind down a generation of good middleweights. plus he beat a fine level of opposition on the way up, Seales, Briscoe, Hart, Monroe, Finnegan

Hagler was a great technician of deceptive skill. He never usually looked much in the early rounds but almost always wore his man down. Great in rematches, too - as with Hamsho, Obel, Antuofermo. One of the few switch hitters who really knew how to switch, he could really lure ppl onto that left hook when he slipped into the orthodox stance.

When Hagler found his range he ripped opponents to shreds.

[silkov]

this is what happens when you have a guy who doesn't look spectacular. he gets ripped for not looking awesome. maybe he should be given more credit for using a very practical style to grind down a generation of good middleweights. plus he beat a fine level of opposition on the way up, Seales, Briscoe, Hart, Monroe, Finnegan

Hagler was a great technician of deceptive skill. He never usually looked much in the early rounds but almost always wore his man down. Great in rematches, too - as with Hamsho, Obel, Antuofermo. One of the few switch hitters who really knew how to switch, he could really lure ppl onto that left hook when he slipped into the orthodox stance.

When Hagler found his range he ripped opponents to shreds.

He looked pretty spectacular against Minter, Oblemas, Lee, Hamsho, Sibson, Scypion and Hearns....

[Autobarn]

this is what happens when you have a guy who doesn't look spectacular. he gets ripped for not looking awesome. maybe he should be given more credit for using a very practical style to grind down a generation of good middleweights. plus he beat a fine level of opposition on the way up, Seales, Briscoe, Hart, Monroe, Finnegan

Hagler was a great technician of deceptive skill. He never usually looked much in the early rounds but almost always wore his man down. Great in rematches, too - as with Hamsho, Obel, Antuofermo. One of the few switch hitters who really knew how to switch, he could really lure ppl onto that left hook when he slipped into the orthodox stance.

When Hagler found his range he ripped opponents to shreds.

He looked pretty spectacular against Minter, Oblemas, Lee, Hamsho, Sibson, Scypion and Hearns....

he looked spectacular when he finished them off. but he was a patient, methodical guy who was more concerned with winning that looking nce. you have a point, but if you look at Hamsho I, Roldan, Obel I and II before he found his timing, Antuofermo I, etc...

[silkov]

this is what happens when you have a guy who doesn't look spectacular. he gets ripped for not looking awesome. maybe he should be given more credit for using a very practical style to grind down a generation of good middleweights. plus he beat a fine level of opposition on the way up, Seales, Briscoe, Hart, Monroe, Finnegan

Hagler was a great technician of deceptive skill. He never usually looked much in the early rounds but almost always wore his man down. Great in rematches, too - as with Hamsho, Obel, Antuofermo. One of the few switch hitters who really knew how to switch, he could really lure ppl onto that left hook when he slipped into the orthodox stance.

When Hagler found his range he ripped opponents to shreds.

He looked pretty spectacular against Minter, Oblemas, Lee, Hamsho, Sibson, Scypion and Hearns....

he looked spectacular when he finished them off. but he was a patient, methodical guy who was more concerned with winning that looking nce. you have a point, but if you look at Hamsho I, Roldan, Obel I and II before he found his timing, Antuofermo I, etc...

Yes thats true, I don't think Hagler liked being roughed up in close... he liked to fight at a distance using his reach to cut up and break down his opponent and then he would move in when it was time for the kill. He was one of the best finishers I've seen...

[Autobarn]

He looked pretty spectacular against Minter, Oblemas, Lee, Hamsho, Sibson, Scypion and Hearns....

he looked spectacular when he finished them off. but he was a patient, methodical guy who was more concerned with winning that looking nce. you have a point, but if you look at Hamsho I, Roldan, Obel I and II before he found his timing, Antuofermo I, etc...

Yes thats true, I don't think Hagler liked being roughed up in close... he liked to fight at a distance using his reach to cut up and break down his opponent and then he would move in when it was time for the kill. He was one of the best finishers I've seen...

when he went in for the kill, he looked like he was swinging bricks into thee opponents' faces! they reacted the same way, often...

Hagler used to cut around the eyebrows, i think he was cut vs Hamsho I and Antuofermo I if i remember correectly

[silkov]

he looked spectacular when he finished them off. but he was a patient, methodical guy who was more concerned with winning that looking nce. you have a point, but if you look at Hamsho I, Roldan, Obel I and II before he found his timing, Antuofermo I, etc...

Yes thats true, I don't think Hagler liked being roughed up in close... he liked to fight at a distance using his reach to cut up and break down his opponent and then he would move in when it was time for the kill. He was one of the best finishers I've seen...

when he went in for the kill, he looked like he was swinging bricks into thee opponents' faces! they reacted the same way, often...

Hagler used to cut around the eyebrows, i think he was cut vs Hamsho I and Antuofermo I if i remember correectly

Hagler was badly cut in the first Hamsho fight I can't remember if he was cut against Antuofermo. He did tend to mark up a bit around the eyes, I remember he had a swollen and cut eye against Duran... who was unmarked.
Duran was amazing, I can only remember him being cut about twice, against Hearns and Paul Thorn I think it was, and the Thorn cut was due to a butt I think...

[Collins2000]

KOJOE,
Are you seriously expecting me to swallow, hook, line and sinker the idea that Leonard while training for a fight with the middleweight champion was allowed to fight "real fights" with a lightweight ie Fletcher? Fek man, Leonard would have KO'd him in one round every time in any sort of real fight. I think you need to explain a bit more. I read he engaged in some serious sparring sessions which some observers (who are far and few between) likened to real fights ie 12 rounds of hard sparring with the same fighter but I think your tale of them being almost real fights and that one of the dudes was a lightweight is a bit on the nose.

I'm only passing on what I have read and been told by people whose boxing knowledge I highly respect.

Firstly, Fletcher & Taylor were both sparring partners for Leonard for the Hagler fight to the best of my knowledge. But as I wasn't there (as I assume you were not either) neither of us know which sparring partners performed which function in the camp.

Also you state yourself that Leonard took part in some 12 round hard sparring with the same fighter (that were likened to REAL fights). There is a very fine line between hard sparring and a 'real' fight if the sparring partner is trying his best to win. More so if there are no helmets and they were both wearing small gloves.

The punches would still hurt, just because this happened in a 'closed' gym and not infront ofjudges and an audience does not lessen the intencity of the combat.

I wasn't there. You weren't there. Was the person who told you there?

Or is it just hearsay?