BoxRec

Crease wrote:Bull I totally agree with you, Marciano was the greatest! (End of)

I am a very big Marciano fan, I'm not old enough to remember his era but my grandad is, and he got my interested in boxing, he laways spoke very highly of Joe Louis but he always wished he could've seen Ali vs Marciano, he said it would have been the greatest fight of all time, and I agree to this day.

From my boxing collection I've collected, Marciano vs
Louis,
Walcott (1 & 2)
Charles (1 &2 )
La Starza
Moore (His last ever fight)

From Ali I've got,
Frazier (1,2,3)
Foreman
Holmes 1

I've also got both Foreman v Frazier fights.

Before anyone decides to respond to this post I seriously suggest you read this article.... Especially the wig story.

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Aren ... irock.html.

Sorry boys I just can't see Marciano losing a fight, agianst Charles (2), rcoky's nose was hanging off and he doctor was gonna stop the fight but he let it continue and Charlie Goldman told Rocky "Your gonn ahave to knock him out or this ifht will be stoppred", Rocky went out and knocked Charles ot the floor...

So I'm a big mouth just because I don't think Marciano was the greatest???.... that says a lot about your knowledge of boxing......

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:rocky marciano was not the greatest HW of all time. no one is saying that.........



but he is most defintley top 10 and i personally think he is top 5

I can't argue that. I keep him out of the top 10, but perhaps that's as much of a stretch as putting him at #4 or so.

i dont see how u could keep him out of the top 10 if u base a list based on accomplishments


in terms of accomplishments rocky rates right up there with the best. he dominated his era, wiped out the division, did it all

He only made 6 defences against mediocre and fading opposition.... hardly wiping out a division!.

silkov wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote: I can't argue that. I keep him out of the top 10, but perhaps that's as much of a stretch as putting him at #4 or so.

i dont see how u could keep him out of the top 10 if u base a list based on accomplishments


in terms of accomplishments rocky rates right up there with the best. he dominated his era, wiped out the division, did it all

He only made 6 defences against mediocre and fading opposition.... hardly wiping out a division!.

archie moore, ezzard charles, jersey joe walcott mediocre???

you vastly underate roland lastarza, a very good defensive boxer.


- rocky defended his title against 3 hall of famers and 2 all time great heavies charles and walcott. he also gave rematches in close fights unlike other champions and he ducked no one.


- once marciano beat moore, he virtually had no one left to face since moore had beaten all of the top contenders. there were no big matches and rocky only liked to take big matches against name opponents or top contenders.


and to tell u the truth, if u take out all the guys that didnt deserve to get a shot at holmes title, than u are left with about 8 or 9 title defenses.


marciano was a swarmer, swarmers never last as long. frazier and dempsey were past there prime before 30.




so please let me ask u, how did he not wipe out the division?? he beat all top contenders # 1 or # 2 ranked contenders in his title defenses and beat 3 hall of famers and 2 all time great heavies.

ya i know the bla bla bla past there prime old men bullshit.

Decagon wrote:Holmes, Lewis, Louis, Johnson and Ali wiped out their respective divisions. Marciano didn't stay around long enough to do so. Six defenses, all against older fighters? Bullshit.

walcott and moore were still in there primes, walcott had just won the title 10 months ago for chrisakes. moore was 45-1 in his last 46 fights coming off wins over nino valdes, harold johnson, joey maxim. charles was only 32 and was still a very dangerous top contender who fought one of the best fights of his career in the 1st fight. the charles of the 1st marciano fight fought like the 51-52 charles, not the 54 charles. charles never displayed that kind of stamina or toughness before. charles showed up at 185lb, much lighter than he had been and it was evident he it was his last chance so he gave it his all and spilled out everything he had. charles was not in his prime, but marciano beat a damm good version of charles in that 1st fight.


lastarza and cockell were 26






- jack johnson wiped out his division??? o u mean the way he never fought sam langford, joe jeanette, or sam mcvey later on when they were much better fighters???




u mean the same holmes who never rematched spoon, norton, weaver??


the same holmes who did not take on greg page, michael dokes, pinklon thomas, gerrie coetzee???


the same holmes who never even unified the title??









u are such a hypocrite decagon. see how i can twist things around the way u do?

marciano simply gets pissed on because he didnt fight on past is prime

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

Decagon wrote:Holmes, Lewis, Louis, Johnson and Ali wiped out their respective divisions. Marciano didn't stay around long enough to do so. Six defenses, all against older fighters? Bullshit.

walcott and moore were still in there primes, walcott had just won the title 10 months ago for chrisakes. moore was 45-1 in his last 46 fights coming off wins over nino valdes, harold johnson, joey maxim. charles was only 32 and was still a very dangerous top contender who fought one of the best fights of his career in the 1st fight. the charles of the 1st marciano fight fought like the 51-52 charles, not the 54 charles. charles never displayed that kind of stamina or toughness before. charles showed up at 185lb, much lighter than he had been and it was evident he it was his last chance so he gave it his all and spilled out everything he had. charles was not in his prime, but marciano beat a damm good version of charles in that 1st fight.


lastarza and cockell were 26






- jack johnson wiped out his division??? o u mean the way he never fought sam langford, joe jeanette, or sam mcvey later on when they were much better fighters???




u mean the same holmes who never rematched spoon, norton, weaver??


the same holmes who did not take on greg page, michael dokes, pinklon thomas, gerrie coetzee???


the same holmes who never even unified the title??









u are such a hypocrite decagon, u dont know what ur talking about. see how i can twist things around the way u do?

Funny how poeople like you are always bringing up Holmes not unifiying the title when everyone accepted that he was the best and he defended his title 21 times to Marcianos 6!. You always go on about Marciano vs Charles, Walcott and Moore... all those guys were past their best and still gave him hell.
I admire Marciano and he was a great champion for the effort he put into his fight and what he did with limited skills, but to say he is the greatest heavyweight champion of all time is quite simply ludicrous if you have any basic boxing knowledge.... other than Moore, Charles and Walcott and a washed up Louis, Rockys opposition is mediocre and that is the truth for anyone with a half open mind...

for the last time, rocky was not the greatest. NO ONE is saying that, at least not me. i personally rate rocky 5th and many others do. there is nothing crazy about that rating.



see people look at "o marciano beat 42 year old 185lb archie moore" and dismiss his victory right there.


marciano beating 29 year old 6'3 210lb nino valdes sounds a lot better right??

well moore beat valdes, so why shouldnt marciano fight the better fighter


people dont realize these so called "old light-heavyweights" were beating all the young big heavyweights.

Funny how poeople like you are always bringing up Holmes not unifiying the title when everyone accepted that he was the best

i do accept he was the best which is why i rate him in top 5. im simplt showing how u were using double standards and i was throwing it back in ur face.

Rockys opposition is mediocre and that is the truth for anyone with a half open mind...

roland lastarza is in my top 25 heavyweights never to win a title list, hes vastly underated because of his decieving record and horrible management. he was a very good defensive boxer who was defintley not mediocre. lastarza was another eddie machen IMO.


- rex layne pre 1952 was a good HW who is underated because of his record after he fought marciano. the fact is marciano ruined him, like he did a lot of other fighters.

heres a great quote from poster john garfield who saw rex layne live


"Throw out the record book on Layne, he was a rugged brawler with a quick, very heavy right. As he got shopworn and discouraged, more and more, he got outworked and beaten down.

But, when he first raged out of Utah -- full of piss and vinegar -- he'd have been a handful for anybody. He could crack with that right."


he was like a smaller version of gerry cooney




harry kid mathews mediocre??? u mean the same mathews that was ducked by joey maxim?? mathews was a helluva speedy boxer who went up to HW division because he was getting ducked at light-H. mathews looks very good on film.


don cockell was a top 10 british HW of all time, i would not call him mediocre. the man had quite fast handspeed and was a decent boxer


to call these men mediocre is ludicrous.




for all the other men, perhaps u think there mediocre because u have not studied them??? marcianos era unlike dempseys was underated and not studied alot by historians so when they review his era, they dismiss people. its very sad really.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:for the last time, rocky was not the greatest. NO ONE is saying that, at least not me. i personally rate rocky 5th and many others do. there is nothing crazy about that rating.



see people look at "o marciano beat 42 year old 185lb archie moore" and dismiss his victory right there.


marciano beating 29 year old 6'3 210lb nino valdes sounds a lot better right??

well moore beat valdes, so why shouldnt marciano fight the better fighter


people dont realize these so called "old light-heavyweights" were beating all the young big heavyweights.

Funny how poeople like you are always bringing up Holmes not unifiying the title when everyone accepted that he was the best

i do accept he was the best which is why i rate him in top 5. im simplt showing how u were using double standards and i was throwing it back in ur face.

How am I using double standereds?. You are the person who runs down Bob Fosters opposition yet his opposition in his divison was better than Marcianos opposition in his division and he made over twice as many defences than Rocky too. You say Dick Tiger was past it when he fought Foster but he was no older than Walcott and furthermore after the loss to Foster he went on to produce a number of very good performances before his tragic death. As for Lastarza you rate him so highly simply because he gave mARCIANO tough fights... which again simply shows you're blind bias where Marciano is concerned... to rate Lastarza as high as you do is to be honest rather ridicuous...

How am I using double standereds?. You are the person who runs down Bob Fosters opposition yet his opposition in his divison was better than Marcianos opposition in his division and he made over twice as many defences than Rocky too. You say Dick Tiger was past it when he fought Foster but he was no older than Walcott and furthermore after the loss to Foster he went on to produce a number of very good performances before his tragic death. As for Lastarza you rate him so highly simply because he gave mARCIANO tough fights... which again simply shows you're blind bias where Marciano is concerned... to rate Lastarza as high as you do is to be honest rather ridicuous...

ok then dont tell me cooney was good because he never beat a top 10 contender in his life. yet i hear u speak highly of him based on his hype and preformance vs holmes. THATS DOUBLE STANDARD MY FRIEND.

- i rate lastarza on the same level as eddie machen




dick tiger was up a weight class, walcott wasnt. tiger won the middleweight title 7 years earlier, walcott won the title less than 1 year earlier. tiger best was clearly the early to mid 60s at 160, not 15lbs heavier in late 60s.


i have a NY times article may 12 1953


"felix boccichio stated today that if walcott would lose to marciano again, he would retire." - NY times


"if joe wins this wont be his last fight, u can bet on that."- felix boccichio




also notice how walcott didnt retire after the 1st fight. he fought marciano again then retired. walcott was never the same after the 1st marciano fight, and ur in denial if u think otherwise.

you call a guy like rex layne mediocre, yet layne beat walcott BEFORE walcott won the title.

see u simply look at rex laynes record and dismiss him, rather than revieing his career and realizing he was never the same after suffering brutal back to back KO losses by charles and marciano. but the pre 1952 layne is an underated fighter good enough to beat jersey joe walcott and bob satterfield.

you call a guy like rex layne mediocre, yet layne beat walcott BEFORE walcott won the title.

see u simply look at rex laynes record and dismiss him, rather than revieing his career and realizing he was never the same after suffering brutal back to back KO losses by charles and marciano. but the pre 1952 layne is an underated fighter good enough to beat jersey joe walcott and bob satterfield and ezzard charles right after he lossed the title.

Decagon wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:see people look at "o marciano beat 42 year old 185lb archie moore" and dismiss his victory right there.


marciano beating 29 year old 6'3 210lb nino valdes sounds a lot better right??

well moore beat valdes, so why shouldnt marciano fight the better fighter?

Seal Harris beat Max Schmelling, and Max Schmelling beat Joe Louis. Does that mean that Seal Harris is better than Joe Louis?

seal harris never beat max schmeling





- if u think valdes would beat marciano, then i want to know how valdes will accomplish this. not only is marciano in a different class, its a horrible style matchup for valdes. valdes is made for marciano IMO

Decagon wrote:I was thinking of Larry Gains. So, does that mean that Larry Gaines is better than Joe Louis?

schmeling was not in his prime when he lost to gains. he was a 19 year old very green fighter








i hope ur not implying valdes would beat marciano

Decagon wrote:Then what about Steve Hamas? He beat Schmelling five fights before Schmelling beat Louis. Does that mean that Hamas is greater than Joe Louis?

no it doesnt, whats ur point??


are u saying valdez or baker would have beat marciano?

Decagon wrote:No, I'm saying that the fact is, he didn't beat Valdez, and he didn't clean out the division. There are a lot of guys he should have fought, while Johnson, Lewis, Louis, Ali and Holmes didn't leave as many holes in their resume. If Marciano actually had cleaned out the division instead of beating a couple of old light heavyweights, I might rank him in my top 10.

-archie moore was better than anyone at the time. he was the # 1 contender who beat valdes twice, bob baker, etc.


-ezzard charles was the # 1 contender at the time, and he was certainly better than any HW in the world in the first marciano fight


-roland lastarza was 26 and IMO would have boxed valdes ears off


-don cockell was # 2 contender and british champ and only 26 years old

If Marciano actually had cleaned out the division instead of beating a couple of old light heavyweights, I might rank him in my top 10.

well those "old" light-H were beating all the young big heavyweights, so by marciano beating them, hes cleaned out the division.


valdes had his shot but lost to moore in an eliminater.

- baker was losing too much, way too inconsistent

- satterfield was losing to much

- hurricane jackson wanted no part of marciano after puking in a sparring session with rocky after rocky landed a body blow.

- earl walls lost to rockys sparring partner tommy harrison, then all of a suddent retired at 27




deacgon, marciano beat top 20 heavyweights in charles and walcott

and marciano beat top 40 heavyweight of all time in archie moore










decagon ur a hypocrite,



what about jack johnson not fighting sam langford, joe jeanette, sam mcvey when they were much better fighters???


what about holmes not fighting page, coetzee, dokes, thomas instead of those fat bums??

There are a lot of guys he should have fought

please go ahead and tell me who warranted such a title shot that rocky didnt give??

please dont say valdes, he had his shot but lost too moore.







read the reports at the time, everyone was sayig rocky cleaned out the division and had no one left to fight. when rocky retired, nearly everyone thought moore would easily be the next champ.

Decagon wrote:When Marciano was champ, he did commentary on Floyd Patterson's fight with Joey Maxim. When one of the other commentators said, "do you think you can beat this kid," Marciano answered, "I don't know."

-he was the most humble guy ever, such a classy guy never downplayed opponents.





he did an interview with sonny liston


liston said "how do u think u would have done against me rock"


rocky said "i dont know ur a big guy it would have been a tough fight"


sonny said " man i would have killed you "


rocky said " well lets find out, get ur gear and lets get in the ring!"


sonnys handlers removed him from the scene




"If I said I could beat Patterson, you'd think I was bragging. If I said I couldn't, I'd be lying." -Rocky to a group of high school kids about then champ Floyd Patterson

Decagon wrote:Well, again, he didn't beat Floyd Patterson. You sound like one of those Roy Jones fans who excuse him not fighting Michalczewski, Collins, Eubanks, etc...

ur right he retired, and i believe he had good reasons for retiring. dont forget he was 33 and aging and swarmers like marciano NEVER last that long.


would i have liked to see him stay around for 2 more fights and dismantle patterson and machen? sure but it didnt happen



take a look at the marciano tribute and louis one i posted in other section

sonnys handlers removed him from the scene

Good thing they did. Liston would have been back behind bars for manslaughter if they didnt.

theone wrote:

sonnys handlers removed him from the scene

Good thing they did. Liston would have been back behind bars for manslaughter if they didnt.

most likely, rocky was prob fat old and out of shape



- rocky though earned sonnys respect with that, he never spoke bad of him since. sonny realized rocky was a tough SOB


-remember sonny was scared of crazy people, he was scared of ali. thats the only people who he feared, the crazy people. think prison. ali the way he acted liston thought he was crazy.

- liston didnt like it when people stood up to him, i bet u can imagine liston defintley got the shock of his life when rocky challenged him like that. i can tell u liston was probably a little freaked out from that commenbt, probably thought marciano was crazy and it defintely frightenened liston a little.



while i think foreman beats rocky, i favor rocky over liston.

Decagon wrote:Do you think they could get a conviction? Of course, it is pretty much a given that Marciano would die if he actually got into the ring with Liston, but Sugar Ramos didn't go to jail for killing Davey Moore.

prime for prime? no way


in 1960???


rocky would have ended up like joe louis ended up when he fought rocky

iston didnt like it when people stood up to him, i bet u can imagine liston defintley got the shock of his life when rocky challenged him like that. i can tell u liston was probably a little freaked out from that commenbt, probably thought marciano was crazy and it defintely frightenened liston a little.

I dont think Liston was scared of Marciano at all. And i dont think Liston or guys like him are neccasarly scared of crazy people. I grew up around people like that all my life in the South Bronx. The're scared of crazy peole WHO COULD FIGHT and wont stop until someone is near death. And despite popular belief, standing up to a bully in prison or on the street doesnt automatically get you respect. nine times out of ten it got your ass kicked.

Decagon wrote:Even in 1958, Liston pwns Marciano. That's why Marciano quit boxing. He heard that there was this tough kid coming up who'd pwn him.

if u think that, then u dont know much about boxing. marciano feared no one my friend.


he retired because

A. he wanted to spend more time with family- in a total of 4 years 1951-55 it was estimated he spent only 165 days with his wife!

B. al weill screwed him- he hated weill at the end of his career, especially after weill stole money from him on the don cockell fight. this was one of the main reasons rocky retired.

C. lost motivation - rocky wasnt training hard anymore after charles fights, he only trained for 2 months in cockell fight and showed signs of aging in that fight. rockys handlers said it was getting harder and harder for him to get in the gym and train with his sam intentsity. and rocky is a guy who needs to put 110% in for training for him to be effective. rocky not in 100% shape is very vunerable and he knew that, he wanted to retire on top.


D. bad back- he had horrible back problems early in his career and they haunted him later on




when rocky retired, liston had just lost to a 179lb fighter and was now in jail. when rocky retired, there were no big matches except a rematch with moore. Damato said patterson was a year away.

theone wrote:

iston didnt like it when people stood up to him, i bet u can imagine liston defintley got the shock of his life when rocky challenged him like that. i can tell u liston was probably a little freaked out from that commenbt, probably thought marciano was crazy and it defintely frightenened liston a little.

I dont think Liston was scared of Marciano at all. And i dont think Liston or guys like him are neccasarly scared of crazy people. I grew up around people like that all my life in the South Bronx. The're scared of crazy peole WHO COULD FIGHT and wont stop until someone is near death. And despite popular belief, standing up to a bully in prison or on the street doesnt automatically get you respect. nine times out of ten it got your ass kicked.

i dont think liston or marciano were scared of eachother. i just dont see why people think marciano was afraid of anyone?