Lennox aint a Legend!!!

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 05 Jan 2006, 06:26

Not only is Lennox a lot bigger than Rocky hes also very skillful as well. I think it would be a similar fight to his fight against Tyson, Lennox being cautious but wearing Rocky down. I dont dispute however that Tyson was well past his prime in 2002, and the outcome might have been different against a peak Tyson. I also think Lennox had bulked up and slowed down a bit at that stage too.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 05 Jan 2006, 15:39

dr_devious wrote:Not only is Lennox a lot bigger than Rocky hes also very skillful as well. I think it would be a similar fight to his fight against Tyson, Lennox being cautious but wearing Rocky down. I dont dispute however that Tyson was well past his prime in 2002, and the outcome might have been different against a peak Tyson. I also think Lennox had bulked up and slowed down a bit at that stage too.

Christ Almighty! Lummox's win over over Tyson was worth about as much as Holmes' win over Ali! Surely you can come up with a better analogy for whatever point you are trying to make?

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 05 Jan 2006, 15:50

Rory McCloskey wrote:i would hate to call lewis a "legend" because i think he came around in a rather week division that made him appear better then he was. his win against holyfield is sketchy and he beat an OVER OVER OVER the hill tyson. i think his talent, and his domination albeit skeptical omination, do make him a great fighter. he is top 25 imo. i would have liked to see him fight more big fights against major league hof fighters, but he didnt, which is not really fair to blame him for since those fighters were few and far between. i dont think lewis is a legend but i think hes a great champ. top 20 Maybe..but def. top 25. and i know im in the minority when i rank him outside top 15

What you got to do is name 24 other heavyweights who you think would have beaten him convincingly. I can't think of that many. On his game, when he was up for the fight Lewis was devasting. Look how he destroyed Ruddock, who gave Tyson fits and his demolotion of Golota (who gave Bowe fits)

Lewis's only negative side was he was sometimes too cautious, especially against Holyfield, who he still beat IMO.

Lewis was tall, big with decent boxing skills and a big hitter, espceially with the right hand. Not too many fighters lasted when he landed that flush.

Yes he was stopped twice but they were both to big punching fighters, who were both fighting for the title and 'up' for the fight more than Lewis. And Lewis stopped them both in the rematch.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 05 Jan 2006, 16:00

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:if lennox were to win, i would bet on a decision not a KO.

lennox was a cautious fighter, and against big punchers he never went in wild. he stayed back and boxed using his height and reach. however marcianos non stop workrate and aggresion and inside fighting skills i will prevail him in the end. i cant see lennox being able to deal with marciano in the champpoionship rounds. marciano in his crouch will make it almost impossible for lennox to hit him without lennox making himself off balance or vunerable. charley goldman trained marciano to fight in the crouch. the crouch was just defensive, it was also an offensive crouch. by 1953, goldman had taught marciano how to throw effective punches from that crouch without being off balance.

i feel a foreman would get to marciano, but not lewis

Oh come on, Lewis would destroy Marciano. Marciano was 4+ stone lighter, 7 inches shorter and outreached by 16 inches. Lewis punches would have had a greater effect on Marciano than Marcianos on him. Marciano also marked up easily and he couldn't have bullied Lewis around.

At some stage pure size and strength play a major part in a fight. Lewis wasn't a big fat lumbering heavyweight like some others, he was muscled and quick for his size. I agree Lewis was sometimes cautious but he wasn't against Ruddock (a noted puncher) and he absolutley destroyed him.

Marciano was extremelt fit but his energy would soon be sapped with a huge guy like Lewis bossing him around and landing big punches. Marciano was not invincible, he has the benefit of an unbeaten record but you have to take those rose-tinted glasses off sometimes.

theone · Post by **theone** » 05 Jan 2006, 18:43

marciano was clearly a greater puncher than mccail and rahman

Marciano was basically a wild swinger who hit anything he could reach. And what dso you think would have happened to Moore, Walcott and Charles if Mccall and Rahman landed flush on them?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 05 Jan 2006, 20:03

theone wrote:
marciano was clearly a greater puncher than mccail and rahman
Marciano was basically a wild swinger who hit anything he could reach. And what dso you think would have happened to Moore, Walcott and Charles if Mccall and Rahman landed flush on them?

I'm not an old-timer nuthugger but it seems from your logic that we can dismiss any of the great heavies of the past. I mean if bums like Mccall and Rahman are just too big for them. I suppose Cooney would have KO'd the young Ali too...

Actually, in some ways Lummox reminds me of one old-time heavyweight champ................ Jess Willard.

theone · Post by **theone** » 05 Jan 2006, 20:59

I'm not an old-timer nuthugger but it seems from your logic that we can dismiss any of the great heavies of the past. I mean if bums like Mccall and Rahman are just too big for them. I suppose Cooney would have KO'd the young Ali too...

How exactley did you draw that conclusion from what I wrote? I suggest you pay better attention to the context of what is being written.

Actually, in some ways Lummox reminds me of one old-time heavyweight champ................ Jess Willard.

I'll assume your joking.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 05 Jan 2006, 22:13

theone wrote:
marciano was clearly a greater puncher than mccail and rahman
Marciano was basically a wild swinger who hit anything he could reach. And what dso you think would have happened to Moore, Walcott and Charles if Mccall and Rahman landed flush on them?

they wouldnt land flush on them, they are not good enough

wild swinger? yes

effective swinger? yes

whats the big deal about him being wild, he nulified his wildness by non stop throwing punches. he used the shooting theory, the more shots u take, ur bound to nail one. thats what his philospehy is.

theone · Post by **theone** » 05 Jan 2006, 22:49

wild swinger? yes
effective swinger? yes
whats the big deal about him being wild, he nulified his wildness by non stop throwing punches. he used the shooting theory, the more shots u take, ur bound to nail one. thats what his philospehy is.

But using your own criteria does that make him technically a great puncher, comparable to Joe Louis? Or are you saying he was a greater puncher than Rahman and Mccall because he could punch non stop for a longer period of time?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 06 Jan 2006, 00:12

theone wrote:
I'm not an old-timer nuthugger but it seems from your logic that we can dismiss any of the great heavies of the past. I mean if bums like Mccall and Rahman are just too big for them. I suppose Cooney would have KO'd the young Ali too...
How exactley did you draw that conclusion from what I wrote? I suggest you pay better attention to the context of what is being written.

OK, enlighten me, what DID you mean? Are you NOT saying that Walcott and Charles would be KO'd if hit flush by such bums as McCall and Rahman?

Actually, in some ways Lummox reminds me of one old-time heavyweight champ................ Jess Willard.

theone wrote:
I'll assume your joking.

You can assume that. I am deadly serious. Actually, on reflection, Willard probably had a better chin.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Jan 2006, 01:42

Marciano never fought a huge guy, so how do we know he'll do as well against someone the size of Rahman as he would against someone the size of Ezzard Charles?

KO 1 6'4 254lb jerry jackson- one punch KO, jackson out cold

KO 6 6'5 220lb hard hitting johhny shkor- he gave skhor a beating so bad that shkor never fought again

heres a pic of johnny shkor
http://www.fightography.com/destination ... T00030.jpg

KO 1 6'5 213lb patrick "irish' connelly- marciano knocked him out with one right hand. it took several minutes to revive connelly

TKO 1 6'3 229lb Big Bill Wilson- Marciano beat the shit out of him cutting his face so badly the ref stopped the fight in 1 round.

KO 8 6'2 214lb Joe Louis- we all saw this fight on film. you saw how marciano pushed him around the ring the whole fight despite being outweighed by 35lb. this fight showed me marciano could easily beat the big guys. joe louis may have been well past his prime but he was still joe louis, the # 1 contender who was coming off 8 victories and still a very dangerous fighter with a pistol like jab.

6'4 200lb hard hitting propsect carmine vingo- vingo was knocked unconcsious and nearly died as a result of this bout. he was actually paralysized from the waist down for some time because of this bout

those were the main ones right there that had a considerable weight and hieght advantage over rocky. but rocky did fight more 200lb + men.

guys like charles and archie moore said "marciano was by far the strongest man i ever fought". now remember both these guys took on many 220lb + men. this goes to show u how strong marciano was. he was defintley strong enough to handle the big men.

i have many sparring session stories i could tell u that delt with rocky fighting big men. just ask i will be happy to share them. he even sparred with nino valdes.

"The truth was that Rocky loved fighting big guys; he found them easier to beat and knock out than those faster little guys that ran all over the ring and tried to escape." -Sonny Marciano

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Jan 2006, 02:21

Decagon wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Marciano never fought a huge guy, so how do we know he'll do as well against someone the size of Rahman as he would against someone the size of Ezzard Charles?
KO 6 6'5 220lb hard hitting johhny shkor- he gave skhor a beating so bad that shkor never fought again

heres a pic of johnny shkor
http://www.fightography.com/destination ... T00030.jpg
Um, Johnny Shkor was 6'2", and he was barely a .500 fighter.

he was not 6'2 i think boxrec made it error. i got other sources saying he was 6'3-6'5

- take a look at the pic, if he was 6'2 he would not be that skinny and still weight 220lb, he was clearly taller

- skhor was good enough to knock out top contender tami mauriello

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Jan 2006, 03:53

Decagon wrote:... but not good enough to knock Murriello down. That fight was stopped on a cut.

i think he knocked mauriello down a couple rounds before, but im not too sure. it was a HUGE upset.

but decagon, as u see marciano did take on bigger guys and beat them BADLY. as sonny marciano said, rocky loved fighting the big guys. and if u ever want to know about his sparring session with tommy jackson or nino valdes pm me.

if u want to take the best example of marciano vs a bigger man,

i suggest watching louis vs marciano. louis was 214lb and despite being well well past his prime, he was still a dangerous top contender with experience and solid boxing skill who still had his jab 100% and a still powerful left hook though he no right hand. but watch the fight, the way marciano bulls him to the ropes and outphysicales joe. rocky was incredible strong p4p. jaclem says it is marcianos strength is his biggest asset.
- joe louis was amazing, even that old bladling slow hulk had a pistol like jab. rocky said louis jab " felt like getting hit with a hammer"

my opinion was always that the speedy accruate ring technicians was the worst style for the rock, yet the fact that he beat them all really proved how truelly great he was. when u watch him face a strong hard puncher slugger like layne, he won easily. thats why i never understood why weill didnt throw him in there vs a neuhas, valdes, satterfield, or baker which i thought would have been much easier fights.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 06 Jan 2006, 14:41

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Marciano never fought a huge guy, so how do we know he'll do as well against someone the size of Rahman as he would against someone the size of Ezzard Charles?

KO 1 6'4 254lb jerry jackson- one punch KO, jackson out cold

KO 6 6'5 220lb hard hitting johhny shkor- he gave skhor a beating so bad that shkor never fought again

heres a pic of johnny shkor
http://www.fightography.com/destination ... T00030.jpg

KO 1 6'5 213lb patrick "irish' connelly- marciano knocked him out with one right hand. it took several minutes to revive connelly

TKO 1 6'3 229lb Big Bill Wilson- Marciano beat the shit out of him cutting his face so badly the ref stopped the fight in 1 round.

KO 8 6'2 214lb Joe Louis- we all saw this fight on film. you saw how marciano pushed him around the ring the whole fight despite being outweighed by 35lb. this fight showed me marciano could easily beat the big guys. joe louis may have been well past his prime but he was still joe louis, the # 1 contender who was coming off 8 victories and still a very dangerous fighter with a pistol like jab.

6'4 200lb hard hitting propsect carmine vingo- vingo was knocked unconcsious and nearly died as a result of this bout. he was actually paralysized from the waist down for some time because of this bout

those were the main ones right there that had a considerable weight and hieght advantage over rocky. but rocky did fight more 200lb + men.

guys like charles and archie moore said "marciano was by far the strongest man i ever fought". now remember both these guys took on many 220lb + men. this goes to show u how strong marciano was. he was defintley strong enough to handle the big men.

i have many sparring session stories i could tell u that delt with rocky fighting big men. just ask i will be happy to share them. he even sparred with nino valdes.

"The truth was that Rocky loved fighting big guys; he found them easier to beat and knock out than those faster little guys that ran all over the ring and tried to escape." -Sonny Marciano

Theres a world of difference between fighting a big fighter who is half decent to fighting a big fighter who is rubbish.

Lets look at the BIG fighters you name. Its interesting that only Vingo hadn't lost his previous fight before fighting Marciano.

Bill Wilson. A record of 42-11-2 when he fought Marciano. KO'ed several times previously and lost his previous fight.

Patrick Connelly. A record of 8-5-0. Lost previous fight.

Johnny Shkor. A record of 29-18-2. Lost previous fight.

Jerry Jackson. A record of 2-1-0. Lost previous fight.

Carmine Vingo. A record of 16-1-0. Hadn't fought anyone of note, infact had rematches with several of his fighters. Also his record shows a poor KO record which dispells the rumours of his devasting punching power.

Yes they may have been big but they were no way near being decent fighters, even Vingo.

Marciano never fought anyone of Lewis size, power and speed and would be lucky to get past round 4.

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 15 Jan 2006, 09:26

basically,it all boils down to 2 things.lewis had no personality,and he is'nt from the u.s.a.if he had either of them 2 going for him,no one would question his greatness.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Jan 2006, 13:41

Carmine Vingo. A record of 16-1-0. Hadn't fought anyone of note, infact had rematches with several of his fighters. Also his record shows a poor KO record which dispells the rumours of his devasting punching power.

u cant just go by boxrec,

vingos record is incomplete. vingo is actually really 27-3. and vingo could hit. anyone who seen him live says he was a hard hitter. his KO percentage is misleading stat, but dont forget his record is incomplete. hes really 27-3. and if u dont think he hits hard, ask marciano. u cant just go by the record and say certain fighters werent good. i have articles on Vingo, and he was considered a huge prospect coming out of new york. he 6'4 195lb hard hitter and only 20 years old, who knows how good he may have been if marciano didnt end his career.

Johnny Shkor. A record of 29-18-2. Lost previous fight.

.

shkor may be 29-18, but he did stop # 1 heavyweight contender tami mauriello in a big upset, so he clearly wasnt a bum.

remember, some of guys on marcianos record is incomplete. i remember not so long ago, they had jerry jacksons only fight against marciano. now all of a sudden hes 2-1. so that sounds a lot better than 0-1 right?

Marciano never fought anyone of Lewis size, power and speed and would be lucky to get past round 4.

ok well niether did any other heavyweight champions. if ur going to critizize marciano, then u might as well critzize liston, louis, dempsey, and others.

lennox lewis nearly lost to a blown up past his prime cruierweight holyfield whos natural weight is only 200lb and he has to gain weight for fights.

its funny how people so easily pick lennx over marciano even though marciano never lossed and lennox was knocked out by one punch by two B level fighters. its like people think marciano was a small pimp who will just lay down.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 15 Jan 2006, 15:19

Decagon wrote:Louis was at his best at 200 pounds. Just because in his old age, he was 15 pounds overweight doesn't make him a "big heavyweight."

Louis' best weight was 206-207lbs.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Jan 2006, 17:18

DoubleM wrote:
Decagon wrote:Louis was at his best at 200 pounds. Just because in his old age, he was 15 pounds overweight doesn't make him a "big heavyweight."
Louis' best weight was 206-207lbs.

decagon,

but its not like louis was fat, it was bulk muscle. he was 215lb of muscle. i consider a 6'2 215lb a big heavyweight. isnt sonny liston only 6' 212lb?

at louis peak in 1942, he was 207lb, so he was only 8lb over that.

Otyson · Post by **Otyson** » 16 Jan 2006, 00:25

Dont know why iam saying this but mike tyson was the best when he was fighing in the 1980s to 1993 by the time he came to lennox he had too much on his mind

Otyson · Post by **Otyson** » 16 Jan 2006, 00:37

MIKE TYSON IS THE TRUE LEGEND !!!!!

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 16 Jan 2006, 05:23

I think a peak Sonny Liston would knock a peak Joe Louis into oblivion.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 16 Jan 2006, 09:44

barry wrote:Not a chance is Lewis a legend. Legends don't get blown away in their supposed primes by less than great fighters! It might happen once by shear luck, but not twice!

The Mc Call stoppage was Bs. He was up and ok to go on.

witherspoon · Post by **witherspoon** » 16 Jan 2006, 11:30

yiddo14 wrote:basically,it all boils down to 2 things.lewis had no personality,and he is'nt from the u.s.a.if he had either of them 2 going for him,no one would question his greatness.

I don't think most people really care where he decides he is from, but you make a good point regarding personality. He just didn't have one.
Oh, and of course, he might be accepted more readily as a great if he didn't have a glass jaw?

dalek · Post by **dalek** » 16 Jan 2006, 11:46

glass jaw is way ott.the man was dropped twice in his career.the mccall fight he was no worse off than larry holmes after being decked by renaldo snipes.

witherspoon · Post by **witherspoon** » 16 Jan 2006, 11:54

dalek wrote:glass jaw is way ott.the man was dropped twice in his career.the mccall fight he was no worse off than larry holmes after being decked by renaldo snipes.

Ok, guess he deserves credit for taking some bombs from Mercer, but I dunno. As good as he proved himself, I can't help picturing Lewis hitting the deck like a tonne of rocks when anyone mentions greatness.

Lennox aint a Legend!!!

Lennox Lewis, A Legend?

Re: re