BoxRec

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, interesting isn't it that all of a sudden coal is being seen as 'the fuel of the future' despite cuntcher's assertions that the pits were no longer economically viable?

The whole issue with the miners was nothing to do with modernising the nation, but rather with breaking the back of the trade unions. The miners represented a powerful faction not just as trade unionists, but also in deciding the make up of the labour party. By killing the manufacturing base in this country, thatcher hoped to destroy socialism, and in large part she did. We are now a far more self-centred service based country, where personal wealth and acquisition of material goods has become the holy grail, and we are definetly paying the price for that in raising a generation for whom obligation will become a dirty word.

What's wrong with having a strong sense of community, and having a strong sense of regional identity, truth is it makes people happy, a lot more than money does.

Interesting research has been done recently on what makes people happy, and interestingly, money is way way down on the list.

If the government at the time could buy gas/coal at a much lower value than it cost them to employ miners it made sense to buy elsewhere - simple really. The only reason its become a viable option again is because oil prices are sky high now (they werent then) and getting energy reserves at home has become more attractive again.

James what job do you do and would you be happy swapping it for going down a mine and making a fraction of your current earnings?

Okay heres a question where do you draw the line with Scargill, the strike action and the demands for higher wages. Do you pay 150% what it costs to buy coal/gas/oil elsewhere, 200%? 300%? 1000%? When does it become unfeesable? Because the trade unions were holding the country to hostage and asking for above inflation pay rises.

At the moment I am temping, before that I was doing sales, prior to that I've worked in numerous fields including computer games.

However, I am university educated, although from an impoverished background, and I live in London where there have been plenty of choices for a long time. I'm not someone who grew up in a mining village where several generations of my family have worked in the mines.

Whole towns were literally built off the back of the mining and steel industries, so it's not a like for like comparison. I wouldn't want to go and work down a mine for all the tea in china, but if it was the only available job and my only options, what else do I do?

My point is that if the tories wanted to buy coal elsewhere because it was cheaper, they should have considered the impact on the people in their hundreds of thousands who would be affected. Which is more important, the welfare of a nation, or the nation's welfare? Plunging hundreds of thousands of people into poverty that lasted a generation is in my opinion too big a price to pay for modernising the economy.

I am not saying Scargill was a saint, far from it, but the conservative government took an indecent amount of pleasure in breaking the working class of the northeast and wales on the wheel.

Change doesn't always have to be brutal, and economics should not be the ultimate arbiter of everything. Free market economics is a crock of shite, it doesn't take into account the countless jobs which have to be done to keep a civilised society ticking over, but which are never going to benefit those concerned.

Let me give you an example of one such example. Nowadays, you are never going to find many english born people (of whatever colour) who want to do shitty, low paid menial jobs, when they have the option of signing on and trying to make some money on the side. Hence we have countless immigrants doing the 'McJob' as it's known, shitty, no prospects, low pay, menial but a job nontheless.

At the same time we have people ranting and raving about 'fornicating immigrants taking our jobs, the same jobs they themselves would rather sign on for than do.

The fact is, free market economics favours big business, and big business does not give a flying fornicate about the individual or about how major economic changes affect society. The big wheel keeps on turning, crushing those unfortunate enough to be beneath it's rim as the next economical cycle occurs.

Sure, we can let free market globalisation run everything, but be prepared for those without to get more and more pissed off as those with get richer, which is precisely what is the outcome of freemarket economics.

Poverty is not to do with food, shelter, clothing, it's to do with a sense of having less than others, which is why my mate who has 150k a year feels he is missing out, despite earning way more than he needs to live on.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:One thing which springs from all this.

Politicians have for a long time concentrated most of their efforts on making sure the economy is 'strong,' 'prosperous, 'etc.

Why is this so important? If it has been proven that being affluent doesn't make you happy (which it has), then what is the point focussing so much energy on making sure that our society is affluent.

The recent research indicates that anything over and above the amount needed to put a roof over our head, feed us, clothe us and keep us secure, does nothing to improve how happy we feel with life, so I ask you, should politics focus so much on the economic welfare of a nation?

I've got a mate who is making about £150,000 a year, but all he ever bangs on about is how he wants more, and how he wants enough to retire to Australia, as though that is the solution to everything. He spends about £1000 a month on coke, and despite earning about 5 times what I do a year, doesn't seem happy with his lot. This is hardly an isolated case. When I pointed out to him that if he retired in 5 years time he would be bored shitless, and that if he really wanted to, he could easily save enough money to go travelling for 2 years doing whatever he wanted from his massive salary, he just couldn't understand what I was on about.

Instead he continues to get up at 6 am, get home at 9pm every day, commuting 3-4 hours a day, carping about his well paid job killing his freedom and drinking himself into a stupor when he gets home, arguing with his missus constantly, and shovelling huge amounts of yayo up his hooter at every available opportunity.

Money sure makes you happy eh?

Ever been poor, lived on the breadline or been to to developing countries where people are hustling to getsome change for their next meal? I'm allot happier when I have more money in my pocket and I don't think many would not be.

Goto agree that the office boy, work 14hours a day mentality is a lousy way to live life. I work for myself, work when I want and try to enjoy life, and enjoy work too.

Yes, I've been very poor and lived on the breadline, and it's depressing, but that is not what I am talking about. Most people in this country who have any kind of relatively well paid job, are not on the breadline. My point is (see my other post) that poverty is in the mind (unless you are of course starving/homeless etc), and that it's more to do with feeling like you have less than others, and status, than anything else for people in the western world. In developing countries, where someone who earnt my salary would be very comfortable, the wories are different.

My mate is working himself stupid, and it's making him miserable, but rather than see that he is burning himself out and not enjoying life while he can, he thinks he has to try harder and harder and push himself more so he can get out of it all 'in the future' rather than enjoy himself now, which is far more imporant as he could drop dead in 2 years with all the work, drink and coke he is doing.

There's some interesting stuff I read about how subsistence living, where you live off what you produce, is actually a far less time consuming occupation though there is a lot of hard labour, we work far more hours now in our modern world than people who lived on the land did, but we have a lot more options, although having the time to enjoy them is another matter.

J wrote:

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Might have posted this glorious quote from that evil bastard Thatcher before. It comes from one of her former aides who was at a dinner with her shortly after the defeat of the Miners:

As for the political arguments going on for fucks sake you lot,I get the feeling that half of you vote Labour / Tory cos your Grandad/Dad did.

To paraphrase the the words of Brian Redhead

" a moment of silence while J ponders on his temerity in claiming to know how we vote"

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Wow what a considered response, obviously the mark of someone with an amazing knowledge of politics. You're probably the sort who thinks Margaret thatcher was the best prime minister we ever had, despite the fact she made an absolute mess of this country and ruined the lives of millions, all in the name of pushing through her ideas on the free market economy.

Is it any wonder that the more this country apes America's economic model, the more we seem to get their problems with violence and gang culture.

You don't solve any kind of social problem with knee jerk reactions, despite building more and more prisons, giving people lethal injections etc, for an affluent nation, America is still an incredibly violent society. Make of that what you will.

I agree totally with that post.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

ABA Boxing wrote:I think the Middle East is brutal in its ways, but sometimes a little of there punishment could be used in this country on our thugs!

People would think twice before acting the way they do if the punishment was anything like what they do in other parts of the World.
A £60 fine or a short Prison sentence is no deterent to the modern age youth!

Sure' let's ape the laws of a country where Women are in some cases beaten to death for revealing their ankles! Let's go back to the middle ages because that is what you're talking about.

I agree there too.

Whats the point of having them laws?

We had capital punishment in the old days and people were still commiting the crimes regardless of it.

So ABA guy they'd still commit these crimes.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Did anyone read the newpaper report about that attack in Tooting the other week. Two asian men in their mid 30's who went to try and defuse a fight between two teenage gangs, dragged out of their cars and hacked to death with machetes by 30 people?

What makes anyone want to do that? How can you butcher someone like that?

Although I don't believe the whole country is going to pot, there is definetly a growing gang culture which is very worrying. Someone has to find what is causing this and do something about it. I suspect that it's something to do with the erosion of community (thanks for that thatch!), and gangs are replacing the local bonds which people identified with 30-40 years ago and giving the youth element somewhere to fit in.

I have no knowledge whatsoever of the incident you mention, but I'm willing to bet that none of those wielding the machetes were white.

When those two girls got shot dead at a party in Nottingham a few years back, before I had even seen their faces on the news or heard their names I said to my gf "I bet they are black". I was right. Now considering black people are an ethnic minority in Britain, statistically I should have been wrong, but I wasn't - I just knew they would be.

At the High Court recently, six men were jailed for the sadistic rape and murder of Mary Ann Leneghan. Anyone care to tell me the ethnicity of ALL SIX?

Cue accusations of me being "racist"... but fact are facts, and if your looking for answers James there is some indisputable evidence right there. The “breakdown of community” may be a contributing factor true, but with respect, its also the kind of rhetoric liberal-minded individuals use to avoid saying what everyone in every home and workplace in the country is saying.

Loftgroov wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Did anyone read the newpaper report about that attack in Tooting the other week. Two asian men in their mid 30's who went to try and defuse a fight between two teenage gangs, dragged out of their cars and hacked to death with machetes by 30 people?

What makes anyone want to do that? How can you butcher someone like that?

Although I don't believe the whole country is going to pot, there is definetly a growing gang culture which is very worrying. Someone has to find what is causing this and do something about it. I suspect that it's something to do with the erosion of community (thanks for that thatch!), and gangs are replacing the local bonds which people identified with 30-40 years ago and giving the youth element somewhere to fit in.

I have no knowledge whatsoever of the incident you mention, but I'm willing to bet that none of those wielding the machetes were white.

When those two girls got shot dead at a party in Nottingham a few years back, before I had even seen their faces on the news or heard their names I said to my gf "I bet they are black". I was right. Now considering black people are an ethnic minority in Britain, statistically I should have been wrong, but I wasn't - I just knew they would be.

At the High Court recently, six men were jailed for the sadistic rape and murder of Mary Ann Leneghan. Anyone care to tell me the ethnicity of ALL SIX?

Cue accusations of me being "racist"... but fact are facts, and if your looking for answers James there is some indisputable evidence right there. The “breakdown of community” may be a contributing factor true, but with respect, its also the kind of rhetoric liberal-minded individuals use to avoid saying what everyone in every home and workplace in the country is saying.

Much of what Lofty says will make most people cringe. It's a difficult issue to raise. I have to say, I had the same reaction to the Nottingham shooting. And to the recent shooting of the WPC. And the murder on the doorstep of the banker, etc.

When a knee jerk reaction is consistently proved right...ah, God knows.

By the way, there are thousands of white shitbags as well. In fact, the majority of those needlessly and shamelessly sucking my taxes on the welfare state are undoubtedly white. The welfare state is one of the century's greatest innovations, no doubt. Shame that so many bastards are allowed to take the piss out of it.

The piss-taking rich should also be tackled, naturally.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, shows's her for what she was, a vainglorious bouffant wearing cuntok.

Happily gloating that hundreds of thousands of families all around the country were going to face grinding poverty for the next decade, all in the name of 'progress.'

I too will dance a little jig, her bastard husband has gone, and hopefully someone will pop a cap in that arrogant little shit Mark's head for his shady dealings some time soon.

McDonnell – I have always thought you talk sense, but now I’m beginning to question that. What terrible evils did Dennis Thatcher himself commit that mean your now glad the “bastard” is dead?

Mark Thatcher is undoubtedly a scumbag, but in his case you’re only too happy to abandon your bleeding heart liberal view on the world to advocate a fairly draconian measure of “shooting him in the head”. Evidently you (and your family?) suffered under the Tories, and have an axe to grind. Didn’t we all….

But what is better since ’97? A scumbag welfare state culture?

Or was the pre-1980 ‘Winter of Discontent’, with trade unions demanding huge pay rises and attempting to run the country, thereby holding it to ransom, more your thing? What a great time that was in our history….and who put a stop to it?

So the fact that you remember that those cases doesn't say more about the way that human memory works?

For instance, if for say, in Delhi, there were a few cases of violent assaults by western tourists on locals, you don't think they might start saying 'bloody white bastards coming over here causing trouble?' The fact that there were also thousands of incidences of violence on indians by other indians during that same year, would probably not enter their heads?

It is also down to which cases the media chooses to highlight. Do you think that every single murder in London makes the news, or every gun crime, or every rape, or every gang related crime? I would expect better from you Ian, you know the way the media works, they love anything with a racial element to it.

The case in Tooting was asian lads, and they were attacking one another, that's no surprise, tooting has a very large bangladeshi population many of whom are young males.

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote: I have to say, I had the same reaction to the Nottingham shooting. And to the recent shooting of the WPC. And the murder on the doorstep of the banker, etc.

When a knee jerk reaction is consistently proved right...ah, God knows.

Oh of course, there are plenty of scumbag white people too. But you just confirmed my point. You think the same way, but feel uncomfortable saying so. That is because modern society has deemed such thought unacceptable.

I'm not a racist.... I think the BNP are pricks.... if Griffin & Co got run over by a bus I'd laugh.... but that doesn't mean I can't see whats happening with my own eyes and comment on it if I wish.

Events would seem to indicate that;

'Black culture has been a predominantly destructive influence on British society.'

Unfortunate, but true......

Loftgroov wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, shows's her for what she was, a vainglorious bouffant wearing cuntok.

Happily gloating that hundreds of thousands of families all around the country were going to face grinding poverty for the next decade, all in the name of 'progress.'

I too will dance a little jig, her bastard husband has gone, and hopefully someone will pop a cap in that arrogant little shit Mark's head for his shady dealings some time soon.

McDonnell – I have always thought you talk sense, but now I’m beginning to question that. What terrible evils did Dennis Thatcher himself commit that mean your now glad the “bastard” is dead?

Mark Thatcher is undoubtedly a scumbag, but in his case you’re only too happy to abandon your bleeding heart liberal view on the world to advocate a fairly draconian measure of “shooting him in the head”. Evidently you (and your family?) suffered under the Tories, and have an axe to grind. Didn’t we all….

But what is better since ’97? A scumbag welfare state culture?

Or was the pre-1980 ‘Winter of Discontent’, with trade unions demanding huge pay rises and attempting to run the country, thereby holding it to ransom, more your thing? What a great time that was in our history….and who put a stop to it?

Dennis thatcher had funny teeth, nuff said.

I expect you'll be rooting for that swine Ronaldihno's demise soon then.

He could eat an apple through a tennis racket that lad...he looks like a teenage lesbian too.

Loftgroov wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Did anyone read the newpaper report about that attack in Tooting the other week. Two asian men in their mid 30's who went to try and defuse a fight between two teenage gangs, dragged out of their cars and hacked to death with machetes by 30 people?

What makes anyone want to do that? How can you butcher someone like that?

Although I don't believe the whole country is going to pot, there is definetly a growing gang culture which is very worrying. Someone has to find what is causing this and do something about it. I suspect that it's something to do with the erosion of community (thanks for that thatch!), and gangs are replacing the local bonds which people identified with 30-40 years ago and giving the youth element somewhere to fit in.

I have no knowledge whatsoever of the incident you mention, but I'm willing to bet that none of those wielding the machetes were white.

When those two girls got shot dead at a party in Nottingham a few years back, before I had even seen their faces on the news or heard their names I said to my gf "I bet they are black". I was right. Now considering black people are an ethnic minority in Britain, statistically I should have been wrong, but I wasn't - I just knew they would be.

At the High Court recently, six men were jailed for the sadistic rape and murder of Mary Ann Leneghan. Anyone care to tell me the ethnicity of ALL SIX?

Cue accusations of me being "racist"... but fact are facts, and if your looking for answers James there is some indisputable evidence right there. The “breakdown of community” may be a contributing factor true, but with respect, its also the kind of rhetoric liberal-minded individuals use to avoid saying what everyone in every home and workplace in the country is saying.

And what was the ethnicity of the blokes that were actually tryingto do they're daily good deed.....Asian

When you here in the news about a peadofile (sp) do you say ahhh I bet their white....hence all white people are pedos - doesn't ring true does it and you wouldn't make a generalisation about all whites because it doesn't make sense. But when its said about a minority it makes sense to generalise? ohhh some blks stabbed someone then you make generalisations about blacks as a whole while the vast majority may be good hard working honest people.

The 5-10% of ethnic immigrants that came to this country are working class and people from lower socio-economic groups commit more violent crimes on average. Ethnic minorities as much as we may like to say were a diverse country are limited in opportunities and excluded which will push some of the less steadfast to criminal lifestyles.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I would expect better from you Ian, you know the way the media works, they love anything with a racial element to it.

You're right of course. But they also love anything with shooters in it, etc. I might very well be getting things out of proportion, skewed by the media kaleidoscope.

Phenomenal-Nutrition – the points you make may hold some truth, and are often touted in response to comments such as mine.

My comments are of course sociologically and politically unpalatable in 2006, so I’m not expecting many supporters. I guess I’ll just have to remain contented in the knowledge that I see things as they are, and have the conviction to say so. So will many more people – one day.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
When you here in the news about a peadofile (sp) do you say ahhh I bet their white....hence all white people are pedos - doesn't ring true does it and you wouldn't make a generalisation about all whites because it doesn't make sense. But when its said about a minority it makes sense to generalise? ohhh some blks stabbed someone then you make generalisations about blacks as a whole while the vast majority may be good hard working honest people.

The 5-10% of ethnic immigrants that came to this country are working class and people from lower socio-economic groups commit more violent crimes on average. Ethnic minorities as much as we may like to say were a diverse country are limited in opportunities and excluded which will push some of the less steadfast to criminal lifestyles.

To be fair, PN, when I hear paedophile, I actually think of a middle-aged white bloke - correct. But, of course, I don't follow your ridiculous syllogism that all whites are paedos - and I doubt Loftgroov does either.

And only the most stupid person would employ it on any other racial group either.

Nor of course that white people have more predisposition to this sort of crime, which is the other step people take. It is more a factor I would have thought that there are far more middle class white people, and that affluent middle class people are more likely to be able to get away with being a paedophile for longer, as they are seen as 'respectable'

Boy I love these threads, it's like a bizzare butterfly effect.

Glenn McCrory gets a shoeing outside a nightclub by a bunch of hoolies, and it provokes a debate on economics, politics, industry and racial stereotyping of crime. Fanbloodytastic, it's just this which has kept me going on and past 10k...

Slapsie Maxie wrote:

J wrote:

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Might have posted this glorious quote from that evil bastard Thatcher before. It comes from one of her former aides who was at a dinner with her shortly after the defeat of the Miners:

As for the political arguments going on for fucks sake you lot,I get the feeling that half of you vote Labour / Tory cos your Grandad/Dad did.

To paraphrase the the words of Brian Redhead

" a moment of silence while J ponders on his temerity in claiming to know how we vote"

HMM THINK THATS PRETTY OBVIOUS FORM SOME OF THE POSTS HERE.

look its not a pop at anyone, just provoking thought. Its not black and white as some post on here..

Ahem - back to topic, in today's Sun there was a report that one man was arrested for the attack......

E wrote:Ahem - back to topic, in today's Sun there was a report that one man was arrested for the attack......

yip and he was 32.

kinda puts to bed some of the shit spouted in this thread doncha think

wasnt a 15 year old hoodie at all. NUFF SAID.

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
When you here in the news about a peadofile (sp) do you say ahhh I bet their white....hence all white people are pedos - doesn't ring true does it and you wouldn't make a generalisation about all whites because it doesn't make sense. But when its said about a minority it makes sense to generalise? ohhh some blks stabbed someone then you make generalisations about blacks as a whole while the vast majority may be good hard working honest people.

The 5-10% of ethnic immigrants that came to this country are working class and people from lower socio-economic groups commit more violent crimes on average. Ethnic minorities as much as we may like to say were a diverse country are limited in opportunities and excluded which will push some of the less steadfast to criminal lifestyles.

To be fair, PN, when I hear paedophile, I actually think of a middle-aged white bloke - correct. But, of course, I don't follow your ridiculous syllogism that all whites are paedos - and I doubt Loftgroov does either.

And only the most stupid person would employ it on any other racial group either.

Yes I was just trying to make the point that generalisations are unfair and he was insinuating that immigrants/ethnic minorities are to blame for high levels of violent crime, it can be flipped the other way to show generalisations are simply ignorant.

Blk Chavs are as much a representation of blk people as White Chavs are of white people.

On the Thatcher debate: isn't it possible that discontent, i.e. the unemployment, was more noticeable in the absence of our modern welfare benefits?
Many more people are eligible to claim now.

And to just touch on drug dealers: surely their apparent decline is due to their learning from past mistakes?
I wonder if maybe gangs are becoming more sensible in regards to flashing illegal wealth?
Discretion reduces confrontations.

I've never really warmed to McCrory as a person, but respect his career and wish him a fast recovery.

(I think JM has a valid point about communities - despite my not being a fan of them. Solipsism does appear to be fuelled by current tabloid/televisual media, including entertainment. Messages of integrity aren't in vogue, nor are the valued few who exemplify it.)

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
When you here in the news about a peadofile (sp) do you say ahhh I bet their white....hence all white people are pedos - doesn't ring true does it and you wouldn't make a generalisation about all whites because it doesn't make sense. But when its said about a minority it makes sense to generalise? ohhh some blks stabbed someone then you make generalisations about blacks as a whole while the vast majority may be good hard working honest people.

The 5-10% of ethnic immigrants that came to this country are working class and people from lower socio-economic groups commit more violent crimes on average. Ethnic minorities as much as we may like to say were a diverse country are limited in opportunities and excluded which will push some of the less steadfast to criminal lifestyles.

To be fair, PN, when I hear paedophile, I actually think of a middle-aged white bloke - correct. But, of course, I don't follow your ridiculous syllogism that all whites are paedos - and I doubt Loftgroov does either.

And only the most stupid person would employ it on any other racial group either.

I do to Ian, and I actually agree with Lofty... Not being racist, but it the first image that comes to my head... For vandals (not muders but someone who will commit a crime)... I think of white 16 year olds, wearing a baseball cap, white trackie top and white taps and the bling... Dare I say it "wanabee" gangstas who think that tupac was the originator of RnB.

Its all down to the media.

Look at the high profile cases of paedophiles (or poofophiles as my gran calls them) - Thomas Hamilton, Gary Glitter, the guy who played Len Fairclough in corrie, several swimming coahces, Jonathon King, Ian Huntley and Matthew Kelly was investigated. ... Even Michael Jackson was not potrayed in anyway as "dodgy" when he was black.

David Baddiel said the infamous quote live on TV that "Matthew Kelly now looks like a paedophile since he shaved of his tash and beard"... It actually (and rare from David) got a good laughter from the audience cause they must have thought it too... Why? Cause he fitted the media influenced image.

Our images are influenced by the media... Dramas such as the bill generally keep to the stereotype, and the media also seem to apply more focus when the criminal fits the stereotype.. IMO its not rasist its just down to the impression the media potray. Have you noticed that not one ugly kid who goes missing makes the news - yet the stats for missing kids is huge. Media influence us so much, even if its subconciously.