tboy100 wrote:Sorry Axe gotta disagree on this one!
Here's the proof - Competition at Light Heavyweight alone.
Jones - Sosa, McCallum, Griffin, Hill, Del Valle, Grant, Frazier, Johnson, Telesco, Hall, Harding, Harman, Gonzalez, Kelly, Woods, Tarver, G Johnson.
Michalczewski - First top fighter he fought was Leeonzer Barber, then euro's Girad and Rocchigiani. Better comp then with Hill, Griffin, Hall, Harmon, Gonzalez, Tiozzo.
Some common opponents - *Hill. Jones - Big KO. Michalczewski - unanamous decision.
* Griffin. Jones - close scorecard DQ loss and a first rd stoppage win. Michalczewski - Was it a controversial stoppage? remember something going on, Michalczeski lost every round on the cards as well up to the fourth rd stoppage.
* Richard Hall. Jones - wins every round up to the tko. Michalczewski - Two tough one's for you my lad up to tko.
* Julio Gonzalez. Jones - Unanamous decision with knockdowns. Michalczeski - split decision loss.
* Derrick Harmon. Jones - beats a one loss Harmon in Tko11. Michalczewski - beats a three loss Harmon Ko9.
Out of this group with the exception of Hill, Jones was beating these guys before Michalczeski. Jones may have fought Frazier and Kelly, but look at some of Michalczewski's title defences, got to be around double digits
of people who wouldn't get a sniff of the ring top 10. F'ING SHOCKING!! I would of liked to see this fight, but you know it just wasn't gonna happen. Imagine if Michalszeski had past Marciano's magic mark, he would be a god in germany and a fraud in the real legend's of the boxing world. Are you listening to me sven ottke!!
That's my view anyway Axe.
Good to hear from someone who is up for a good debate.
Firstly, all the fuss about Hill's heel injury is simply bogus excuses...the fight was moved a month back because of it at Hill's request, so his heel was 100% and it threw DM's training camp off more than anything. Now let's analyze some of these fighters:
Jones - Sosa, McCallum, Griffin, Hill, Del Valle, Grant, Frazier, Johnson, Telesco, Hall, Harding, Harman, Gonzalez, Kelly, Woods, Tarver, G Johnson.
Michalczewski - First top fighter he fought was Leeonzer Barber, then euro's Girad and Rocchigiani. Better comp then with Hill, Griffin, Hall, Harmon, Gonzalez, Tiozzo.
First off, you immediately downplay Leeonzer Barber, who was a very good fighter...but Ill get to that in a bit.
Secondly, I don't have the time to get into all the Grant's and Kelly's, but we'll compare some of the bigger names you listed:
Virgil Hill: at 33 Hill still looked very good, in fact he logged his biggest career win right before fighting DM, a decision over IBF champ Henry Maske in Germany. Given the fact that Hill, nearly 10 years later, is still a top 6-7 cruiserweight and holds a piece of the 200 lb title, and repeated as champ in 1999, we now know that he had incredible longevity as a fighter and that at 33 he was therefore still in his prime against DM.
Jones beat Hill at 34 and the age wasnt that big a difference, and Jones did finish Hill in spectacular fashion, unlike DM. But the quality of fighter was significantly worse. Hill was coming directly off the loss to DM, as well as a year long layoff. Not only that, but Jones forced Hill to severely drain himself the day of the fight. (
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxingch ... s_rjj.html).
So Dm has a major edge here.
Montell Griffin: Jones loses one by DQ, he was turning the tide but the fact is he lost control of himself and fouled out, and at the time he was being outlanded and was landing at a lower % than Montell. The rematch was awesome, Jones' career best KO, but they ended off at 1-1 officially.
DM beat Griffin without any real controversy, the referee in that fight was Joe Cortez and he stopped it after DM landed fourteen unanswered shots when Griffin was stumbling around like he was drunk. Griffin had won the first 3 rounds, but DM won round 4, and DM was always a slow starter so that was nothing new at all. Griffin was 29 at the time, but DM was 31 and had taken more punishment than Griffin throughout his career...nevertheless both were still in their primes imo.
So again you would have to give DM the edge.
Hall, Harmon, and Gonzalez:
Roy has the edge here, but these fighters were a step down from the others listed, and it must be noted that Jones was still considered in his prime when he fought them, and DM was considerably past it, especially against Gonzalez.
Id say the first DM-Hall fight was a legit doctor's stoppage, as Hall's eye was completely closed, but the second one was controversial. Hall was a WBA interim champ and really strong, so a faded DM had trouble taking him out head-on (which made for the very entertaining 2 fights they had). A faded DM also beat Harmon with a broken thumb. But Jones absolutely dominated both of these guys, and so definitely has the edge here...as I said though, it doesnt really mean much.
Now Gonzalez was always a limited fighter. Jones basically beat him by 15 points. A prime DM wouldve beat Gonzo with ease, somethink like 10 rounds to 2; but he didnt have the talent or skill to box Julio's ears off from the outside, like Jones did, at any point in time...he would have always had to do it the hard way, toe to toe.
Still, the fact that Jones was in his prime and DM was shot when each fought Julio makes the comparison an invalid one.
Other notable wins:
Jones: Del Valle, McCallum, Johnson, Harding.
Well McCallum was 40 years old, so that win didn't mean a whole lot. And Harding was only a 19 fight novice, despite being rather skilled, so again that wasnt overly impressive, although I consider it a decent win...even though Eric gave Roy a very hard time.
Del Valle was a good win, despite having lost to Hill in a close tilt. Lou was coming off a layoff as well, however. R Johnson was s good win to, he had a rather nice streak of IBF defences going, but it should be noted that at that stage of his career Johnson was starting to slip, and as a natural middleweight, Roy (who has tested positive for being on the juice before) had a considerable size advantage there. (PS Im just having fun with some of the Roy fans with the juice comment).
DM: Barber, Rochigianni (x2), Girard (x2)
Now we get to Leeonzer Barber. He was a top 5 guy at the time and (unlike what you wrote) is certainly better than Harmon, Hall, and perhaps even the limited Gonzalez. Barber was literally the biggest 175 lber I have ever seen, built like a tank and standing at 6'3" he had all the physical advantages over DM (Im not exagerrating either, Barber makes Tarver look like a toothpick). He had an eleven week training camp with Manny Steward to get ready for DM and was an original Kronk gym fighter to boot.
DM beat him early on in DM's career, so that should definitely count for something.
Girard wasn't exactly a power puncher, but he had a good amateur career and was a well schooled boxer. He had beaten fellow euro contenders Michel, Obertan, and Akim Tafer--the amateur French heavyweight champ, more experienced than Girard at the time--who went on to be a successful EBU cruiserweight champ. 2 wins over Girard wasnt bad at all.
Rochigianni I think is also a class above most of Jones' opponents, he was a solid champ at 168 and at 175 he beat the mandatory that Jones never faced in Michael Nunn, and was (in the eyes of many) robbed in one of his fights with Maske.
So overall I give DM the edge at 175. I may be a little biased, but that's my honest opinion and Ive given my reasons for it.
Better guy than that by the looks of things.