BoxRec

evndrbsn wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:foreman blantley ducked jerry quarry. all the evidence is there. after quarry demolished murderous puncher shavers in one round.....forget it foreman wanted no part of him. foreman even admitted he ducked quarry.


- foreman had to fight frazier.....frazier was champion!!!!



foreman wouldnt fight quarry pre title......and wouldnt fight quarry when he was champion.

Nope, you are right. Foreman went on to defend against weaker, less deserving fighters than Quarry such as Norton and Ali. Good point

foreman was defintley greater than quarry and beat greater fighters than quarry.....BUT fact is foreman ducked quarry. he said it himself. he wanted no part of him. avoided jerry like a plague pre title

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:foreman blantley ducked jerry quarry. all the evidence is there. after quarry demolished murderous puncher shavers in one round.....forget it foreman wanted no part of him. foreman even admitted he ducked quarry.


- foreman had to fight frazier.....frazier was champion!!!!



foreman wouldnt fight quarry pre title......and wouldnt fight quarry when he was champion.

Nope, you are right. Foreman went on to defend against weaker, less deserving fighters than Quarry such as Norton and Ali. Good point

foreman was defintley greater than quarry and beat greater fighters than quarry.....BUT fact is foreman ducked quarry. he said it himself. he wanted no part of him. avoided jerry like a plague pre title

He was just talking up Quarry. Foreman says a lot of crap, don't believe all of it. If he told you he had a talking shoe named Ralph, would you consider that a fact also?

i know foreman said a lot of crap but actions speak for themselves. Quarry had easily beaten heavy punchers Lyle, Foster, and Shavers, so he had the right style to beat the crude big swinging Foreman. foreman didnt think he matched up well vs quarry.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i know foreman said a lot of crap but actions speak for themselves. Quarry had easily beaten heavy punchers Lyle, Foster, and Shavers, so he had the right style to beat the crude big swinging Foreman. foreman didnt think he matched up well vs quarry.

But yet he thought he matched up well against Ali?

evndrbsn wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i know foreman said a lot of crap but actions speak for themselves. Quarry had easily beaten heavy punchers Lyle, Foster, and Shavers, so he had the right style to beat the crude big swinging Foreman. foreman didnt think he matched up well vs quarry.

But yet he thought he matched up well against Ali?

Don't use logic against Brocky!

If he says Foreman thought Quarry was more of a threat than Ali then you should just accept it. Don't forget he knows Monte Cox AND the legendary Ted Spoon who between them have written more nonsense on boxing than the rest of us combined.

evndrbsn wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i know foreman said a lot of crap but actions speak for themselves. Quarry had easily beaten heavy punchers Lyle, Foster, and Shavers, so he had the right style to beat the crude big swinging Foreman. foreman didnt think he matched up well vs quarry.

But yet he thought he matched up well against Ali?

I don’t think Foreman avoided Quarry either, but I have no idea how you came to that statement based on what’s been posted. I’m sure George pretty much felt he was invincible prior to the Ali fight, but even IF he thought he couldn’t beat Ali, he would have fought him anyway because of the amount of $$ involved.

Based solely on his performance against Lyle, it’s logical to think that Quarry could have been a pretty difficult opponent for Foreman. He was an excellent counter puncher with a solid chin and good stamina. Quarry had problems with quick handed fighters like Ali and Frazier. George did not have great handspeed, so it’s pretty reasonable to envision a Quarry-Foreman fight looking much like Quarry-Lyle.

The Great John L wrote:

evndrbsn wrote:

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:i know foreman said a lot of crap but actions speak for themselves. Quarry had easily beaten heavy punchers Lyle, Foster, and Shavers, so he had the right style to beat the crude big swinging Foreman. foreman didnt think he matched up well vs quarry.

But yet he thought he matched up well against Ali?

I don’t think Foreman avoided Quarry either, but I have no idea how you came to that statement based on what’s been posted. I’m sure George pretty much felt he was invincible prior to the Ali fight, but even IF he thought he couldn’t beat Ali, he would have fought him anyway because of the amount of $$ involved.

Based solely on his performance against Lyle, it’s logical to think that Quarry could have been a pretty difficult opponent for Foreman. He was an excellent counter puncher with a solid chin and good stamina. Quarry had problems with quick handed fighters like Ali and Frazier. George did not have great handspeed, so it’s pretty reasonable to envision a Quarry-Foreman fight looking much like Quarry-Lyle.

I was trying to say that Foreman would have avoided Ali before ducking Quarry. Yes, George probably thought he was invincible. But still, its crazy to think that Foreman would have ducked Quarry in favor of taking on Ken Norton and Muhammad Ali. If George kept facing the King Roman's of the boxing world, then a point could be made that he was ducking somebody.

evndrbsn wrote:I was trying to say that Foreman would have avoided Ali before ducking Quarry. Yes, George probably thought he was invincible. But still, its crazy to think that Foreman would have ducked Quarry in favor of taking on Ken Norton and Muhammad Ali. If George kept facing the King Roman's of the boxing world, then a point could be made that he was ducking somebody.

Agreed.

well foreman saw the way he destroyed frazier and norton, and then after seeing norton and frazier beat ali......he thought it be easy. also the money price was so high.



but the most dangerous contenders in the division big powerful punches with similiar style to george........shavers, foster and lyle........were easily beaten by jerry quarry. george saw this as a sign of jerry quarry would be big problems for me seeing the way jerry was destroying men of similiar styles to foreman. foreman could have fought quarry pre title but he didnt and instead fought a bunch of ham and eggers

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:well foreman saw the way he destroyed frazier and norton, and then after seeing norton and frazier beat ali......he thought it be easy. also the money price was so high.



but the most dangerous contenders in the division big powerful punches with similiar style to george........shavers, foster and lyle........were easily beaten by jerry quarry. george saw this as a sign of jerry quarry would be big problems for me seeing the way jerry was destroying men of similiar styles to foreman. foreman could have fought quarry pre title but he didnt and instead fought a bunch of ham and eggers

Brocky, I agree with you that Quarry would have been a very tough nut to crack for George, and I also think that a Quarry upset of George would have been a strong possibility had they met. However, don’t you think George truly felt he was pretty much invincible prior to the Ali fight?

While it’s true that George could have fought Quarry prior to Frazier I, it was probably just sound management to steer George out of harms way before cashing in. Intelligent matchmaking (i.e., avoiding dangerous opponents) with top prospects is not a new concept, and I think there was a great deal of that going on throughout George’s career. In fact, the biggest question I would have about George was how his management allowed him to get in the ring against Jimmy Young. Maybe they just looked at his record and not his fights, but that fight was a case of extremely poor management on the Foreman team.

George’s second career is a model of how to manage a fighter’s career. Not too many risks taken during the buildup to the Holyfield fight, and even after that fight as George was steered towards another big $$ fight. Brilliant management that even helped to inflate everybody’s opinion of George’s skills and his place in history.

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Quarry wasn't a last minute substitution; and Norton barely had more time than Quarry did.

But Norton was planning on fighting on that date, while Quarry wasn’t. That’s a big difference. As you noted, Quarry fought about 30 days prior to this fight, but most likely wasn’t planning on fighting again so may have never set foot into a gym until he signed for the Norton fight. Do you think Quarry physically looked as good against Norton as he did in other fights that he did not take on short notice? I think most who have seen this fight would say he appeared to be soft and in much poorer shape than in his other fights.

John L- I guess that wed isagree with how much different Quarry was against Norton than he was in other fights. Let me try to explain my reasoning:
Quarry only weighed a few more pounds than he did in many of of his other fights. He had atleast one other fight when he weighed more.
We don't know for a fact that Quarry wasn't training in the 3 week period between his last fight and when he knew he would be fighting Norton; for all we know he was training.
It's doubtful that Gil Clancy ( a good trainer) would have taken the fight if Quarry wasn't in decent shape.
I have seen Quarry and Norton fight a lot and the result was about what I would have expected. You have seen them fight a lot as well; is a 5 round TKO win for Norton that suprising?

Ambling Alp wrote:John L- I guess that wed isagree with how much different Quarry was against Norton than he was in other fights. Let me try to explain my reasoning:
Quarry only weighed a few more pounds than he did in many of of his other fights. He had atleast one other fight when he weighed more.
We don't know for a fact that Quarry wasn't training in the 3 week period between his last fight and when he knew he would be fighting Norton; for all we know he was training.
It's doubtful that Gil Clancy ( a good trainer) would have taken the fight if Quarry wasn't in decent shape.
I have seen Quarry and Norton fight a lot and the result was about what I would have expected. You have seen them fight a lot as well; is a 5 round TKO win for Norton that suprising?

Gil Clancy was his trainer, not his manager. The trainer doesn’t usually arrange the fights, although I would expect the trainer has a great deal of input in these decisions. But I would expect a strong willed, confident athlete like Quarry to have the greatest influence on the manager when it comes to accepting fights.

I believe his weight for Norton was the heaviest he had ever been, except for the Newman fight. While Newman was certainly not a pushover, I’m sure he wouldn’t be regarded as the same type of risk as Ken Norton. Normally Quarry was right around 200 lbs. What matters most was that Quarry was visibly VERY soft for this fight, with quite a bit of flesh around the middle. This was quite apparent to everyone who watched the fight.

And yes, you are absolutely correct that we don’t know for sure that Quarry didn’t train between his previous fight and the call to fight Norton. But his physical appearance during the fight, as well as his total fatigue after 3 rounds supports this theory. I would also submit that his all out aggression was also a good indication, as he was probably trying to get Norton out prior to wearing out, which he probably knew would happen, since he wasn’t properly prepared.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Brocton has some major misconception regarding heavyweights from this era that I wanted to address:
He says that Ali and Holmes were lighthitting (which is why Norton did well against them). That simply isn't true. They didn't have the power of Foreman, but they both could punch. You don't have to look far for examples of this.
Yet neither could stop or even floor Norton.

He says that Quarry would stop norton in 5-7 rounds.
Quarry wasn't a big puncher. Although he had a couple of big blowout wins in his career, they were the rare exceptions.
With a couple of exceptions, Quarry was unable to stop quality opponents.
In fact quite often Quarry couldn't even stop mediocre opponents.

Willis Earls was 4-8-1 and had been stopped in 6 out of his previous 7 fights before he fought quarry. Yet he Quarry couldn't stop him.

Lou Bailey (career record of 16-34-5) went the distance with Quarry.
Dick Goshen (career record 11-19) went the distance with Quarry.
Scrap Iron Johnson (career record 20-25-2) twice went the distance with Quarry.
There weren't fights when Quarry was green or old.
Quarry stopped his opponent less in than half of his fights.

Yet we are supposed to believe that a "prime Quarry" would stop Norton (who was only stopped by Foreman in his prime) in 5-7 rounds?
In boxing almost anything is possible, but the chances of Quarry stopping Norton are very slim.

On the other hand Brockton downplays the chances of Norton stopping Quarry.
Well, Quarry was stopped 6 times in career, all within 7 rounds.
He was cut sometimes, hurt sometimes, knocked down by journeyman Joe Alexander.
As mentioned previously, Norton had shwon he can punch so it's probable that he could stop Quarry.
Quarry also isn't going to outbox norton. Norton boxed on even terms with Ali, and Young who were far better boxers than Quarry.

Brocton keeps dismissing the fact that Quarry was only 29 and says that Quarry was past his prime against Norton.
He uses Bowe against golota as an example of a young fighter being past his prime.
Well, most people do hold the Golota fights against Bowe. Often it's the first thing that people talk about when they talk about Bowe.
The Norton-Quarry fight should be factored in when evaluating Norton and Quarrry as well like the Golota fights are when evaluating Bowe's career.

Physcially, therereason that that reflexes, speed stamina, pwer etc arethe equal for a 29 year old heavyweight as they are for say a 25 or 26 year old heavyweight. When afighter gets up to say 32 or 33 (depending on the wear and tear his body has endured from perious fights) a heavyweight usually will then naturally start to decline.
Some fighters lose the desire to fight and/ or train before this, but physically a heavyweight isn't "past his Prime" when he is only 29.

As far as foreman ducking Quarry, it's almost beyond comprehension that Brockton would actually believe this.
He seems to realize that Archie Moore and others will say things that are total BS and knows not to take it seriously.
Why he can't figure out that Foreman often says silly things that most people know not to take seriously is puzzling.

The wins that Quarry and Shavers are mentioed as to why Foreman ducked him. Well, Foreman was better than Lyle in almost everyway. Shavers could punch as hard as Foreman, but he didn't have Foreman's chin and weas nearly as good of a finisher.

Why is the Foreman-Lyle fight used as proof against Foreman against Quarry. Foreman was coming off a 15 month layoff. If the out of shape excuse is legit for Qaurry against Norton, why isn't it brought up that foreman wasn't at his best aginst Lyle? And Foreman won his fight. He showed his guts and power and came back to knockout Lyle in the 5th.

If Foreman could destroy Frazier, he would have an easier time against Quarry. Frazier was better than Quarry in almost everyway.

I don't mean to attack Quarry; he was a good fighter. I just don't think some of the comments made previoulsy are well thought out.
He wasn't as good as Norton and doesn't match up well head to head, and he wasn't ducked by Foreman and would have crushed by him if they had fought.

Alp, that pretty much sums up all my thoughts on the topic as well. Great post.

Alp...I like your well supported arguements in this case. I have to agree with you on many of your points. When Quarry took Shavers out it was with quite a barrage and no single punch.....an early shot seemed to slow Shavers and it was followed by quite a high count of what looked to me like fairly flush shots without good defense on the part of Shavers that did the trick. A good win for Quarry no doubt. But not convincing evidence of great single shot power.

Quarry was a terrific fighter but would always struggle with Norton from what I've seen. I know no one wants to count Cooney or Shavers as evidence of Norton's "foldability" but I think it has to be considered as evidence that it took a certain "threshold" puncher to dispense with Norton otherwise he could hang with just about anyone. I.M.H.O.

BoxBuzz wrote:Quarry was a terrific fighter but would always struggle with Norton from what I've seen. I know no one wants to count Cooney or Shavers as evidence of Norton's "foldability" but I think it has to be considered as evidence that it took a certain "threshold" puncher to dispense with Norton otherwise he could hang with just about anyone. I.M.H.O.

Good observation, except there's also that JL Garcia fight as well. Garcia was also a good, but not great puncher, and he stopped Norton and dropped him a few times. Quarry was also a good and not great puncher, so I'd say he certainly had a chance. He did hurt Norton in their fight before running out of gas.

the fight you speak of could be considered early lessons in the game. Before he really arrived maybe? I know these days we are pretty unforgiving of any losses but in an earlier period that loss would have just been part of the "dues paying" aspect of the sport.

With regards to Norton versus Ali & Holmes. I always felt the reasons he performed against both so well was quiet simple neither were huge KO artists and Norton just had the style to take away their jabs (most of the time anyway).

BoxBuzz wrote:the fight you speak of could be considered early lessons in the game. Before he really arrived maybe? I know these days we are pretty unforgiving of any losses but in an earlier period that loss would have just been part of the "dues paying" aspect of the sport.

OIC. That one doesn’t count? Norton was 27, in his physical prime and was stopped by a so-so puncher. I know -- Norton got a late start in his career. So what? Quarry started fighting top guys at 22 and fought them in many difficult fights for a number of years. That’s part of the reason many would say he may have been on the decline against Norton. And Norton couldn’t knock Quarry down. I agree that Norton was a better fighter later in his career, but I doubt that his chin got tougher. Quarry certainly hit as hard as JL Garcia, so I think it’s pretty relevant to the discussion.

The comment I was responding to was that Norton only got stopped by the “elite” type punchers. I didn’t say this early loss severely tarnished Norton’s historical standing. Just that it showed he could be stopped by less than an elite puncher. Please explain why it wouldn’t count in reasoning that a prime Quarry may have been able to stop Norton.

BTW, I’m not the one hanging all opinions on a single fight between Norton and Quarry -- a fight that was taken on less than 10 days notice. I’m simply saying that a prime, well prepared Quarry would have had a good chance to beat Norton. It seems like everyone who disagrees with this is being to unforgiving of this single fight, taken on short notice, that took place near the end of Quarry’s competitive career.

I agree you can easily debate when a fighter’s prime is, but one indication is when a guy like Quarry, who beat a number of top ranked fighters, no longer beats top ranked fighters. By this definition, Quarry’s career was on the decline.

jerry quarry knocked ken norton out cold in sparring right before norton-ali I. quarry underestimated norton when he fought ken in 75.



quarry took the norton fight on late notice and showed up soft and way out of shape at 207lb. this was clearly not the vintage quarry in there. anyone who thinks norton beat a peak quarry needs to get there eyes checked. not only was quarry battle worn slowing down and past it by 1975.......to make matters worse he showed up overweight and out of shape!


1967-73 was the prime jerry quarry

BTW, I’m not the one hanging all opinions on a single fight between Norton and Quarry -- a fight that was taken on less than 10 days notice. I’m simply saying that a prime, well prepared Quarry would have had a good chance to beat Norton. It seems like everyone who disagrees with this is being to unforgiving of this single fight, taken on short notice, that took place near the end of Quarry’s competitive career.

I agree you can easily debate when a fighter’s prime is, but one indication is when a guy like Quarry, who beat a number of top ranked fighters, no longer beats top ranked fighters. By this definition, Quarry’s career was on the decline.

agreed. also quarry knocked out ken norton in sparring shortly before ali-norton I.



norton was always vunerable vs good fighters with punching power. even jose luis garcia flattened ken norton

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:jerry quarry knocked ken norton out cold in sparring right before norton-ali I. quarry underestimated norton when he fought ken in 75.



quarry took the norton fight on late notice and showed up soft and way out of shape at 207lb. this was clearly not the vintage quarry in there. anyone who thinks norton beat a peak quarry needs to get there eyes checked. not only was quarry battle worn slowing down and past it by 1975.......to make matters worse he showed up overweight and out of shape!


1967-73 was the prime jerry quarry

Sparring is not a totally accurate barometer of how a fight will go. Sparring is for working on moves and trying different things you might not try in a real fight. Say if a fighter has a weakness and wants to work it out in sparring he is not necsessarily trying to win the sparring match but maybe trying to correct some type of fault. For this reason he may be ineffective in a particular sparring session. I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in what goes on in the gym.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:jerry quarry knocked ken norton out cold in sparring right before norton-ali I. quarry underestimated norton when he fought ken in 75.



quarry took the norton fight on late notice and showed up soft and way out of shape at 207lb. this was clearly not the vintage quarry in there. anyone who thinks norton beat a peak quarry needs to get there eyes checked. not only was quarry battle worn slowing down and past it by 1975.......to make matters worse he showed up overweight and out of shape!


1967-73 was the prime jerry quarry

source please. and I hope, for your sake, it isn't another Ted Spoonerism.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:jerry quarry knocked ken norton out cold in sparring right before norton-ali I. quarry underestimated norton when he fought ken in 75.

Yes, and HarryGreb totally dominated Jack Dempsey in sparring (1921).

CBZ poster, Rick Farris, pointed out that he witnessed Jerry Quarry knockout Ken Norton in sparring before Ali-Norton I.