Monzon: The Greatest MW of all time? as told by Mike Casey

[SaadOffTheDeck]

They're in my top 5.

Langford/Greb
Robinson
Armstrong
Charles

[cfang]

They're in my top 5.

Langford/Greb
Robinson
Armstrong
Charles

[ClivePatrickLyons]

SRR is probably the greatest fighter of all time - its very close ofc between he, greb and langford as those 3 seem to always be the top guys when it comes to talking all time p4p on these forums. A very good friend of mine (sadly deceased) used to train at stillmans gym and saw robinson many times. he said he was the greatest fighter ever and its hard to disagree with that statement. However.......

Me saying that SRR was past his best as a middle is fact. He was unbeatable at welter - only la motta beat him he was so good and SRR avenged that. At middle he was ofc still incredible, amazing etc but he wasnt unbeatable - hence he lost a few to basillio, fullmer etc etc. So, by definition going from unbeatable to beatable if only rarely makes him past his best at Middle when he was older. I question this as being the dumbest thing ever said as its a) got basis in fact and b) we've recently had things like peeps saying a basketball player beats ali and joshua is the greatest heavy ever.

OK I probably over did it with the Dumbest thing quote I might own that and I can sort of see where you are coming from but you are the 1st person i'v ever heard say Robinson was past his best at Middleweight if he was then he is without doubt barr none TBE because some-one past their best don't win World Title's on 5 different occasion's at the same weight today with belt's flying left right and centre no-one can do it and When Robinson lost to La Motta to be fair it was really a Super Middleweight fighting a Jr Middleweight Robinson grew into the Middleweight class he fought at Lightweight when he started his pro career but I do see your point i'm not saying Robinson was a better welterweight or Middleweight
all i'm saying is that He was not past his best at Middleweight in my opinion he was past his best by the very late 50's and basketball players beating Ali well that's got to take the cake...yeah i'v been dethroned. SRR BEST WELTER/JR MIDDLE/MIDDLE EVER THATS MY VIEW

I've never heard anyone say that Robinson was prime at Middleweight.

I have

[ClivePatrickLyons]

They're in my top 5.

Langford/Greb
Robinson
Armstrong
Charles

Charles not in my top 5

[Kalan]

It seems most American Boxing fans ignore the soft touches some of their heroes fought... Along with ignoring Sugar Ray Robinson's poor record in title defenses

James Toney, Mike McCallum' Michael Nunn and Reggie Johnson do NOT appear on Marvin Hagler's Middleweight record -- because when these tough, strong, durable, skillful boxing, and hard punching Middleweights hit the scene Hagler quit at the young age of 32, after Ray Leonard beat him.. Hagler never fought great Middleweights of that caliber, but I could understand his reluctance... Those guys were extremely dangerous. Leonard, Hearns, and Duran ducked them as well.

After Leonard beat Hagler for the Middleweight Title, Ray's top Middleweight Challengers were Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, and Julian Jackson. Leonard abandoned the Middleweight Title---Canelo later did the same thing---and fought the unknown crude swinger Donny Lalonde.. Leonard was clever with this tactic.. He made Donny Lalonde boil down 7 pounds to 168 to weaken him.. Ray asked the orgs to recognize the fight as a "Duel World Title Fight" @ 175 and 168, so SRL could win 2 Divisional World Titles in one fight.. Lalonde decked Leonard early but was soon weak from dehydration.. Leonard took that 168-pound title and defended it at 160 against whoever he wanted... This was very clever of Ray.

Promoters still tried to match Ray Leonard with Michael Nunn or Mike McCallum... That's when SRL spotted a glass-chinned guy—Terry Norris—at 154... Norris had been brutally knocked cold by hard punching Julian Jackson, but Norris easily trounced Ray Leonard every round and beat him easily. SRL then quit Boxing at the relatively young age of 34... Now Gennady Golovkin is also 34 guys... If GGG tried to retire at 34 everybody in the American Media would question his character... It seemed fine for Leonard and Hagler to quit Boxing at a young age when very tough and highly skilled Middleweights hit scene

Monzon at 14-0 in World Title Defenses and didn't retire until he beat every viable contender. Marv and Ray took a powder when they lost.

[Like a Boss]

Read this well written article by Mike Casey, I find myself in agreement with Mike. Study the films, raise your awareness. There may be a test.

Shotgun Monzon: The greatest middleweight I have seen....

MIKE CASEY is a boxing journalist and historian, a member of the International Boxing Research Organization and founder and editor of The Grand Slam Premium Boxing Service for boxing historians and fans. (http://www.grandslampage.net)

Printed Casey's article and read it last night. Very good read and didn't see much I disagree with. Nice

[SaadOffTheDeck]

They're in my top 5.

Langford/Greb
Robinson
Armstrong
Charles

Charles not in my top 5

Cool

[cfang]

Usual rubbish. Hagler/ Leonard was in 1987, Toney didn't even have his first fight til Oct 1988 - Hagler clearly ducked him LOL

It seems most American Boxing fans ignore the soft touches some of their heroes fought... Along with ignoring Sugar Ray Robinson's poor record in title defenses

James Toney, Mike McCallum' Michael Nunn and Reggie Johnson do NOT appear on Marvin Hagler's Middleweight record -- because when these tough, strong, durable, skillful boxing, and hard punching Middleweights hit the scene Hagler quit at the young age of 32, after Ray Leonard beat him.. Hagler never fought great Middleweights of that caliber, but I could understand his reluctance... Those guys were extremely dangerous. Leonard, Hearns, and Duran ducked them as well.

After Leonard beat Hagler for the Middleweight Title, Ray's top Middleweight Challengers were Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, and Julian Jackson. Leonard abandoned the Middleweight Title---Canelo later did the same thing---and fought the unknown crude swinger Donny Lalonde.. Leonard was clever with this tactic.. He made Donny Lalonde boil down 7 pounds to 168 to weaken him.. Ray asked the orgs to recognize the fight as a "Duel World Title Fight" @ 175 and 168, so SRL could win 2 Divisional World Titles in one fight.. Lalonde decked Leonard early but was soon weak from dehydration.. Leonard took that 168-pound title and defended it at 160 against whoever he wanted... This was very clever of Ray.

Promoters still tried to match Ray Leonard with Michael Nunn or Mike McCallum... That's when SRL spotted a glass-chinned guy—Terry Norris—at 154... Norris had been brutally knocked cold by hard punching Julian Jackson, but Norris easily trounced Ray Leonard every round and beat him easily. SRL then quit Boxing at the relatively young age of 34... Now Gennady Golovkin is also 34 guys... If GGG tried to retire at 34 everybody in the American Media would question his character... It seemed fine for Leonard and Hagler to quit Boxing at a young age when very tough and highly skilled Middleweights hit scene

Monzon at 14-0 in World Title Defenses and didn't retire until he beat every viable contender. Marv and Ray took a powder when they lost.

[Kalan]

It doesn't matter... McCallum, Nunn, and Graham were around when Hagler was trying to get a rematch with Ray Leonard... Hagler didn't want to fight those guys... If he stuck around for as long as GGG is going to fight, Toney would have been there too.. Carlos Monzon fought 100 fights..

Sugar Ray Leonard was ducking Michael Nunn when he fought Terry Norris... I think the Toney-Nunn fight was shortly after that, but Hearns and Duran stiff fought for years after that and were also fighting very select opponents.

[cfang]

Of course it matters, you got your facts completely wrong! Hagler ducking a guy who hadnt even turned pro!

Hagler turned pro in 1973 and had like 67 fights. GGG has had half the fights and nowhere near the quality of opponent.

Also he didn't duck Graham - its an insult to one of the greatest middleweights of all time to say he ducked a guy who never even won the world title despite having chances - surely you cant believe hagler was scared to fight herol graham?

Trying to make out Marvin Hagler didnt have a good quality of opp when considering he went undefeated for a decade and beat every major middle of his era oh and ofc he was undisputed champion is just silly.

It doesn't matter... McCallum, Nunn, and Graham were around when Hagler was trying to get rematch with Ray Leonard... Hagler didn't want to fight those guys... If he stuck around for as long as GGG is going to fight, Toney would have been there too.. Carlos Monzon fought 100 fights..

Sugar Ray Leonard was ducking Michael Nunn when he fought Terry Norris... I think the Toney-Nunn fight was shortly after that, but Hearns and Duran stiff fought for years after that and were also fighting very select opponents.

[Kalan]

Damned right Hagler was reluctant to fight Graham... He fought once a year in 1985, 1986, and 1987 and Graham went to 38-0 and number one contender at one time.. I know Graham got flattened by Julian Jackson and beaten by McCallum, but he still went to 38-0 and the top ranking.

[Kalan]

You can't say Hagler's opponents were better than Golovkin's.. Duran was a pudgy ex-lightweight who fought at bantamweight to lightweight for 64 fights... He was no threat... Hearns was a wide open chinny guy who also got knocked out by Leonard and Barkley before he reached 30... Leonard was a good boxer but he was coming off a 3-year-layoff when he beat Hagler... All the other guys Hagler fought were inept as Hell compared to the to the top Middleweights who are currently ducking GGG and who be huge underdogs if they dared get into a ring with him.

[cfang]

All the other guys hagler fought were inept as hell??? Showing your total lack of proper knowledge here - so bennie briscoe and minter and sibson and roldan and mugabi and finnigan and hamsho etc etc were inept? Thats thing youre missing. Pretty much every time he fought as champ he fought the number 1 guy - GGG has never fought the number 1 guy ever. As a matter of interest, Joshua is yet to fight anyone inside the top 20!!!!!! boxrec has this current no hoper at 21 and you rate him the best ever - its a joke a total joke!

You can't say Hagler's opponents were better than Golovkin's.. Duran was a pudgy ex-lightweight who fought at bantamweight to lightweight for 64 fights... He was no threat... Hearns was a wide open chinny guy who also got knocked out by Leonard and Barkley before he reached 30... Leonard was a good boxer but he was coming off a 3-year-layoff when he beat Hagler... All the other guys Hagler fought were inept as Hell compared to the to the top Middleweights who are currently ducking GGG and who be huge underdogs if they dared get into a ring with him.

[Kalan]

All the other guys hagler fought were inept as hell??? Showing your total lack of proper knowledge here - so bennie briscoe and minter and sibson and roldan and mugabi and finnigan and hamsho etc etc were inept? Thats thing youre missing. Pretty much every time he fought as champ he fought the number 1 guy - GGG has never fought the number 1 guy ever. As a matter of interest, Joshua is yet to fight anyone inside the top 20!!!!!! boxrec has this current no hoper at 21 and you rate him the best ever - its a joke a total joke!

You can't say Hagler's opponents were better than Golovkin's.. Duran was a pudgy ex-lightweight who fought at bantamweight to lightweight for 64 fights... He was no threat... Hearns was a wide open chinny guy who also got knocked out by Leonard and Barkley before he reached 30... Leonard was a good boxer but he was coming off a 3-year-layoff when he beat Hagler... All the other guys Hagler fought were inept as Hell compared to the to the top Middleweights who are currently ducking GGG and who be huge underdogs if they dared get into a ring with him.

You've GOT to be KIDDING!!! John Mugabi???? LMFAO!!! Terry Norris smashed Mugabi out in the FIRST ROUND!!! And don't tell me Mugabi was washed up because he won his only World Title AFTER Duane Thomas knocked him out in 3 rounds and beat him 3 X EASIER than Hagler beat him... Mugabi went on a tear---an 11-fight winning streak, but the super fast Terry Norris blasted Mugabi out like it was NOTHING!!! ... That was no fluke for Norris either... Terry beat the living shlt out of Sugar Ray Leonard, and boxed Ray to death... Ray Leonard, as you know, finished off Marvin Hagler's career ... by coming off a 3-year-layoff to whip Hagler pretty good.

[Kalan]

Besides being ring rusty... Leonard had NEVER FOUGHT at Middleweight before in his LIFE... Ray's pervious fight was as a Welterweight.

[Kalan]

Excuse me...but I don't think Briscoe, Minter, Sibson, Roldan, Mugabi, Finnigan, and Hamsho held a candle to: Mike McCallum... Michael Nunn... James Toney... Harol Graham... Julian Jackson... or Reggie Johnson... Hagler never had to fight Middleweights of that high caliber.

Julian Jackson might have been fairly easy to hit...but he did cold-cock Harol Graham and Terry Norris, 2 skilled and shifty boxers.

[Cutman Scabbers]

Bennie Briscoe vs. Carlos Monzon

33:53 -- Briscoe has Monzon hurt badly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLvQBmmbgVE

[Kalan]

That's a good video but those guys weren't devastating 1-punch KO guys... If you got careless with Rodrigo Valdez, forget it... Here's his sensational KO over Bad Benny Briscoe... Go to 1:28/3:40 of the video and see tough guy Briscoe gets cracked out with a devastating left hook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujf3ld5HhcA

[Cutman Scabbers]

That's a good video but those guys weren't devastating 1-punch KO guys... If you got careless with Rodrigo Valdez, forget it... Here's his sensational KO over Bad Benny Briscoe... Go to 1:28/3:40 of the video and see tough guy Briscoe gets cracked out with a devastating left hook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujf3ld5HhcA

Good video -- big counter right!

Still, Valdez landed multiple rights before the big finisher, so can you
really say that was one-punch power (not accumulation of blows)?

Also: Briscoe was up quickly -- still unsteady, but up.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

All the other guys hagler fought were inept as hell??? Showing your total lack of proper knowledge here - so bennie briscoe and minter and sibson and roldan and mugabi and finnigan and hamsho etc etc were inept? Thats thing youre missing. Pretty much every time he fought as champ he fought the number 1 guy - GGG has never fought the number 1 guy ever. As a matter of interest, Joshua is yet to fight anyone inside the top 20!!!!!! boxrec has this current no hoper at 21 and you rate him the best ever - its a joke a total joke!

You can't say Hagler's opponents were better than Golovkin's.. Duran was a pudgy ex-lightweight who fought at bantamweight to lightweight for 64 fights... He was no threat... Hearns was a wide open chinny guy who also got knocked out by Leonard and Barkley before he reached 30... Leonard was a good boxer but he was coming off a 3-year-layoff when he beat Hagler... All the other guys Hagler fought were inept as Hell compared to the to the top Middleweights who are currently ducking GGG and who be huge underdogs if they dared get into a ring with him.

Hagler had a better resume than ggg before he fought for the title. Then he took an all time robbery and ignored his supreme boxing skills to avoid judges. Golovkin is my fav current fighter, but he's never sniffed an opponent like watts, Monroe, Hart or old briscoe.

[Kalan]

BULLCRAP!!! Little Vito Antuofermo wouldn't have lasted a round with Gennady Golovkin... Monroe would have exited much faster than his more talented nephew against Golovkin -- because he was beaten 10 times and knocked cold 4 times.. He didn't have a chin or the amateur pedigreed of his brilliant nephew Willie Monroe -- who the Worm said was better and predicted his nephew would out-slick and beat Golovkin.

Marvin Hagler couldn't put a dent in an old doddering Bad Benny Briscoe... But a puncher like Rodrigo Valdez BLASTED OUT a young Briscoe!!!

Click this video at 1:28/3:40 to see KILLER KO of youthful Bad Benny Briscoe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujf3ld5HhcA

[cfang]

Your whole way of comparing the merits of one fighter to another is fundimentally flawed.

So Hagler couldnt put away briscoe but Valdez did so hagler wasnt as good? Ali was rubbish cos he couldn't put away Spinks. Mugabi was rubbish cos duane thomas stopped him etc etc. You just cant base the merits of fights on that, this isn't form like in horse racing. Maybe Hagler would have beaten Briscoe on pts 100 times out of 100 as thats what he wanted to do - maybe Valdez could only find that huge punch once. Ali was a shell of the man in the 60s when he fought Spinks, Mugabi had the stuffing totally knocked out of him by Hagler and was never the same again really. He put on weight and lost that invincible air.

There are two things wrong with your method of comparing fighters - you take one result only and base everything on that ignoring the circumstances around it and you also you don't consider the possibility that the same man can be half as good in one contest as another depending on a variety of factors. Hagler is one of the greatest fighters of all time and GGG cannot be considered in the same league until hes walked the walk against top guys. He may well be that good - but until he does it we wont know.

BULLCRAP!!! Little Vito Antuofermo wouldn't have lasted a round with Gennady Golovkin... Monroe would have exited much faster than his more talented nephew against Golovkin -- because he was beaten 10 times and knocked cold 4 times.. He didn't have a chin or the amateur pedigreed of his brilliant nephew Willie Monroe -- who the Worm said was better and predicted his nephew would out-slick and beat Golovkin.

Marvin Hagler couldn't put a dent in an old doddering Bad Benny Briscoe... But a puncher like Rodrigo Valdez BLASTED OUT a young Briscoe!!!

Click this video at 1:28/3:40 to see KILLER KO of youthful Bad Benny Briscoe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujf3ld5HhcA

[SaadOffTheDeck]

As much as he screams about fighters that were never knocked out. Hagler was never hurt.

[BoxBuzz]

As much as he screams about fighters that were never knocked out. Hagler was never hurt.

You are about to be given the gift you have been looking for Saad. He's going to tell you just how close Hagler was to being KO'd by Hearns, but was able to fool us all into thinking he was ok.

By the way, I honestly think Hearns broke a bone at a critical time, and thus cushioned the shot that almost took Hagler out.
I'm serious, I think it may have been a freak of physics. I have no way of proving it, but the idea that Hearns hitting something as Hard as Hagler's head would result in about the same thing as Hearns hitting a solid concrete wall sounds about right to me.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

As much as he screams about fighters that were never knocked out. Hagler was never hurt.

You are about to be given the gift you have been looking for Saad. He's going to tell you just how close Hagler was to being KO'd by Hearns, but was able to fool us all into thinking he was ok.

By the way, I honestly think Hearns broke a bone at a critical time, and thus cushioned the shot that almost took Hagler out.
I'm serious, I think it may have been a freak of physics. I have no way of proving it, but the idea that Hearns hitting something as Hard as Hagler's head would result in about the same thing as Hearns hitting a solid concrete wall sounds about right to me.

Alas, I have him on ignore so any direct responses go unread. Since he dominates every forum and gets quoted constantly I scan some of his nonsense. Like I just noticed that evidently Leonard never fought Marcos Geraldo.

I think the hand injury that foiled Tommy's chances against Marvin was in 81 or 82. Motor City Cobra would have had a better chance than the Hitman and if Marvin gave him the respect he gave Duran for his first 'super fight' he maybe could have outboxed him.