Cooper/Ali(Clay)

[Brutu]

As far as first hand eye-witness accounts that were actually there and said there was
"a few minutes" delay:

1.)Henry Cooper(boxer)
2.)Angelo Dundee(trainer)
3.)Teddy Brenner(MSG matchmaker,who was at ringside next to Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton)

and the first hand eye witness's at the fight who said there was either no delay or just a 2 to 5 second delay
(hardly to be even called a delay)were?
please list them below.

[Controversial]

Im a realist,I personally do not think there was a 10 minute delay.
Probably more like 2 to 3 minutes from the time Ali got off the canvas
until the bell rang to begin the Fifth round.

But explain why would they bother to cover it up, what would they gain, seriously it makes no sense can't you see that?

[Brutu]

Im not a Psychiatrist,but my guess would be,
Because they all hate their own parents.

[Controversial]

John Rawling writes: Our 'Enry was undoubtedly something of a national treasure, but the story regarding the supposed splitting of the glove by Angelo Dundee – happily corroborated by Henry in his second career as an after-dinner speaker – was a mischievous manipulation of the truth which allowed Dundee to paint himself as the master trainer who pulled a stroke to help young Cassius Clay survive the knockdown.

For his part, Henry was only too happy to acquiesce to a tale which added to the legend of 'Enry's 'Ammer, which so nearly defeated the heavyweight who would ultimately be recognised as the greatest of all time.

In reality, analysis of the television recording and the radio broadcast, which survives in its entirety, reveals a somewhat more prosaic truth. Dundee did indeed call the referee to his corner to inspect Clay's glove, but the referee made no instruction for the glove to be changed and instead ruled that the contest could continue. The minute's interval was not stretched by 66 seconds, as some tales had it, but actually lasted a little longer than 66 seconds in total.

The matter was pointed out to me by the respected commentator and journalist Reg Gutteridge, who died in 2009, and was at ringside reporting the fight. It was supported by the first-hand accounts of those who were there and by Simon Smith's famous BBC radio commentary. The fact is that the glove incident was an embellishment of the truth that has entered sporting mythology as fact.

[Brutu]

and John Rawlin's expertise is in?
his opinion and a dime will get him a cup of coffee.

[Controversial]

link deleted

[Brutu]

Did you read the side bar article by Hugh Crook?

"Dundee was told to fetch another pair from the dressing room,
Which gave Clay precious extra minutes to recover from 'Enry's assault".
and
"Enry's camp rekon the delay lasted several minutes"

Those are direct quotes from the Wednesday June 19 1963 edition of THE SUN.
Proof that the story did not get bigger over time.

BTW Thank you for supplying us with some Primary evidence
that gives creedence to Sir Henry Cooper's version which he maintained over the years.
'

[Controversial]

Did you read the side bar article by Hugh Crook?

"Dundee was told to fetch another pair from the dressing room,
Which gave Clay precious extra minutes to recover from 'Enry's assault".
and
"Enry's camp rekon the delay lasted several minutes"

Those are direct quotes from the Wednesday June 19 1963 edition of THE SUN.
Proof that the story did not get bigger over time.

BTW Thank you for supplying us with some Primary evidence
that gives creedence to Sir Henry Cooper's version which he maintained over the years.
'

Actually my mistake, that link to The Sun is fake, the paper didn't exist in 1963, first edition was in 1969. From the website "Most of the Sun pages never really appeared in the paper . . . we've only been around since 1969, after all! But we hope you find them fun, and informative too. This home page has just a few examples"

[Brutu]

Those still look like genuine newspaper clippings on the cover to me.
My guess is that those were from the DAILY HERALD(1912-1964)
which "re-formatted and re-named THE SUN in 1964.
(sold to Rupert Murdoch in 1969).

[Controversial]

Those still look like genuine newspaper clippings on the cover to me.
My guess is that those were from the DAILY HERALD(1912-1964)
which "re-formatted and re-named THE SUN in 1964.
(sold to Rupert Murdoch in 1969).

That's it, you clutch at straws, why don't you ask Hugh Crook aka huge crook

[Brutu]

I knew that was a phoney newspaper cover anyway.
Everyone knowsThe SUN didn't have colour covers to it in the 1960's.
When will someone actually post some real English newspaper accounts of the fight
from back then?

[Brutu]

Here is the chapter on Henry Cooper from the book FACING ALI by Stephen Brunt(2002).
pp 25-46.


http://books.google.com/books?id=BKDKNU ... pg=PA25&dq

[Controversial]

Here is the chapter on Henry Cooper from the book FACING ALI by Stephen Brunt(2002).
pp 25-46.


http://books.google.com/books?id=BKDKNU ... pg=PA25&dq

More myths from Cooper, apparently Ali had a 90 inch reach, lol

[BoxBuzz]

quick reality check here purely for my benefit, so I can keep track.

Is there ANYONE on this thread who asserts/believes that there was anything more than a 66 second break (in total) between rounds directly after Cooper knocked down Clay?

Just want to know if someone/anyone is harboring a doubt on this and on what empirical evidence such doubt is based.

[evrenb]

It WAS 66 secs as I have seen the original film...

[Controversial]

quick reality check here purely for my benefit, so I can keep track.

Is there ANYONE on this thread who asserts/believes that there was anything more than a 66 second break (in total) between rounds directly after Cooper knocked down Clay?

Just want to know if someone/anyone is harboring a doubt on this and on what empirical evidence such doubt is based.

Yes Brutu is in denial, apparently the American press is fake, the video footage has been edited and the word from the people at the fight is untrue.

[Brutu]

It WAS 66 secs as I have seen the original film...

What do the opening or closing credits read?
Who produced it and was involved in the production?

[HomicideHenry]

I do know that history often repeats itself and it did almost 30 years to the day that Ali fought Cooper, when Tyson fought Thomas and Dundee was in his corner. A 'ripped glove' occured and a new one had to be brought to ringside. Time between rounds was something like an extra additional minute. Didn't make a difference though as Tyson stopped Thomas in the next round.

[Brutu]

quick reality check here purely for my benefit, so I can keep track.

Is there ANYONE on this thread who asserts/believes that there was anything more than a 66 second break (in total) between rounds directly after Cooper knocked down Clay?

Just want to know if someone/anyone is harboring a doubt on this and on what empirical evidence such doubt is based.

Im just saying,That fight received a lot of attention in England.
All anyone has to do is gather up all the British newspaper accounts that had been done by the reporters
who were sent to Wembley to cover the fight for the newspapers that they worked for and that were published the next day when the event just happened .
Why is this so difficult for anyone to do there?

[Brutu]

quick reality check here purely for my benefit, so I can keep track.

Is there ANYONE on this thread who asserts/believes that there was anything more than a 66 second break (in total) between rounds directly after Cooper knocked down Clay?

Just want to know if someone/anyone is harboring a doubt on this and on what empirical evidence such doubt is based.

I will consider it if Evenb produces and downloads on youtube
the original televised film/video(that includes the credits
of whichever show it was shown on originally in Britain).

[Controversial]

It WAS 66 secs as I have seen the original film...

What do the opening or closing credits read?
Who produced it and was involved in the production?

Im just saying,That fight received a lot of attention in England.
All anyone has to do is gather up all the British newspaper accounts that had been done by the reporters
who were sent to Wembley to cover the fight for the newspapers that they worked for and that were published the next day when the event just happened .
Why is this so difficult for anyone to do there?

If it's so easy you track it down, your the one who wants more proof. It's hard enough to track down UK newspapers covering the Vietnam war, that does't mean it never happened though. You can buy copies of the newspapers online for £25 if your that interested.

http://www.historic-newspapers.co.uk/Or ... per-Titles

Your fascination about wanting proof of the production team and copies of the papers is bizarre, like it was some weird conspiracy theory and cover up. As I said before why would the UK press cover it up?

[Brutu]

Anyway I can never figure out what the big deal was about a couple of minutes delay.
Seems to me the real controversy should probably be the smelling salts his corner used,
which Im sure they knew or were told beforehand were illegal to use in Britain.
Were smelling salts or ammonia capsules still legal to use in America in 1963?

[Brutu]

It WAS 66 secs as I have seen the original film...

What do the opening or closing credits read?
Who produced it and was involved in the production?

Im just saying,That fight received a lot of attention in England.
All anyone has to do is gather up all the British newspaper accounts that had been done by the reporters
who were sent to Wembley to cover the fight for the newspapers that they worked for and that were published the next day when the event just happened .
Why is this so difficult for anyone to do there?

If it's so easy you track it down, your the one who wants more proof. It's hard enough to track down UK newspapers covering the Vietnam war, that does't mean it never happened though. You can buy copies of the newspapers online for £25 if your that interested.

http://www.historic-newspapers.co.uk/Or ... per-Titles

Your fascination about wanting proof of the production team and copies of the papers is bizarre, like it was some weird conspiracy theory and cover up. As I said before why would the UK press cover it up?

Did you read the Ali vrs Liston I alternative footage thread?
Dont you think it would be useful to have studied
the fight from another camera angle rather then the same old closed-circuit television video-tape
thats been seen a million times?
That was a historic fight.

[Giancarlo]

Brutu, you were a HUGE believer in the authenticity of the Jack Dempsey vs Jack Johnson "secret fight" up in Canada weren't you?

[evrenb]

quick reality check here purely for my benefit, so I can keep track.

Is there ANYONE on this thread who asserts/believes that there was anything more than a 66 second break (in total) between rounds directly after Cooper knocked down Clay?

Just want to know if someone/anyone is harboring a doubt on this and on what empirical evidence such doubt is based.

I will consider it if Evenb produces and downloads on youtube
the original televised film/video(that includes the credits
of whichever show it was shown on originally in Britain).

That may take a long time as it is on VHS and i have no facilities to convert.....im sorry. If you dont believe then fair enough...i have told you what I know...