BoxRec

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
Before I continue this debate I'll mention I dislike Delahoya as a person so don't mistake me to be biased.

I too think Leonard beats DLH but KOs him? I doubt it Oscars chins good and hes not an unskilled punch bag who can't punch back fast and skillfully because he can.

DLH versus Duran is a similar match up to Duran-SRL and in essence would be a close match up that could go either way.

Heres a match up I haven't heard mentioned - Mayweather versus Benitez - I'd pick Mayweather - similar fighters but Mayweathers overall better - who'd you pick? Now bare in mind you pick DLH to beat Mayweather, you pick Duran to maul Delahoya, yet Bentiez beat Duran. I know styles make fights but.............

Also why do Durans defeats get a pass yet DLHS don't? Duran is great and was in deep water over 135 where he was maybe the best but at 147 and above he had size limitations.

Anyway James why on so late, don't usually see you on here past 5:30???

Thanks PN, you've been a solid back bone in this arguement - it mainly only me.

Duran loses were to greats ..... blah blah blah - when Duran gets beat badly he was out of shape... blah blah blah. Heard that one a million times.

DLH losses were to Hopkins, Trinidad and Mosley. Oh such shite fighters - don't hold a touch to the likes of Estaben De Jesus and Thomas Hearns. ALL of DLH's losses were close even the Hopkins fight was close on the cards at the time of the stoppage and he was over his weight limit. DLH has come in in bad shape in the past (of course not the same as Duran granted) but he still ground a win, although some people questionned the Sturm decision, it was still not an embarring job that Duran has had.

Leonard doesn't get the credit he deserves for the Duran rematch, the Duranites always harp on about his condition. He was in so bad shape that he still made the weight limit comfortably enough. Nobody for one minute might think Leonard went after viewing his first fight "oh shit, why did I fight his style of fight" - why didn't I test his legs speed at 147 - I'll do that next time. For me the closeness of fight 1 when Duran was in shape and Leonard fought the completely wrong gameplan indicates to me who would win at least 7 out of 10 times in a rematch.

Lets not forget, I never said would Duran beat DLH at 147 - I said would he beat this experienced veteran who had put in 4 top displays at 154. The higher the weight the more it would suit DLH and at 154 Duran would be too slow to OUTCLASS him. He might wear him down ala what Hopkins did - but OUTCLASS him no. Indeed at 154 I think I would favour DLH.

I think Leonard is the greatest of them all, and I think Leonard would definately beat DLH at 154, 147, or any other weight - never knock him out! Jesus, Tito Trinidad and Shane Mosley couldn't do that - both much bigger punchers than Leonard. Leonard is better no doubt, but if the likes of Kalule can have their moments - then so can DLH. I cannot remember Leonard facing anyone of DLH's handspeed (not saying it is superior to Ray's cause its not).

I may misrepresent you but likewise when you have just done me.

I did not ever say Napoles wouldn't cope with DLH - I said there is NO WAY Napoles would destroy DLH and outclass him (something which I interpreted you said). Do I think DLH would beat Napoles yes.... Do I think DLH should be ranked ahead of Napoles yes.... Would I be responding to a thread that suggested Napoles would sneak past DLH and should be ranked slightly above him, No.... Would I be respond to a post that suggested Napoles is a good deal better than DLH, Yes - cause I think its open to debate - but not a closed deal like the way I continue to interpret your views on the two fighters.

Yes, I did say that about Iran vs Duran and did say that about DLH vs Mayorga. However, the thing you didn't interpret from my post is that I was talking about the manner of the respective wins also. Duran had a struggle, it could have gone either way- although I thought Duran just done enough I do think (and maybe I am wrong) I am in the minority - certainly on the US forums I have been on.... No one can doubt the manner of DLH's win over Mayorga. Again with Vargas, DLH showed tremendous heart to come back from behind and not leave it in the judges hands - he outstrengthed the stronger man.

I'm not sure what the James Toney references has to do with any of this..... Thats no more than me saying look Vargas and Mayorga brought the best out of Trinidad also - not what that brings to the table.To be fair, although it was a great achievement considering how written off and old he was. I don't think the Barkley performance ranks among Duran's best - you can practicularly chose any of his Lightweight defences, the Davey Moore masacre, Leonard one, Honourable Hagler defeat - all better than the Barkley fight in terms of performance.

Gatti reference? Please enlighten me, cannot remember when I talked about this in this context - have done in past threads but not relating. I have been critical of Floyds time at 140, and haven't mentioned the DLH fight with Gatti for a while.

As for Oscar's fights with Hopkins - okay if you saw it like that. I saw it differently, Oscar fought the wrong tactics - tried to take it to Hopkins, couldn't do so although was possibly leading at the time of the stoppage - so in the last few rounds tried to box, but at that stage had probably been weakend. I will make a reference to Gatti now - his performance was quite similar to Gatti's loss to Baldomir- don't think you can really disbute either DLH's or Gatti's ambition and belief to win the fight.

I don't mind debating the Mosley rematch with you... cause I disagree with your main arguement that he faded. He looked bad in the 9th no doubt- but he old man his way to win more of the last rounds than he lost IMO (and I think the opinion of the majority - even the non fans). I have seen the big "fade" in the Trinidad fight, and untill he landed the shot to end Oba Carr it was evident there (oh and Hopkins naturally). Thats it though. He came on strong vs Vargas, came on strong vs Sturm (bulled it out of the bag) and for me he might have been more tired than Mosley, but I thought he won more rounds than he lost from 10-12 (I had it 2-1 to Oscar, cannot remember which round I thought Mosley won). Oscar won that fight easily.

I only hope that in twenty years time everyones attitude will change on this generations greats.

I must say I'm looking forward to Marquez/Vazquez more than this.

Andy Mac wrote:

shoutout2u wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Why are many here calling Mayweather a weight hopper when he dominated an excellent 130lbs division - beating long standing champ Gernaro Hernandez who probably wasnt' far off P4P status, Mayweather-Corrales was 1 and 2 squaring off in the division (Corrales also been a belt holder). Chavez went on to be a 2 weight champ, Manfredy was probably a top5 level fighter, Vargas was an ex-feather champ, C Hernandez would become a champ. Thats a mighty impressive Super-Feather reign and the way he dominated them all puts it right up there. No doubt if he stayed at 130 he would have beat all comers chewing up MAB, Morales and Pac. He also even tried to make a fight with Hamed at a 128 catch weight?

So should Mayweather have spent his career at 130? Preying on the smaller MAB and the similar sized Pacman and Morales?

Whats would be better beating MAB, Morales, Pacman at 130 or beating the 135 king, becoming the king at 147 and beating mcuher bigger great DLH? Remember Mayweather would have fought Cotto, Hatton, Tyszu if deals were made for those fights, he certainly didnt avoid those fights as he made offers for both Hatton and Cotto and wanted tyszu but supposedly asked for money Tyszus team werent willing to offer.

solid take, PN!! you seem to have more appreciation for PBF than most here in the british forum!!

That might well be due to the fact that most Brits are not as easily impressed as our American counterparts. We dont just accept what people want us to believe, we prefer evidence. Try reading the 5th paragraph in James' post above, and you might get some idea on where a lot of British fans stand.

not surprising...nationalism is alive and well, not only in america and britain, but every other country on earth!! you see just as many yank skeptics regarding brit stars like hatton and calzaghe!! the only place i ever see P-N posting is here in brit forum, so he gets props as one of few brits who appreciates PBF and my respect only increases because he backs it up with GOOD REASONING!!

Andy Mac wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I've always suspected that there are plenty of fighters at 154 who could have given Oscar fits, I never believed that Oscar or Mosley were the top men at 154, no more than Leonard and Duran were the top 168 lbers when they fought, despite the fact the fight was for the WBC super middle title.

Similarly, I will not consider Floyd or Oscar the dominant 154 lber when they fight whoever wins.

The Duran that dispensed of Cuevas, and Davey Moore at around 154, would have done similar things with Oscar.

sorry andy...a peak oscar outboxes duran at 154---davey moore was a B-level fighter and by the time duran got hold of cuevas, he had already been dominated and manhandled by the likes of roger stafford and had been only a mere shell of himself after the destruction by hearns (in fact never defeating a quality foe after that!!)

shoutout2u wrote:

Andy Mac wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I've always suspected that there are plenty of fighters at 154 who could have given Oscar fits, I never believed that Oscar or Mosley were the top men at 154, no more than Leonard and Duran were the top 168 lbers when they fought, despite the fact the fight was for the WBC super middle title.

Similarly, I will not consider Floyd or Oscar the dominant 154 lber when they fight whoever wins.

The Duran that dispensed of Cuevas, and Davey Moore at around 154, would have done similar things with Oscar.

sorry andy...a peak oscar outboxes duran at 154---davey moore was a B-level fighter and by the time duran got hold of cuevas, he had already been dominated and manhandled by the likes of roger stafford and had been only a mere shell of himself after the destruction by hearns (in fact never defeating a quality foe after that!!)

I'll still take Duran over the Dlh that defeated Vargas and Mayorga, to say Moore was a B- Fighter is Moore was a pretty good fighter Duran dominated him Duran was very good defensively and would not let Oscar hit him with 3 jabs in a row and he would not tire out like Vargas did late in the fight Duran would win a Close UD "Homey"

I can see why you have problems with the term "old manning". Having argued on the subject with you. Makes me think of a fat bloke who makes poisonous turkey burgers nowadays.

I think Hopkins' circle, right hand, grab, spin, hip smash, low blow, hit 'em in the face when they turn to the ref, does have some method. Certainly disorientates and upsets opponents, though it's def not a clean, refined mode of boxing evolved from Charles, Walcott, Archie Moore.

I'd say it comes more out of Fritzie Zivic.

Whereas a lot of Toney and Byrd's late boxing has been lazy, flat footed, shoulder rolling & singe counter. You could say it's a bit of a Detroit tradition. Another explanation is that it's copied somewhat from the few tapes of Archie Moore surviving - i.e. when he was literally an "old man" - in his late 30s/40s finding ways to conserve energy & win.

My 3 time world champion that I was referencing was Zab Judah- I cannot remember what you called him - but it wasn't very complimentary on his ability. He is the most skilled #147 fighter out there at the time of the Mayweather fight - and Baldomir was rated at #1 - what more could he have done. As I said, if he would have faced Margarito and then waited and faced Cotto - people would still be calling him a paper champion at the weight who hasn't faced the "top dog" (Baldomir) and the fighter who could arguebally give him the most problems (Judah). Note, I did say arguebally - but if he beat Margarito people would only say "oh he won't fight someone who can match his speed". He's only fighting someone who got outboxed by Daniel Santos.

As for Iran Barkley - I think you are WAY overating him. Fernando and Mayorga MAY have been on the decrease and overated, but still were champions at the time - Mayorga was so shot that he gave Piccirillo a bit of a pasting and we all so how much Piccirillo has left a couple of weeks ago. I think we could go back to the thread about the Maligned British fighters and say the same about the maligned DLH opponents - Mayorga was supposed to be "Mr Cast Iron" Jaw before the fight, after the fight it was "he's shot". Yes, Trinidad did a job on both before - but both came back after, neither got wobbled or lost between the Trinidad/DLH fights and Vargas went on to put on one last good show vs Mosley.

Barkley was slow, Barkley didn't have much variation and wasn't that co-ordinated or skilled. Indeed, as much as Vargas is overated he had more skills than Barkley (remember, Vargas was a fanastic amateur).... Mayorga is about his level.

Granted its not a bad point about the way Mayorga especially throws his shots. However, where I disagree is the "guarentee" that Napoles would beat DLH to the punch. As you implied, Napoles wasn't exactly Mr Hard to hit either. You mention the Quartey fight, yep he hurt DLH I disagree that he was close to stopping him, but he floored him badly. But then a more fearsome puncher (Trinidad) couldn't make a tent on him. You might disagree but no way did Napoles hit harder than Trinidad.

As I said, if you said "I think Napoles would beat DLH, but DLH would have his moments" or "I think Napoles should be ranked a little ahead of DLH" - then yes, although I wouldn't agree I wouldn't argue. Its this "everything was so much better in 30 odd years ago" attitude "every opponent was so much better 30 odd years ago" and Napoles is a different LEAGUE to DLH is what I disagree with.

Great you might think Gatti, Judah, Baldomir, DLH, Mayweather, Trinidad, Quartey, Vargas, Mosley, and Mayorga are all shit - but don't say Barkley was a great.

shoutout2u wrote:

Andy Mac wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I've always suspected that there are plenty of fighters at 154 who could have given Oscar fits, I never believed that Oscar or Mosley were the top men at 154, no more than Leonard and Duran were the top 168 lbers when they fought, despite the fact the fight was for the WBC super middle title.

Similarly, I will not consider Floyd or Oscar the dominant 154 lber when they fight whoever wins.

The Duran that dispensed of Cuevas, and Davey Moore at around 154, would have done similar things with Oscar.

sorry andy...a peak oscar outboxes duran at 154---davey moore was a B-level fighter and by the time duran got hold of cuevas, he had already been dominated and manhandled by the likes of roger stafford and had been only a mere shell of himself after the destruction by hearns (in fact never defeating a quality foe after that!!)

Davey Moore was a very talented young fighter, but Duran had too much experience. Had the referee not allowed him to take such a prolonged beating, who knows what he would have gone on to have done.

Oscar is no big shakes at 154, he has never dominated the division, and has not had to compete against the young guns of the division, consider that Castillejo lost to Fernando Vargas (haven't seen this one, but don't remember any talk of controversy), and that is probably Oscar's sole win over a true 154 lber of any note.

Davey Moore was a genuine 154 lber, and he was on a hot streak when Duran got to him, but he was ruined by that fight.

I just cannot believe anyone thinks that Oscar would be able to dominate a fighter as clever, instinctive, brutal and who brought as much pressure as Duran. Roberto would have been on Oscar all night, and Oscar would not have been able to land many clean punches. Oscar is a good fighter, but Roberto was a truly great fighter, Oscar's defensive skills are not good enough for him to have Beaten Duran on any night for my money, he's always been too easy to tag.

Of course this is all conjecture.

I'll give Barkley respect as a good slugger. Boxers usually beat him - Kalambay, Toney, Maske - and Benn bombed him out. But the Duran fight is debatable and Barkley put in a career best effort, had it not been for the knockdown. That was the fight where he looked like an elite fighter.

Nonetheless, the two wins over Hearns are terrific - no lucky punch in the 2nd fight and he has been in some incredible fights.

I thought there was nothing debatable about that fight, if anything the score cards flattered Barkley who was outfoxed throughout.

That for me was Duran's finest performance, he was 37, campaigning two whole divisions above his best fighting weight, and must have been giving away 15 lbs on fight night against a much younger man, and still triumphed. The fact he floored him too, shows what a technically good puncher Duran was. He was indeed aptly named.

I felt Duran nicked it with the knockdown and by staggering Barkley at the end of round 1. That's what removed the doubt for me. Barkley was excellent with the body shots and landed some really heavy duty hooks, while Duran was a bit more precise, especially with head shots.

I do agree on Zab. Although as your arguement with Barkley being cute for the one fight (which I will discuss a bit later on), Zab on one or two occasions has shown a bit of a fighting brain.... Spinks rematch and for me definately the early stages of the Mayweather fight untill Floyd took over. Zab did some crazy things towards the end, but only because he couldn't cope with Floyd and was frustrated.... This does happen to the greats (not suggesting that Zab is one mind) - Duran vs Leonard.

You say that for the first time (and I would say only time) Barkley "developed" some boxing ability was vs Duran. Perhaps this was because he was fighting a much slower Duran (than in his prime) who was actually far easier to hit than in his hayday. You say Trinidad cut of the ring badly, this was probably first evidences in the DLH fight and also shown in the Whittikar fights, Wright and Hopkins fights..... Common factor here, all great fighters who made him look slow and amateurish - DLH did the same to an aging Julio Cesar Chavez, Genero Hernandez.... Its all about levels and I have little doubt the Jose Napoles would encounter similar problems vs DLH untill at least the famous "fade" that he does. Certainly nobody questionned Trinidad's offensive ability (including cutting down the ring) when he was fighting B+ level fighters and other champions before HE stepped it up vs DLH.

Sorry, I didn't imply that Piccirillo was an outstanding world champion. He isn't, but I think he showed he is a solid European champion, who is still up in the fringes and hasn't slipped very little. I didn't mean to imply that beating Piccirillo implies that Mayorga is the greatest of all time. All I meant was beating Piccirillo (and the manner of that win) showed that Mayorga was a worthy belt holder and still had a fair amount in the tank.

viciousmaussa wrote:

stujones wrote:

viciousmaussa wrote:Simms limited? Old? Old maybe, limited no way. He's fast, clean puncher, well rounded, FRESH and a southpaw to boot. He pisses all over de la Hoya.

Karmazin would've given Mosley and DLH serious trouble.

DLH hits harder, has a better chin and better stamina (IMO) than Spinks and is equally as fast and ring savvy. Now, even if you think Karmazin beat Spinks I don't think anyone can say that Spinks didn't have his moments and untill Spinks faded he was well on top. DLH wouldn't have lost, Karmazin might have had some moments - but DLH wouldn't have lost.

Pernell Whittikar, Shane Mosley, Tito Trinidad, Bernard Hopkins, Ike Quartey, Julio Cesar Chavez, Fernando Vargas, Felix Sturm - Thats a decent bunch of fighters - Some of these beat DLH, maybe more than what actually got the decision - but NONE of these pissed all over him. De La Hoya had his moments vs all of these - so why does Travis Simms piss all over him. If Hopkins / Whittikar etc cannot, then neither can Simms. Weight untill Travis fights a proper champion before making judgment - lets see him in with a Kassim Ouma type first.

Old Hopkins (minus his reflexes) was in command. I had Quartey winning 3/4 of the fight v DLH clearly.

At this stage, Simms looks like he has the wrong style for DLH. A fast lefty who can crack pretty hard, who is hungry (nay, starving) to cement his place and just looks too big. Of course, DLH can do a lot better than Jose Rivera, but I expect big things from Brother of Tardis!

Everyone's big on Dawson but Simms gets overlooked.

How in the world did Quartey win about 9/12 rounds Simms looks good but DLH is a much better defensive fighter than Rivera and wouldn't let himself get repeatedly tagged Trinidad,Quartey and Vargas are all a level above Simms

stujones wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

J-C wrote: I don't think people are saying he should have stayed at 130 more that after moving up to 140 or 147 it would mean more to clean that division out. Rather than having three fights at 140lbs, moving up to 147lbs having three fights there and then moving to 154lbs.

Obviously it remains to be seen what he does after the Oscar fight if he goes back down to 147 and beats Cotto, Margartio, Williams and Mosely over the next few years i don't think anyone will complain.

1 question I'll put out is who would we actually want Mayweather to fight that would actually fight him. The most ridicolous assertions are that Mayweather avoided Cotto and Hatton when he actually tried to get both in the ring with him and Team Hatton and Arrum (Cottos daddy) told him errmmm no were not ready maybe in 6years time matey. The only fights we may have seen at 140 with Mayweather in 2005-6 would have been Maussa/Harris/Witter - beating Baldomir/Mitchell/Judah is far better on the CV and marketing wise. At 147 the only name he could have fought was Margarito and then he wouldnt have been linear champ in that division and we'd probably hear he was avoiding

For those claiming they want to see him dominate a weight - whats a bigger fight Mayweather-Margarito or Mayweather-DLH? Which is a tougher fight 154 and below than DLH?

Thankyou Mr Nutrition, completely agree. I really don't know what reason would there be for Floyd to carry on if he beats DLH - both in terms of quality of opponent (and the situation with the weight) or the size of the fight everything will be a down side. If he cannot secure greatness after beating DLH - he never will.

The only fights that would have any meaning straight after DLH would possibly be Mosley at 147, or more fights at 154 and even Middleweight. Only the Mosley option is realistic. Cotto/Hatton have got to do something pretty special to really BOOST Floyd's legacy further - if Floyd beats DLH at a weight that doesn't suit him then he would be fully expected to give Hatton/Cotto a bit of a beating at a more favoured weight - anything less and people will question the DLH win as some kind of fluke.

I think wins over Cotto/Hatton/Mosley would definately add to Mayweathers legacy actually. If he'll have any hunger after DLH is another matter as he says hes retiring yet a few months ago he was saying he'd fight for another 5years.

BTW DLH didn't quite duck Winky Wright - he did offer him $6m for a fight

viciousmaussa wrote:Anyway, Senior is training Junior now. Neat little twist.

How does that work didn't they hate each other a few months ago? And how will Roger fit into the equation I wonder

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:

stujones wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: 1 question I'll put out is who would we actually want Mayweather to fight that would actually fight him. The most ridicolous assertions are that Mayweather avoided Cotto and Hatton when he actually tried to get both in the ring with him and Team Hatton and Arrum (Cottos daddy) told him errmmm no were not ready maybe in 6years time matey. The only fights we may have seen at 140 with Mayweather in 2005-6 would have been Maussa/Harris/Witter - beating Baldomir/Mitchell/Judah is far better on the CV and marketing wise. At 147 the only name he could have fought was Margarito and then he wouldnt have been linear champ in that division and we'd probably hear he was avoiding

For those claiming they want to see him dominate a weight - whats a bigger fight Mayweather-Margarito or Mayweather-DLH? Which is a tougher fight 154 and below than DLH?

Thankyou Mr Nutrition, completely agree. I really don't know what reason would there be for Floyd to carry on if he beats DLH - both in terms of quality of opponent (and the situation with the weight) or the size of the fight everything will be a down side. If he cannot secure greatness after beating DLH - he never will.

The only fights that would have any meaning straight after DLH would possibly be Mosley at 147, or more fights at 154 and even Middleweight. Only the Mosley option is realistic. Cotto/Hatton have got to do something pretty special to really BOOST Floyd's legacy further - if Floyd beats DLH at a weight that doesn't suit him then he would be fully expected to give Hatton/Cotto a bit of a beating at a more favoured weight - anything less and people will question the DLH win as some kind of fluke.

I think wins over Cotto/Hatton/Mosley would definately add to Mayweathers legacy actually. If he'll have any hunger after DLH is another matter as he says hes retiring yet a few months ago he was saying he'd fight for another 5years.

BTW DLH didn't quite duck Winky Wright - he did offer him $6m for a fight

I agree if PBF beats DLH and goes on to defeat Cotto/Mosley/Hatton then it will add significantly to his legacy. It would prove conclusively that he was the best fighter P4P of his generation. As to whether that would make him GOAT is another question. You would not be able to take that achievement in isolation. You will have to find some means of comparison with the incumbents that are considered to occupy that hallowed status.

Anyhow it is unlikely to happen, so the debate is probably dead in the water as it stands.

Mayweather will never be GOAT hes simply not good enough. He could potentially crack the top20.

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Mayweather will never be GOAT hes simply not good enough. He could potentially crack the top20.

Yep I agree. But I am sure that there will be a few people that would claim him as that if the unlikely did happen.

For once we are in agreement.

Althought, just to spoil the love in, I don't think it's that he isn't good enough, merely the course he has chosen to take with all this belt hopping.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:For once we are in agreement.

Althought, just to spoil the love in, I don't think it's that he isn't good enough, merely the course he has chosen to take with all this belt hopping.

I really think Floyds not on the level of past greats, I just don't think hes a good enough puncher to be considered the best, maybe he at the top20 level though. In terms of overall ability there are so many jsut better than him.

What route to greatness would you have taken if you had complete control of Floyds career and were his manager James? Bare in mind Hatton/Cotto/Tyszu fights were near impossible to make.

I think we should wait untill the DLH fight before we judge if Floyd Mayweather simply isn't good enough to be considered the GOAT. At the MOMENT, I think Floyds level of opponent (as good as it was at Super Feather and Light) to put him in consideration. He's done very little wrong.

For me he is the most skillful fighter of his generation, and I DO include Roy Jones in that. Although, Mayweather needs to prove it - and for its the DLH fight that is the ultimate acid test.

Yes, PN - I think an arguement can be made that if Floyd jumps back down two devisions and fights Hatton that will be some achievement (ala what Jones did Ruiz then Tarver) - then that will be a massive factor on his legacy. Cotto at 147 isn't a massive achievement yet, Cotto is just a fledgling champion - whose done nowt, same with Margarito (although he has been a champion for 5 years). Mosley (as the guy who apparently had DLH's number) will be a definate enhancer of his legacy.

James, I don't even think the Barkley's fight was Duran's best performance at Middleweight - his honourable loss to Hagler was better. I can see where you are coming from, but your taking into account ALL other factors (age, prior form etc).... It was his best "achievment", just like the Rumble in the Jungle was Ali's - but for neither was it their best performance.

Again you criticise Floyd's weight hoping, but please can you clarify. He fought the #1 147 and the most guy who posed the most offensively. Had he not faced those he would have been criticised. His 140 tenour was dissapointing no doubt - He could have got something with Casa and Freitas at Super Feather - but again, he was active and never had a bum in that weight and did geniunally outgrow the devision, but you cannot fault his lightweight rain. I cannot think of a fighter Floyd avoided - Juan Lazcano? Maybe. Sure he could have stuck around at 147 and continued to fight guys lower ranked than he already did... but my argument is what would that achieve. Hopkins is getting condemmed (is it on this thread) for not moving up and fighting Toney. Cotto and Margarito need alot more work before that can be called a solid world champion - Cotto looks to have the skills, but I have my doubts on Margarito. They haven't proved themselves any better than the likes of William Joppy and Keith Holmes - fighters who some people have criticised Hopkins for taking on as opposed to moving up and fighting Toney etc. Yes, though Hatton at 140 was a crying shame as was his whole reign there - especially as it seems to be his best weight.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

shoutout2u wrote:

Andy Mac wrote: The Duran that dispensed of Cuevas, and Davey Moore at around 154, would have done similar things with Oscar.

sorry andy...a peak oscar outboxes duran at 154---davey moore was a B-level fighter and by the time duran got hold of cuevas, he had already been dominated and manhandled by the likes of roger stafford and had been only a mere shell of himself after the destruction by hearns (in fact never defeating a quality foe after that!!)

Davey Moore was a very talented young fighter, but Duran had too much experience. Had the referee not allowed him to take such a prolonged beating, who knows what he would have gone on to have done.

Oscar is no big shakes at 154, he has never dominated the division, and has not had to compete against the young guns of the division, consider that Castillejo lost to Fernando Vargas (haven't seen this one, but don't remember any talk of controversy), and that is probably Oscar's sole win over a true 154 lber of any note.

Davey Moore was a genuine 154 lber, and he was on a hot streak when Duran got to him, but he was ruined by that fight.

I just cannot believe anyone thinks that Oscar would be able to dominate a fighter as clever, instinctive, brutal and who brought as much pressure as Duran. Roberto would have been on Oscar all night, and Oscar would not have been able to land many clean punches. Oscar is a good fighter, but Roberto was a truly great fighter, Oscar's defensive skills are not good enough for him to have Beaten Duran on any night for my money, he's always been too easy to tag.

Of course this is all conjecture.

duran never dominated at 154 and i believe oscar has a higher quality mor cosistent record at 154...sure duran looked good against the relatively untested moore, but roberto was also taken to school by the pedestrian kirkland laing!! oscar would never lose to a fighter of laing's decent but very ordinary caliber!!

in fact...looking at both men's complete records at 154, you would have to give the edge to oscar!!

oscar 4-1=lopsided wins over vargas, castillejo, mayorga and campas+ only loss was very controversial 12-rounder to future HOFer shane mosley that MANY had oscar winning 8-4 rounds!!

roberto 5-3=lopsided wins over moore, minchillo, very limited prospect nino gonzalez, journeyman jimmy batten, pathetic shell of once-tough pipino cuevas+ clearcut losses to B-level kirkland laing, benitez and total destruction at hands of hearns---clearly the most BRUTAL LOSS of duran's 4 decade career!!

shoutout2u wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

shoutout2u wrote: sorry andy...a peak oscar outboxes duran at 154---davey moore was a B-level fighter and by the time duran got hold of cuevas, he had already been dominated and manhandled by the likes of roger stafford and had been only a mere shell of himself after the destruction by hearns (in fact never defeating a quality foe after that!!)

Davey Moore was a very talented young fighter, but Duran had too much experience. Had the referee not allowed him to take such a prolonged beating, who knows what he would have gone on to have done.

Oscar is no big shakes at 154, he has never dominated the division, and has not had to compete against the young guns of the division, consider that Castillejo lost to Fernando Vargas (haven't seen this one, but don't remember any talk of controversy), and that is probably Oscar's sole win over a true 154 lber of any note.

Davey Moore was a genuine 154 lber, and he was on a hot streak when Duran got to him, but he was ruined by that fight.

I just cannot believe anyone thinks that Oscar would be able to dominate a fighter as clever, instinctive, brutal and who brought as much pressure as Duran. Roberto would have been on Oscar all night, and Oscar would not have been able to land many clean punches. Oscar is a good fighter, but Roberto was a truly great fighter, Oscar's defensive skills are not good enough for him to have Beaten Duran on any night for my money, he's always been too easy to tag.

Of course this is all conjecture.

duran never dominated at 154 and i believe oscar has a higher quality mor cosistent record at 154...sure duran looked good against the relatively untested moore, but roberto was also taken to school by the pedestrian kirkland laing!! oscar would never lose to a fighter of laing's decent but very ordinary caliber!!

in fact...looking at both men's complete records at 154, you would have to give the edge to oscar!!

oscar 4-1=lopsided wins over vargas, castillejo, mayorga and campas+ only loss was very controversial 12-rounder to future HOFer shane mosley that MANY had oscar winning 8-4 rounds!!

roberto 5-3=lopsided wins over moore, minchillo, very limited prospect nino gonzalez, journeyman jimmy batten, pathetic shell of once-tough pipino cuevas+ clearcut losses to B-level kirkland laing, benitez and total destruction at hands of hearns---clearly the most BRUTAL LOSS of duran's 4 decade career!!

You said you would Take Dlh over the Duran that beat Moore not the one that lost to kirkland laing, or who was the more consistent fighter.. and Benitez was not a B- Level fighter.. Duran beat's Dlh by a close UD..

stujones wrote:I think we should wait untill the DLH fight before we judge if Floyd Mayweather simply isn't good enough to be considered the GOAT. At the MOMENT, I think Floyds level of opponent (as good as it was at Super Feather and Light) to put him in consideration. He's done very little wrong.

For me he is the most skillful fighter of his generation, and I DO include Roy Jones in that. Although, Mayweather needs to prove it - and for its the DLH fight that is the ultimate acid test.

Yes, PN - I think an arguement can be made that if Floyd jumps back down two devisions and fights Hatton that will be some achievement (ala what Jones did Ruiz then Tarver) - then that will be a massive factor on his legacy. Cotto at 147 isn't a massive achievement yet, Cotto is just a fledgling champion - whose done nowt, same with Margarito (although he has been a champion for 5 years). Mosley (as the guy who apparently had DLH's number) will be a definate enhancer of his legacy.

James, I don't even think the Barkley's fight was Duran's best performance at Middleweight - his honourable loss to Hagler was better. I can see where you are coming from, but your taking into account ALL other factors (age, prior form etc).... It was his best "achievment", just like the Rumble in the Jungle was Ali's - but for neither was it their best performance.

Again you criticise Floyd's weight hoping, but please can you clarify. He fought the #1 147 and the most guy who posed the most offensively. Had he not faced those he would have been criticised. His 140 tenour was dissapointing no doubt - He could have got something with Casa and Freitas at Super Feather - but again, he was active and never had a bum in that weight and did geniunally outgrow the devision, but you cannot fault his lightweight rain. I cannot think of a fighter Floyd avoided - Juan Lazcano? Maybe. Sure he could have stuck around at 147 and continued to fight guys lower ranked than he already did... but my argument is what would that achieve. Hopkins is getting condemmed (is it on this thread) for not moving up and fighting Toney. Cotto and Margarito need alot more work before that can be called a solid world champion - Cotto looks to have the skills, but I have my doubts on Margarito. They haven't proved themselves any better than the likes of William Joppy and Keith Holmes - fighters who some people have criticised Hopkins for taking on as opposed to moving up and fighting Toney etc. Yes, though Hatton at 140 was a crying shame as was his whole reign there - especially as it seems to be his best weight.

You seem to be talking as if Mayweather is a fully fledged LM Stu. He will be lucky to weigh as much as 150 in the ring against Oscar, so for him to go back down to 140, will be nothing like as hard as it was for Jones Jr to lose 25lbs of muscle, after the Ruiz fight.
As for him being the GOAT, that could only happen if every fan over the age of 35 dies, as he is not, and never will be fit to be mentioned in the same breath as everyone from SRR, to JC Chavez, in ATG lists.