I think it a little worrying that they allow a forty-plus out of shape, and way past his prime boxer, with very little (respectively) MMA experience in with a young gun who has been at it for years.
Julius hasn't had any desire in boxing for years, let alone a new sport, and certainly hasn't displayed the fitness for serious fighting in quite some time.
Whereas Julius can survive in a boxing ring, where all you need to do is hold, spoil and mug the other guy enough to last the distance, there isn't really anywhere to hide in MMA, not when the guy can take you to the canvas and pound your head in.
This shouldn't be allowed to happen, Julius, or someone like him could get seriously injured. Wasn't it Vince Phillips a couple of years ago who got his shine bone smashed?
Julius Francis - Cage Rage
I agree, although I think Gary will take it as a compliment you call him a young gun - didn't they say he was 37 himself? Maybe not.jamesmcdonnell wrote:I think it a little worrying that they allow a forty-plus out of shape, and way past his prime boxer, with very little (respectively) MMA experience in with a young gun who has been at it for years.
Julius hasn't had any desire in boxing for years, let alone a new sport, and certainly hasn't displayed the fitness for serious fighting in quite some time.
Whereas Julius can survive in a boxing ring, where all you need to do is hold, spoil and mug the other guy enough to last the distance, there isn't really anywhere to hide in MMA, not when the guy can take you to the canvas and pound your head in.
This shouldn't be allowed to happen, Julius, or someone like him could get seriously injured. Wasn't it Vince Phillips a couple of years ago who got his shine bone smashed?
Yes, Vince Phillips definately broke something I think in his MMA debut - although he did have some ambition - I am sure he has comeback and won on or two relatively decent fights in Boxing since (quite remarkable really). Didn't Botha or someone break his arm also in his MMA debut?
Maybe the main difference between these fighters and Julius is that Julius knows when to go down when the going gets too tough - he might save himself from injury, but it will have the fans booing and not coming back.
Hi!
Thai-box - I think I answered your points in my previous post! But its worth further pointing out that the previous UK UFC was slated for only having one fight that turned out to be good, while every fight rocked on Cage Rage 22...you make the matchups...you don't know what will happen...
MMA is a tough one as there are so many ways to lose! You really can't have a hole in any area. I've never been tested on my grappling, so me v Julius was seen as being a stand up v stand up match.
Just to note on the refereeing, the two Cage Rage refs always er on the side of caution, and tend to stop fights possibly on the early side. Safety is paramount, and no fighter will object to their safety being put first. In fact, Grant Waterman is the best ref I have ever come accross in any sport. I feel real safe with him as ref...
In respect to shin bones, when leg kicks are involved there have been a few shin bone breaks. Rather than take it on the soft tissue of the thigh you block shin kicks with your shin. The force comes in literally like a swung baseball bat, and you need to know how to block correctly. This means two things. Firstly, you need to lift your foot and get the tendon elevated, also this 'locks out' the shin. Secondly the hip acts a spring, to absorb the force behind the solid block. If you get the first bit right, the second bit wrong, force meets force. And if you have weak shins, they can break.
Vince Phillips' injury was due to the above.
In respect to getting hurt - its no more than boxing with the strikes, apart from more areas of the body can be struck. On the ground, without being able to use weight and the legs, punches are much weaker (hence why I go for accuracy, pressure points and nerve endings) but they do mark you up more than in boxing and there is a higher cut risk. In respect to submissions, these are a relatively safe way of losing! Usually you have plenty of time to submit, and fighters are not generally in the habit of 'snapping' techniques on as they can lose control and lose the submission. The only exception is possibly a 'heel hook', where the lock comes on so damn quick there's not much time if at all to tap!
Interestingly, contrary to the idealistic garbage that the BMA have been saying in recent weeks, there have been studies into injuries in MMA, including the leading piece from the John Hopkins University School of Medicine in the USA. Their research has shown that MMA actually incurs less injuries than boxing! Though even the MMAers have to realise that we still go all out to hit each other...its the sport!
Kevo - the 'teabag' line was from Tom Mullins, the British Ju Jitsu coach that led me to 11xWorld titles for sport ju-jitsu, one of the forerunners to modern MMA.
James, further to the above it is true in my opinion that Julius has had no boxing desire for years, but he has a desire for MMA, and thats why he was potentially so dangerous - he'd thrown himself back into training and was enjoying it! The desire is back...the spark alight...
And although he carried, he was also pretty damn fit. MMA fitness is needed more than anything to go from the totally relaxed striking range to the total tension of grappling and back again - it totally stresses the body out far more than stand up or grappling on their own, the transitions themselves shocking the body.
You boxers try a 5minute full on grapple - you'll never last it! The same for pure wrestlers trying to box for 5minutes - they'll never last either! Its because the body is stressed totally differently. I actually think that Julius was in far better shape than most give him credit for - remember it was me in contact with him, and I know how fit someone is! For example look at the superfit Edson Draggo in my previous fight - I used the same techniques to tire him out and his fitness lasted about as long as Julius' did. So I know Julius has been doing the work in grappling as well as stand up, and transitions between.
Stu - I agree with your latter comments in your post. The commentators should have been more accurate on history, but also as to the reason why he tapped - although in that respect, only me, Julius and Grant the ref could see the total picture there at that time.
And yep, I was underestimated too, made worse by coming in on 100% top form!
And yep, turned 37 on 2nd September. But since being active in sport since 1974 I can truly say I have never, ever been better conditioned - the good ol' experience gained from a life time in sport and now finally being able to listen to coaches helps too! Ignore the little love handles - I train to be a fighter, not look like one lol!
More info for you!
Smiler
Thai-box - I think I answered your points in my previous post! But its worth further pointing out that the previous UK UFC was slated for only having one fight that turned out to be good, while every fight rocked on Cage Rage 22...you make the matchups...you don't know what will happen...
MMA is a tough one as there are so many ways to lose! You really can't have a hole in any area. I've never been tested on my grappling, so me v Julius was seen as being a stand up v stand up match.
Just to note on the refereeing, the two Cage Rage refs always er on the side of caution, and tend to stop fights possibly on the early side. Safety is paramount, and no fighter will object to their safety being put first. In fact, Grant Waterman is the best ref I have ever come accross in any sport. I feel real safe with him as ref...
In respect to shin bones, when leg kicks are involved there have been a few shin bone breaks. Rather than take it on the soft tissue of the thigh you block shin kicks with your shin. The force comes in literally like a swung baseball bat, and you need to know how to block correctly. This means two things. Firstly, you need to lift your foot and get the tendon elevated, also this 'locks out' the shin. Secondly the hip acts a spring, to absorb the force behind the solid block. If you get the first bit right, the second bit wrong, force meets force. And if you have weak shins, they can break.
Vince Phillips' injury was due to the above.
In respect to getting hurt - its no more than boxing with the strikes, apart from more areas of the body can be struck. On the ground, without being able to use weight and the legs, punches are much weaker (hence why I go for accuracy, pressure points and nerve endings) but they do mark you up more than in boxing and there is a higher cut risk. In respect to submissions, these are a relatively safe way of losing! Usually you have plenty of time to submit, and fighters are not generally in the habit of 'snapping' techniques on as they can lose control and lose the submission. The only exception is possibly a 'heel hook', where the lock comes on so damn quick there's not much time if at all to tap!
Interestingly, contrary to the idealistic garbage that the BMA have been saying in recent weeks, there have been studies into injuries in MMA, including the leading piece from the John Hopkins University School of Medicine in the USA. Their research has shown that MMA actually incurs less injuries than boxing! Though even the MMAers have to realise that we still go all out to hit each other...its the sport!
Kevo - the 'teabag' line was from Tom Mullins, the British Ju Jitsu coach that led me to 11xWorld titles for sport ju-jitsu, one of the forerunners to modern MMA.
James, further to the above it is true in my opinion that Julius has had no boxing desire for years, but he has a desire for MMA, and thats why he was potentially so dangerous - he'd thrown himself back into training and was enjoying it! The desire is back...the spark alight...
And although he carried, he was also pretty damn fit. MMA fitness is needed more than anything to go from the totally relaxed striking range to the total tension of grappling and back again - it totally stresses the body out far more than stand up or grappling on their own, the transitions themselves shocking the body.
You boxers try a 5minute full on grapple - you'll never last it! The same for pure wrestlers trying to box for 5minutes - they'll never last either! Its because the body is stressed totally differently. I actually think that Julius was in far better shape than most give him credit for - remember it was me in contact with him, and I know how fit someone is! For example look at the superfit Edson Draggo in my previous fight - I used the same techniques to tire him out and his fitness lasted about as long as Julius' did. So I know Julius has been doing the work in grappling as well as stand up, and transitions between.
Stu - I agree with your latter comments in your post. The commentators should have been more accurate on history, but also as to the reason why he tapped - although in that respect, only me, Julius and Grant the ref could see the total picture there at that time.
And yep, I was underestimated too, made worse by coming in on 100% top form!
And yep, turned 37 on 2nd September. But since being active in sport since 1974 I can truly say I have never, ever been better conditioned - the good ol' experience gained from a life time in sport and now finally being able to listen to coaches helps too! Ignore the little love handles - I train to be a fighter, not look like one lol!
More info for you!
Smiler
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5564
- Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 06:37
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5564
- Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 06:37
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jamesmcdonnell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 45233
- Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 06:11
My point is that Phillips received that injury because he didn't know how to block correctly. I know what you're talking about because I did Thai boxing for a while, where you block kicks with the shin, which I add, is excruiciatingly painfuil.Smiler wrote:Hi!
Thai-box - I think I answered your points in my previous post! But its worth further pointing out that the previous UK UFC was slated for only having one fight that turned out to be good, while every fight rocked on Cage Rage 22...you make the matchups...you don't know what will happen...
MMA is a tough one as there are so many ways to lose! You really can't have a hole in any area. I've never been tested on my grappling, so me v Julius was seen as being a stand up v stand up match.
Just to note on the refereeing, the two Cage Rage refs always er on the side of caution, and tend to stop fights possibly on the early side. Safety is paramount, and no fighter will object to their safety being put first. In fact, Grant Waterman is the best ref I have ever come accross in any sport. I feel real safe with him as ref...
In respect to shin bones, when leg kicks are involved there have been a few shin bone breaks. Rather than take it on the soft tissue of the thigh you block shin kicks with your shin. The force comes in literally like a swung baseball bat, and you need to know how to block correctly. This means two things. Firstly, you need to lift your foot and get the tendon elevated, also this 'locks out' the shin. Secondly the hip acts a spring, to absorb the force behind the solid block. If you get the first bit right, the second bit wrong, force meets force. And if you have weak shins, they can break.
Vince Phillips' injury was due to the above.
In respect to getting hurt - its no more than boxing with the strikes, apart from more areas of the body can be struck. On the ground, without being able to use weight and the legs, punches are much weaker (hence why I go for accuracy, pressure points and nerve endings) but they do mark you up more than in boxing and there is a higher cut risk. In respect to submissions, these are a relatively safe way of losing! Usually you have plenty of time to submit, and fighters are not generally in the habit of 'snapping' techniques on as they can lose control and lose the submission. The only exception is possibly a 'heel hook', where the lock comes on so damn quick there's not much time if at all to tap!
Interestingly, contrary to the idealistic garbage that the BMA have been saying in recent weeks, there have been studies into injuries in MMA, including the leading piece from the John Hopkins University School of Medicine in the USA. Their research has shown that MMA actually incurs less injuries than boxing! Though even the MMAers have to realise that we still go all out to hit each other...its the sport!
Kevo - the 'teabag' line was from Tom Mullins, the British Ju Jitsu coach that led me to 11xWorld titles for sport ju-jitsu, one of the forerunners to modern MMA.
James, further to the above it is true in my opinion that Julius has had no boxing desire for years, but he has a desire for MMA, and thats why he was potentially so dangerous - he'd thrown himself back into training and was enjoying it! The desire is back...the spark alight...
And although he carried, he was also pretty damn fit. MMA fitness is needed more than anything to go from the totally relaxed striking range to the total tension of grappling and back again - it totally stresses the body out far more than stand up or grappling on their own, the transitions themselves shocking the body.
You boxers try a 5minute full on grapple - you'll never last it! The same for pure wrestlers trying to box for 5minutes - they'll never last either! Its because the body is stressed totally differently. I actually think that Julius was in far better shape than most give him credit for - remember it was me in contact with him, and I know how fit someone is! For example look at the superfit Edson Draggo in my previous fight - I used the same techniques to tire him out and his fitness lasted about as long as Julius' did. So I know Julius has been doing the work in grappling as well as stand up, and transitions between.
Stu - I agree with your latter comments in your post. The commentators should have been more accurate on history, but also as to the reason why he tapped - although in that respect, only me, Julius and Grant the ref could see the total picture there at that time.
And yep, I was underestimated too, made worse by coming in on 100% top form!
And yep, turned 37 on 2nd September. But since being active in sport since 1974 I can truly say I have never, ever been better conditioned - the good ol' experience gained from a life time in sport and now finally being able to listen to coaches helps too! Ignore the little love handles - I train to be a fighter, not look like one lol!
More info for you!
Smiler
I contend that no matter how fit you say Julius was, the fact he is four stone overweight indicates he is far from in the best shape. I know being cut does not mean you are fit, but Julius has been carrying more spare tires than a fleet of AA vans for several years now, and doesn't seem to have shifted that.
I have a big problem with fighters coming from boxing to MMA in their 40's, competing with men who have spent their whole careers in MMA.
Can you imagine a forty year old novice boxer, who had done say, Judo, being sent in against top flight active sub contender level professional after a few months of training, it would be a massacre, and quite rightly, there would be a huge outcry about it.
Nah, I disagree - Phillips received that injury because he was unlucky. It happens to top fighters too.
Shin blocking is only painful until your shin goes numb! Lol!
In respect to weight, in MMA I've known fighters pile pounds on, or strip weight, to suit opponents. I think that it actually assisted Julius in being that heavy, especially with the knowledge that I am very, very light for this weight category!
In respect to your last point, this wasn't the case though. It also depends on the preparation and strategy for the fight. It is common for strikers to take out grapplers, and grapplers to take out strikers, by being able to fight THEIR fight. The one that wins the race is the one that sets the rules...
Just my opinion!
Smiler
Shin blocking is only painful until your shin goes numb! Lol!
In respect to weight, in MMA I've known fighters pile pounds on, or strip weight, to suit opponents. I think that it actually assisted Julius in being that heavy, especially with the knowledge that I am very, very light for this weight category!
In respect to your last point, this wasn't the case though. It also depends on the preparation and strategy for the fight. It is common for strikers to take out grapplers, and grapplers to take out strikers, by being able to fight THEIR fight. The one that wins the race is the one that sets the rules...
Just my opinion!
Smiler
Really enjoyable thread this one. Thanks for your articulate contributions Gary - really insightful stuff.
I'm in full agreement as regards many boxers not taking advantage of the most up-to-date developments in training effectively, with roadwork being a classic example.
For those who are interested in this type of thing, I swear by this guy, http://www.alwyncosgrove.com & http://www.alwyncosgrove.blogspot.com
He's a no-nonsense Scot now based in LA with a fascinating background and outlook. Having bought one of his books on weight-training it changed my approach utterly, and immensely for the better I should add.
Many in boxing should be more open-minded about picking up good tips from other disciplines.
However, just as an aside, I'd argue there's a case to be made that the market demand for exciting fighters (particularly TV pressure) has meant a diminishing skill set in terms of many top level fighters compared to their counterparts in earlier eras - in many cases it's superior athleticism and training, but less defensive skills etc, due to demands for a spectacle. Look at the market rate for a 'Gatti' versus a Pernell Whittaker, for example...
Finally, for a bit of impressive light entertainment check this out:
http://alwyncosgrove.blogspot.com/2007/ ... aster.html
I'm in full agreement as regards many boxers not taking advantage of the most up-to-date developments in training effectively, with roadwork being a classic example.
For those who are interested in this type of thing, I swear by this guy, http://www.alwyncosgrove.com & http://www.alwyncosgrove.blogspot.com
He's a no-nonsense Scot now based in LA with a fascinating background and outlook. Having bought one of his books on weight-training it changed my approach utterly, and immensely for the better I should add.
Many in boxing should be more open-minded about picking up good tips from other disciplines.
However, just as an aside, I'd argue there's a case to be made that the market demand for exciting fighters (particularly TV pressure) has meant a diminishing skill set in terms of many top level fighters compared to their counterparts in earlier eras - in many cases it's superior athleticism and training, but less defensive skills etc, due to demands for a spectacle. Look at the market rate for a 'Gatti' versus a Pernell Whittaker, for example...
Finally, for a bit of impressive light entertainment check this out:
http://alwyncosgrove.blogspot.com/2007/ ... aster.html
I have to second that initial point that many in boxing don't take adbvantage of the most up-to-date traning methods...
I only box amateur but try to incorporate a modern approach to my fitness, alongside pure boxing traning- certainly the fittest I have been... Though not a Pro opinion - one all the same.
I recall a comment made by a Professional (can't mind who) that stated that too much of boxing training is stuck in the dark ages - maybe he had a point?
That's just my wee two pence worth!
I watched Julius Francis against Smiler on Sky Sports and was really looking forard to it - I felt Julius looked out of his depth. MMA is a different sport and I think it ain't easy to wonder from one to another...
Aside from that - well done on the good win Smiler.
I only box amateur but try to incorporate a modern approach to my fitness, alongside pure boxing traning- certainly the fittest I have been... Though not a Pro opinion - one all the same.
I recall a comment made by a Professional (can't mind who) that stated that too much of boxing training is stuck in the dark ages - maybe he had a point?
That's just my wee two pence worth!
I watched Julius Francis against Smiler on Sky Sports and was really looking forard to it - I felt Julius looked out of his depth. MMA is a different sport and I think it ain't easy to wonder from one to another...
Aside from that - well done on the good win Smiler.
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Hardhitters11
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 942
- Joined: 02 Sep 2003, 13:20
Hi Gary great insight in this thread mate!
I know Julius as he live's local to me and we used to train at St Peter's boxing gym in Woolwich years ago when he first moved over from kickboxing.
I know he really tried to train and grasp MMA and although he still was out of his depth I know he really did train! (As you already stated).
He used to box with another fella I know Lee Murray to help Lee with the boxing side of thing's as well...
Personally I don't want to deny Julius a chance to earn extra money but also don't want him to embarass himself....As has been said he is a top fella.
HH
I know Julius as he live's local to me and we used to train at St Peter's boxing gym in Woolwich years ago when he first moved over from kickboxing.
I know he really tried to train and grasp MMA and although he still was out of his depth I know he really did train! (As you already stated).
He used to box with another fella I know Lee Murray to help Lee with the boxing side of thing's as well...
Personally I don't want to deny Julius a chance to earn extra money but also don't want him to embarass himself....As has been said he is a top fella.
HH
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5564
- Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 06:37
Yes, it was clear to me he did his strategic training. Even I could see that much, and I'm not knowledgeable about MMA.Hardhitters11 wrote:Hi Gary great insight in this thread mate!
I know Julius as he live's local to me and we used to train at St Peter's boxing gym in Woolwich years ago when he first moved over from kickboxing.
I know he really tried to train and grasp MMA and although he still was out of his depth I know he really did train! (As you already stated).
He used to box with another fella I know Lee Murray to help Lee with the boxing side of thing's as well...
Personally I don't want to deny Julius a chance to earn extra money but also don't want him to embarass himself....As has been said he is a top fella.
HH
However I'm not going to let the weight issue rest, Gary. I know what you mean about "training to BE fighters, not to LOOK LIKE fighters" etc, and I also thought the bulk helped him defend some takedown attempts because it gave him a greater centre of gravity. Also he would have taken some shifting if he had managed to get on top of you.
However, going back to his boxing career again, his performances there have been going downhill in correlation with to his rising weight. When he was 17st, he was beating Danny Williams. When he was 18st, he was losing to Audley Harrison, but at least putting up a fight. When he was 19st, he was losing easily to the likes of Mickey Steeds and Scott Landsdowne. So it's not rocket science to look at this trend and then see him come into his MMA debut at almost 21st and be a bit cynical.
I have to agree that carrying that excess weight would not help improve his fitness...and whilst there are other factors at play in respect to his decline in boxing there is a direct correlation between weight and his record - I looked at the weights he has fought at in his previous fights and saw that he'd put on weight...
Lee Murray...one of the few people I'm not keen on, for his actions and attitude and threats to friends of mine that were 100% out of place and out of order.
However, his involvement in any potential heist has not been made clear, nor proven, and he should be treated as innocent until he is proven guilty. However, saying that, it was a very violent and disturbing crime he is accused of, and if he has had an involvement, he should feel the full force of the law.
Just my opinion!
Oh, silly journos put in Boxing Weekly today apparently that I've previously beaten Butterbean - er - no! I've met Eric a couple of times, but have not fought him. Its a shame that journos don't do their research, and instead just make things up!
Smiler
Lee Murray...one of the few people I'm not keen on, for his actions and attitude and threats to friends of mine that were 100% out of place and out of order.
However, his involvement in any potential heist has not been made clear, nor proven, and he should be treated as innocent until he is proven guilty. However, saying that, it was a very violent and disturbing crime he is accused of, and if he has had an involvement, he should feel the full force of the law.
Just my opinion!
Oh, silly journos put in Boxing Weekly today apparently that I've previously beaten Butterbean - er - no! I've met Eric a couple of times, but have not fought him. Its a shame that journos don't do their research, and instead just make things up!
Smiler
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oliverfennell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5564
- Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 06:37
His win over James Thompson (W KO1) was his biggest win, the rest of his record isn't that impressive. Every other time he's fought an opponent with a winning record, he's lost.oliverfennell wrote:Speaking of which...
What's your opinion of Butterbean's MMA career? He's regarded as a total joke in boxing, but seems to get respect in MMA. But has he beaten anybody of note?
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Hardhitters11
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 942
- Joined: 02 Sep 2003, 13:20
Yes mate he is still in Morocco at the minute he was banged up out there but believe he may be out now or soon....He was banged up out there with 3 other fella's I know.....Deserter wrote:Now there's a nameHardhitters11 wrote:another fella I know Lee Murray to help Lee with the boxing side of thing's as well...What's happened to him HH, is he still in Morocco - they're trying to extradite him aren't they?
If he ever gets back here he is looking at bloody years!! But as everyone knows he is half Moroccan so may not even have to come back.
As for any incidents with you Gary I couldn't comment as it's sod all to do with me.....
I will be following your career from now on though mate......
What are you looking at doing career wise now mate? What direction are you looking to go in and who are prospective opponents?
Cheers for your time!
HH
Best of luck and nice to read your insightful comments. You can only beat who's in front of you at the end of the day! Interested to see who you are matched with next. Seems to me like you are capable of a pretty big stepup.Smiler wrote:No worries!
I'm in contract discussions at the moment in respect to my next fights...we'll see what happens! I will be fighting in Oct/Nov/Dec somewhere, thats for sure, whether MMA, kickboxing, Thai or K1...
Smiler
Regarding the Cage Rage show comments, it does seem to me they have gone down a bit more of a carnival route. The shows used to be full of competitive fights but there seems to have been a move down little more of a carnival route recently with Butterbean and Francis topping the bills. No respect intended to any of the fighters involved but Daley v Weir should have been topping that bill with Belfort v Zikic as chief support and the rest further down the card. Perhaps that has coincided with the Skysports deal and their demand for more 'commercial' fights at the top of the bill? Will be interesting to see where Elite XC takes it next.
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TerribleTerry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5272
- Joined: 29 Aug 2003, 12:30
For the MMA fans on the board, here is a Strikeforce card from the wkend, which was streamed live on the net (free to air.)
Whilst the depth of card isnt amazing, its a decent set of fights for free and waht I like about the approch is that the whole card is viewable for a full month on the net after the fights took place:
http://sports.yahoo.com/box;_ylt=Av59i1 ... ieeJQ5nYcB
With the likes of Gilbert Melendez, Joe Riggs and Bobby Southworth appearing on the card it is worth a look for the more 'hardcore' MMA fan.
Will we soon see boxing tread a similar path?
Whilst the depth of card isnt amazing, its a decent set of fights for free and waht I like about the approch is that the whole card is viewable for a full month on the net after the fights took place:
http://sports.yahoo.com/box;_ylt=Av59i1 ... ieeJQ5nYcB
With the likes of Gilbert Melendez, Joe Riggs and Bobby Southworth appearing on the card it is worth a look for the more 'hardcore' MMA fan.
Will we soon see boxing tread a similar path?