BoxRec

i agree with sweet scientist sorry for the mistake

p4p1 wrote:sorry i didnt read the last part of your post... i dont agree with u... you are an idiot

Maybe Buzzy can show poor old RABID how to use the quote and emoticon features. They are so hard to work out............................ if you aint too bright...

Collins2000 wrote:

p4p1 wrote:sorry i didnt read the last part of your post... i dont agree with u... you are an idiot

Maybe Buzzy can show poor old RABID how to use the quote and emoticon features. They are so hard to work out............................ if you aint too bright...

I Feel Fine wrote:

DaveV17 wrote:Ali never performed much if any better against Norton than he did in the first fight, so it is hard to make the case that conditioning was the reason he lost the first time. Ali had too much pride to face Norton the second time at anything less than 100% so I doubt the injured hand story. That story might be accepted by certain boxing people, but Ali wanted to win that fight and he wanted to win impressively. He didn't win impressively, and he probably didn't win it at all. The third fight was not even close, Norton was robbed. Ali did not want to have a 4th fight with Norton.

Norton's style was a style that troubled Ali and IMO, it always would.

What a bunch of bull. Ali talked about this in the post fight interview of the Norton rematch. Ali had to get injections in his hand. This was no secret. Ferdie Pacheco has talked about this, he had to inject Ali in the webs of his hands with Novocain. Cosell brought it up during the Lubbers fight. Ali, in the Norton rematch, rarely threw more than four right hands in a single round. He relied almost exclusively on his jab, and its not that there weren't opportunities to throw more right hands, there clearly were. On top of that, he didn't throw any serious right hands for the first six rounds of the Lubbers fight. Going into denial, are we? Anyway, it was closer than it should have been, but Ali won and not many dispute it. I think you're pushing it there.

Ali clearly trained better for the rematches, this would be rather evident to anyone who has seen the fights. And, again, the third fight was a bad decision, I thought Norton won, but suggesting that it is the very worst robbery in championship history shows definite lack of boxing knowledge. Hell, I've encountered people who thought Ali won.

As for Norton's style, I agree that it would always give Ali problems, but it was not the only factor. He never met Ali in his prime nor at 100%.

Another Ali shill's heartbreaking rendition of excuses for the hero of the Religion of Ali

Poor Ali.

Now tell us all about what good shape Cleveland Williams was in when he fought Ali.
After all, Cleve still had one kidney left. And he still had the remainder of his small intestine after ten feet was cut out.

Tell about what good shape Patterson was in for the first Ali fight.

Tell us all, was Archie Moore in his prime when he fought Ali?

Was Leon Spinks in real good shape when he was so disoriented he left for the ring without his low blow protector?

You have broken my heart with your VERY SAD rendition of the travails of poor Saint Ali.

If you send me your address, I will send you a purple Sympathy card.

All of us extend you our VERY DEEPEST sympathy.

tell us how stupid you are my guess is very

Ali is always a legend,

[quote="I Feel Fine"](slightly shorter version)

But is anyone seriously going to tell me that there aren't thousands-if not millions-of people in this country who don't like Ali because of the draft controversy? His popularity would be more leveled out than actually hurt.


This brings up an important point that crossed my mind while reading this thread. Ali is pretty much held up as a national treasure today, but people forget that during the 60's, and even the 70's, he was not a well-liked man among many segments of the population. He was a draft dodger (regardless of one's views on that highly-controversial war, this is what he was, laudible or contemptible, it's a fact), AND, he is a Black Muslim, a group that is terribly unpopular in the U.S. even today, EVEN AMONG a great many African-Americans, who consider themselves Christians. I once heard an anecdotal tale about a conversation between Ali and Sugar Ray Robinson, where Ali, in his most militant (brainwashed?) phase was spouting all this radical anti-American/anti-White rhetoric, when Robinson interrupted him and basically proceeded to tell him how wrong his views were. Robinson said he considered himself a Christian and emphasized the power of forgiveness and judging each individual based on how they treated you, and so forth. The upshot of my rambling is that there was a time, not too long ago, when Ali was not too far short of being a pariah and didn't enjoy across-the-board popularity even among blacks. This has, in large measure, been forgotten.

Hagler2002 wrote:Would he have become the greatest heavyweight of all time?

Yes, no doubt.

He is arguably the greatest ever HW despite this, although I personally rate him at number 2; I would never argue with anybody who said he was number 1.

Nobody ever beat better quality opposition than Ali did.

granberry wrote:Another Ali shill's heartbreaking rendition of excuses for the hero of the Religion of Ali

Poor Ali.

Now tell us all about what good shape Cleveland Williams was in when he fought Ali.
After all, Cleve still had one kidney left. And he still had the remainder of his small intestine after ten feet was cut out.

Tell about what good shape Patterson was in for the first Ali fight.

Tell us all, was Archie Moore in his prime when he fought Ali?

Was Leon Spinks in real good shape when he was so disoriented he left for the ring without his low blow protector?

You have broken my heart with your VERY SAD rendition of the travails of poor Saint Ali.

If you send me your address, I will send you a purple Sympathy card.

All of us extend you our VERY DEEPEST sympathy.

I've never held Ali's wins over Moore and Williams as being very important. Still, he would have beaten either of them at their best.

But, please, do continue rambling on about fixed Ali fights, the Doug Jones robberies and three hour Henry Cooper glove delays; mere figments of your imagination.

but people forget that during the 60's, and even the 70's, he was not a well-liked man among many segments of the population...

Yes, important points that I've made before. Granberry likes to forget it, but Ali in his prime was the most hated Heavyweight champion of all time, next to Jack Johnson I suppose. Few Heavyweights have gotten the kind of disrespect he received, and still receives by some.

I disagree with the stance taken by some that we never saw him at his best. In 66-67, he was as good as he was going to get, to the best I could envision. I couldn't really see where he was improving. If anything, he was probably headed in the direction where his dominance would make him cocky (Ali proved to be as susceptible to over-confidence as anyone) which might've suckered him into losing his title to an amped Frazier.

I just don't think we saw as much of him in his prime as we might have. But the Ali of 66-67 was as good as he was going to get, IMO.

I Feel Fine wrote: Ali in his prime was the most hated Heavyweight champion of all time, next to Jack Johnson I suppose.

IFeelfine parrots the clueless Ken Burns word for word.

Jess Willard was hated by the news media of his time.

Jack Dempsey was hated and called a draft dodger.

Ezzard Charles was disliked because he beat Joe Louis.

Liston was hated by more than Ali ever was. Sports Illustrated tried to keep Liston from getting his title shot.

Meanwhile the pandering to Ali by the clueless "media" is a repulsive example of Madison Avenue demonstrating its clout.

From now on give credit to Ken Burns when you parrot him, Ifeelfine

Goodnight... I suppose the idea is that we would have seen some more of the experience, toughness and physical strength of his 70's days combined with some more of his speed and reflexes of his 60's days. He was 25 when the exile began, I think it would have been interesting to have seen Ali in '68 or '69, I think he probably would have been at least a little better than he was at 25. Either way, I agree that the real loss was the quantity rather than the quality. It probably is more a case of seeing more of him at his best than it is of seeing him at his optimal best. He probably wasn't too far away from it when he fought Terrell and Folley.

As for granberry... as far as I know I've never heard Ken Burns discuss Ali. But you're simply bonkers if you think Ali was not a pariah. Liston was hated, for example, but he hardly inspired the same level of hate. Liston didn't have to schedule fights in Europe because people were boycotting him in America. Liston wasn't stripped of his title. You're living a dream world where Ali was a media creation and all of his accomplishments were manufactured, when the reality is Ali was hated for a long time by people like yourself and for at least the first half of his career he never got away with anything.

The open-ended question to me is about Ali's durability. His chin, his heart, his ability to soak up the punishment --- none of it was tested to anywhere near the degree it was in the 70's, & this to me is troubling --- the question stands, "Was Ali as tough & durable in his prime as he was in later years?"

If the answer is a resounding yes, I may have to re-think my assumption that, at least by way of a majority of fights, Louis would have proven his superior. But it's kind of a tough question without a rock-solid answer --- just how durable was the prime Ali? If Frazier caught up with him --- just hypothetically --- & started to break him down, would he last the distance as he did in 71, when he was a little slower but physically thicker & stronger? Or would he start to break down?

I just can't look at any of his prime fights (65-67, in my book) & say he is clearly as tough as he later turned out to be. On the other hand, once he matured physically following the first victory over Liston, there really wasn't a gruelling, tough fight he had that proved his mettle, nor was there a fight where he showed he wasn't as tough as he would later be.

He did show some resilency against Chuvalo; how much that counts for is another open question, Chuvalo wasn't Frazier. All the more reason, as I said, why it would have been interesting to have seen Ali in 68 or 69.

Even if I believed Louis was the greatest Heavyweight of all time, which I admittedly don't, I would have a hard time seeing him beat Ali. Just the style matchup.

I Feel Fine wrote:He did show some resilency against Chuvalo; how much that counts for is another open question, Chuvalo wasn't Frazier. All the more reason, as I said, why it would have been interesting to have seen Ali in 68 or 69.

Even if I believed Louis was the greatest Heavyweight of all time, which I admittedly don't, I would have a hard time seeing him beat Ali. Just the style matchup.

How long would Ken Norton have lasted with Joe Louis?

Doug Jones?

Terrell?

George Chuvalo?

Leon Spinks?

Louis would stop all of those men. And, in turn, he could very possibly lose to Liston or Foreman, especially at the ages of 22 and 32. Ali would laugh his way to victory against Conn, he wouldn't get knocked down by Braddock or Buddy Baer, and he wouldn't get staggered and dropped by some short lard ass in Galento.

If you look at all of Ali and Foreman's common opponents, Foreman did better against almost all of them. That didn't help him in their fight. Same deal with Morales against Barrera, Morales did better against Jones and Pacquiao and yet lost the trilogy. Hagler had an over all easier time with Hearns and Duran than Leonard did, yet lost their fight. Styles make fights, dingleberry.

I Feel Fine wrote:Louis would stop all of those men. And, in turn, he could very possibly lose to Liston or Foreman, especially at the ages of 22 and 32. Ali would laugh his way to victory against Conn, he wouldn't get knocked down by Braddock or Buddy Baer, and he wouldn't get staggered and dropped by some short lard ass in Galento.

If you look at all of Ali and Foreman's common opponents, Foreman did better against almost all of them. That didn't help him in their fight. Same deal with Morales against Barrera, Morales did better against Jones and Pacquiao and yet lost the trilogy. Hagler had an over all easier time with Hearns and Duran than Leonard did, yet lost their fight. Styles make fights, dingleberry.

Yeah granberry....what he said....

I Feel Fine wrote:Ali would laugh his way to victory against Conn, he wouldn't get knocked down by Braddock or Buddy Baer, and he wouldn't get staggered and dropped by some short lard ass in Galento.

Ifeelfine regurgitates the tired Religion of Ali talking points.

How long would Henry Cooper last againt Joe Louis?

Doug Jones? (would Louis struggle to a phony "decision" against Jones?)

Would Ken Norton last 39 rounds in 3 fights vs Louis?

How long would Leon Spinks last vs Louis?
30 rounds in two fights like the novice did against Ali?

Louis would eaten Ali alive.

One massive headache for Ali after the fight.

granberry wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:Ali would laugh his way to victory against Conn, he wouldn't get knocked down by Braddock or Buddy Baer, and he wouldn't get staggered and dropped by some short lard ass in Galento.

Ifeelfine regurgitates the tired Religion of Ali talking points.

How long would Henry Cooper last againt Joe Louis?

Doug Jones? (would Louis struggle to a phony "decision" against Jones?)

Would Ken Norton last 39 rounds in 3 fights vs Louis?

How long would Leon Spinks last vs Louis?
30 rounds in two fights like the novice did against Ali?

Louis would eaten Ali alive.

One massive headache for Ali after the fight.

Again, you can keep repeating yourself- and you often do- but these are all things we can say about George Foreman. Foreman destroyed Norton, and Foreman would have destroyed the rest of those men. Foreman demolished Chuvalo, who went the distance with Ali twice. Foreman destroyed Frazier, who always gave Ali a hard time. Foreman stopped Wepner sooner than Ali did. Has little bearing on how Foreman performed against Ali. Styles make fights, and it often happens that fighter C gives fighter A more difficulty than fighter B, but fighter A can still beat fighter B. Louis would do better against some of Ali's opponents, sure. But this means little as to how Louis would do against Ali. Moreover, while Louis would do better against the opponents you named, he absolutely would not have an easier time with Liston or Foreman, who both arguably could have beaten him. Ali would not have any more difficulty with any of Louis' opponents than Louis did. He wouldn't have had close fights with Conn's and Godoy's, he could get to 25 defenses as easily as Louis did in the weak era he fought in, and that's all there is to say.

Ali is a bigger, stronger man than Louis. Ali fought harder punchers than Louis. Louis never met a fighter with Ali's speed and reflexes. Louis would be unable to out jab Ali. Louis also had a nice habit of walking into right hands, and Ali could oblige him in that department as well.

Frantic Ali salesman "I Feel Fine" writes

"Ali would not have any more difficulty with any of Louis' opponents than Louis did. "

Punchless Ali couldn't hurt Chuvalo in 15 rounds and again in 12 rounds.

Or glass-chinned Ken Norton in 39 rounds in three fights.

Or overweight lightheavyweight Doug Jones.

But Ali could KO Max Baer in 4 rounds?

KO Paluino Uzcudun with a single punch?

KO Buddy Baer in one round?


"Ali is a bigger, stronger man than Louis. "

Desperate fairy tales coming from Ali salesman ifeelfine.

I have stood next to both of them.

Ali was 6'3". Louis was 6'2 1/2. (and that was an old Louis I stood and talked with).


"Ali fought harder punchers than Louis."

Max Baer?

Max Schmeling?

Jersey Joe Walcott?

You members of the religion of Ali know SO MUCH about punching power.

"Louis would be unable to out jab Ali. "

Ali was outjabbed by Doug Jones, Jimmy Young.

And even novice Leon Spinks.

I Feel Fine wrote: Ali would laugh his way to victory against Conn,

Like he did against Doug Jones?

.

Ali salesman writes:

I Feel Fine wrote: he [Ali} wouldn't get knocked down by Braddock or Buddy Baer.

But would Ali get knocked down by Henry Cooper or Sonny Banks?

.

You can't be serious... oh, wait, you aren't.

Ali was out jabbed by Doug Jones? In your "Ali is the great Satan" dream world he did, maybe, but not in reality.

Foreman, Liston and Shavers were harder hitters than Baer, Schmeling and Walcott granny. What can I tell you..

You stood next to Ali? That must have been an interesting meeting... Anyway, yes, Ali and Louis were close in height, though Ali was a bit taller. More importantly, however, Ali weighed as much as 10-15-20 pounds more than Louis on average, and had a four inch reach advantage.

Ali wouldn't have knocked Louis' opponents out as quickly, but he certainly would have not have a hard time beating any of the men Louis beat. Louis' era was much weaker than Ali's. Tell us dingleberry, how would Louis at 22 do against Liston? The same Louis who got knocked out by Schmeling. How would Louis at 32 do against Foreman?

If you're going to use Jimmy Young and Leon Spinks where Ali was either in the 230's or was a borderline Parkinsonian I could just as well bring up Louis getting his ass kicked by Ezzard Charles. Louis couldn't compete with Charles' hand speed and outside boxing skills, but he's going to beat a natural Heavyweight who weighed thirty pounds more than Charles and who had the same hand speed and great counter punching ability? I can play that game too, but I won't, because I recognize that the Louis who fought Charles was not the same fighter.

Almost every argument that you are using for Louis could just as well apply to Foreman or Liston. Liston stopped Patterson a lot sooner, stopped a prime Williams more quickly than Ali did, stopped a younger Folley sooner than Ali did... Foreman knocked out Norton, stopped Frazier twice, stopped Chuvalo, stopped Wepner sooner, stopped Lyle sooner... has no bearing on who was the better fighter or on who would beat who. You're just picking the opponents who its obvious Louis would have an easier time with, but are forgetting the top opponents Ali fought that Louis would not have an easy time with at all. Louis will score faster knock outs than Ali and will knock out some opponents Ali couldn't knock out, but when it comes to the big stage against the big names Louis will not have an easier time. Frazier is the only opponent of the big three (Liston, Frazier, Foreman) Ali fought that I can conceivably see Louis having an easier time with, and even that isn't a guarantee.

Fact is Ali fought in a much deeper era than Louis did and had to compete on a higher level of competition. Its like comparing Bernard Hopkins' era to Marvin Hagler's. Louis would have many struggles in Ali's era, might lose to a couple of people who Ali beat, while Ali would score the overrated 25 defenses in Louis' era.

Ali's win over Doug Jones was quite clear, and Ali was not in his prime, Louis was against Conn. In both cases they underestimated their smaller opponents and came out with tough wins, but for some reason Clay-Jones is considered a knock against Ali while Conn is considered one of Louis' great victories. Not sure how that works...

granberry wrote:Ali salesman writes:

I Feel Fine wrote: he [Ali} wouldn't get knocked down by Braddock or Buddy Baer.

But would Ali get knocked down by Henry Cooper or Sonny Banks?

.

Oh stop. You cannot even begin to compare Louis' chin to Ali's. Ali took flush right hands on the chin from the two recognized biggest punchers in Heavyweight history, Foreman and Shavers. Louis was put down nine times in his career, against some guys who were not very big Heavyweight punchers. Compare Conn, at a whopping 174 pounds (and Conn's weight was exaggerated to sell the fight) hurting Louis to Ali fighting Bob Foster and practically letting Foster hit him on the chin. Foster was the biggest puncher in Light Heavyweight history, Conn couldn't even knock out other Light Heavyweights. That right there is quite a striking example of the night and day difference between Ali and Louis' chins; Louis in his prime could be hurt badly by Light Heavyweights, while big natural Heavyweights with big punches had trouble hurting Ali. Compare Louis getting hurt and later dropped by a Galento left hook to the dozens of flush shots on the chin Ali took from Frazier. Compare Louis getting put down by Braddock to Ali taking flush shots on the chin against Quarry in their rematch. Compare Louis getting knocked through the ropes by a Buddy Baer left hook to Ali taking some flush left hooks from Bonavena. Compare Louis getting staggered badly by Ezzard Charles at 36 to Ali taking flush right hands on the chin by Shavers at 35. Not even close. Compare Ali taking some Liston left hooks to Louis being dropped by Walcott right hands. Ali was never out for a ten count while Louis was counted out twice.

When you're someone who hates Ali you have to ignore everything that happened in Ali's career between 1964-1975 (except for maybe Norton), and you have to focus almost exclusively on pre-prime Clay or shot Ali. Interesting how that works, but understandable.

This is another case where, even if I did believe Louis was the better fighter (which, again, I don't), I would not be able to say that Louis had the better chin than Ali.

Ali salesman I Feel Fine writes:

"Ali's win over Doug Jones was quite clear, "

Horsesh*t. The decision was loudly booed by the Madison Square Garden crowd and the ring was showered with peanuts.
I have never met a fighter who didn't say "Doug Jones beat Clay."

"and Ali was not in his prime"

Standard Ali salesman talking point.

The Doug Jones embarrassment was TWO fights before Ali supposedly was able to "beat" liston.

Ali salesman ifeelfine brings up the Ali-Bob Foster fight

Bad mistake for an Ali salesman.

Ali got cut by scrawny lightheavyweight Foster [ALI outweighed Foster by over FORTY pounds}.

Ali showed he had no punching power against against Foster [Joe Frazier knocked Foster cold in 2 rounds].
Ali leaned his weight on Foster until Foster got tired and went down with exhaustion.

"Louis in his prime could be hurt badly by Light Heavyweights."

Ali was staggered by Doug Jones 15 seconds into their fight, and several other times. Meanwhile Ali showed he had no punching power against Jones, who Ali outweighed by 25 pounds.

Ali was knocked down by 185 pound Henry Cooper.

Compare Ali quitting like a dog on his stool against Holmes and collecting his million dollars for throwing 5 punches in ten rounds

with Louis fighting to the end against Marciano in a fight that was not even a title fight.