BoxRec

Yeah, imagine the satisfaction Frank would get by, for instance, his fighter winning on a rival promotion of a big fight.

UK boxing needs the competition.

I'm starting to fall out with the "traditional route", because more than one good Brit has been held back by fighting for "proper" titles when they were straining at the leash to pursue world title ambitions.

We need to a fine line between domestic and "international" bouts.

If you look at Michael Brodie's traditional route and compare it to Hatton's WBU/IBO (and various IBF, WBA fights) journey, you will see one man who reaped rich rewards and one who isn't so fortunate.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Haye and Hatton promote guys of world class potential. I don't want to see anyone trapped at British level when they want to step up, and I don't want to see WBU/IBO titles abused either - only if they're a tool to help move to the best fights.

Max Molyneux wrote:

For some reason Booth and Haye say that he will never work with me again, but for the record, on March 12th after the Maccarinelli fight, Booth sent me a text to arrange a meeting as his contract with Frank Maloney had ended on that date. It said: Will be free to meet up and chat with you from Monday 24th, if you follow my meaning. Thanks again for a great promotion, and I hope the decisions we made in the run up didn’t piss you off too much. Thanks again. Adam. Hardly the ‘I don’t want anything to do with Warren’ talk that they are now spouting

Booth and Haye probably know talking anti Warren over the Internet wins you guys over so easily. Why refuse to work with a guy who gave him his biggest payday?

Haye and Booth don't have to win us over, they won us over long ago with their matchmaking and their willingness to take risks, the same reasons why Frank is so freely criticised.

Are you a fan of a long succession of soft-touches?? ... hence why you're Calzaghe fan.

Haye is great for the fans of boxing and will do wonders for the sports popularity over here if he can back up his words, which I'm sure he can

Haye wants the fighter to achieve and earn to his full potential, because this will then improve the promoter's cut. He says he wants to pay ppl what they're worth AND take 'em to the full of their abilities - which he feels only outfits like GBP are really doing at the moment.

PS, am I the only one excited about seeing GBP fighters on Hayemaker undercards (and presumably vice versa)?

BTW, the Warren-Arum deal also sounds good, if this produces matchups between promoters following Pavlik-Lockett. But will this deal count for anything post-Calzaghe?

Autobarn wrote: PS, am I the only one excited about seeing GBP fighters on Hayemaker undercards (and presumably vice versa)?

If that's what's going to happen then I'm excited as well

Remains to be seen how the GBP hookup works out. Lets be honest, Hennessy has/had a GBP hookup for Witter and Froch and hardly much materialised from that. One fight each on a GBP US show wasn't it?

nickd wrote:Remains to be seen how the GBP hookup works out. Lets be honest, Hennessy has/had a GBP hookup for Witter and Froch and hardly much materialised from that. One fight each on a GBP US show wasn't it?

GBP seem a lot more interested in this deal though, don't they. I mean, were they ever interested in Junior Witter? We know they want Haye, as GBP want a "heavyweight saviour" and looks more likely that something will happen.

Chambers2 wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote:

For some reason Booth and Haye say that he will never work with me again, but for the record, on March 12th after the Maccarinelli fight, Booth sent me a text to arrange a meeting as his contract with Frank Maloney had ended on that date. It said: Will be free to meet up and chat with you from Monday 24th, if you follow my meaning. Thanks again for a great promotion, and I hope the decisions we made in the run up didn’t piss you off too much. Thanks again. Adam. Hardly the ‘I don’t want anything to do with Warren’ talk that they are now spouting

Booth and Haye probably know talking anti Warren over the Internet wins you guys over so easily. Why refuse to work with a guy who gave him his biggest payday?

Haye and Booth don't have to win us over, they won us over long ago with their matchmaking and their willingness to take risks, the same reasons why Frank is so freely criticised.

Are you a fan of a long succession of soft-touches?? ... hence why you're Calzaghe fan.

Haye is great for the fans of boxing and will do wonders for the sports popularity over here if he can back up his words, which I'm sure he can

I'm a Calzaghe fan because he's a brilliant fighter, not because of soft touches.

Haye has only fought 2 or 3 tough fighters at best, his Euro defenses were hardly hard opponents and he looked gassed In many of them.

Gassed vs Mormeck, that Dane and bored Vs Abdoul.

I wish Haye was going to fight more than just 4 fightsat Heavyweight, It's hardly exciting to see him have a short term go at the weight and he won't become undisputed either really.

Max Molyneux wrote: I'm a Calzaghe fan because he's a brilliant fighter, not because of soft touches.

Haye has only fought 2 or 3 tough fighters at best, his Euro defenses were hardly hard opponents and he looked gassed In many of them.

In fairness Haye has almost achieved as much as Calzaghe in half as many fights.

Hmm not sure about Haye acheiving what Calzaghe has in half as many fights. Joe has had every belt at SMW, Haye preferred to move up rather than get the last one. Joe moved up, went to the US, with US judges and US ref and fought a very difficult spoiling cheating Hopkins to take a belt at a LH. Joe's undefeated, Haye's been stopped. This in no way demeans any of what Haye has achieved, its just in the context of comments posted that place Haye on a par with Calzaghe. Mind you, if Haye cleans up the HW scene and retires as champ then no one can knock him. But at this moment in time I feel he has not had an extensive career and has had only a few world title bouts. I would have preferred to see Haye take on Cunningham or at least defend his titles a bit. The HW scene doesn't interest me too much with it being so weak for so long, but perhaps thats why he is so keen - cos the competition is questionable in terms of skill. That said, regardless of quality at HW - he will deserve all credit if he wins the title.

Still have questions about Haye's chin as well.

Haye beating Mormeck and Mac is up there with Joe beating Lacy and Kessler. Haye didn't beat around the bush - ok he had his weight problems earlier so he had to get those fights quickly - but he has shown more confidence and ambition. It's not like Haye's trying to rest on his laurels.

Max Molyneux wrote: Haye has only fought 2 or 3 tough fighters at best, his Euro defenses were hardly hard opponents and he looked gassed In many of them.

Max you're a 100% bonafide eejit

Haye was often fighting guys with unbeaten records, who had actually trained properly to fight him, sometimes guys who had beaten him in the amateurs (or at least given him trouble) to boot.

This is leagues above Macca's "world" title reign, especially considering Haye demolished dangerous, Ring mag top 10 Alexander Gurov, to win the EBU belt and a WBC ranking.

Chambers2 wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote: Haye has only fought 2 or 3 tough fighters at best, his Euro defenses were hardly hard opponents and he looked gassed In many of them.

Max you're a 100% bonafide eejit

Get bent, we don't all take to hype until they prove the hype.

Seriously, if you think Mormeck was Euro class you may need your head testing!

Didn't say he was Euro class, said Haye looked gassed against him.

In fairness Haye has almost achieved as much as Calzaghe in half as many fights.

Calzaghe's done way more than Haye. Even If Haye wins a belt at Heavyweight he won't be an atg because he's hardly going to fight there for long. Calzaghe's moved up In weight and won too, was ugly but that was because Hopkins was a cheat.

He having more than 4 fights. The net 4 at o2 then America from what I understand.

Yes, I said Haye gassed at Euro level but I also said Haye gassed against Mormeck. Mormeck was clearly world class.

Max Molyneux wrote:

Chambers2 wrote:

Max Molyneux wrote: Haye has only fought 2 or 3 tough fighters at best, his Euro defenses were hardly hard opponents and he looked gassed In many of them.

Max you're a 100% bonafide eejit

Get bent, we don't all take to hype until they prove the hype.

Seriously, if you think Mormeck was Euro class you may need your head testing!

Didn't say he was Euro class, said Haye looked gassed against him.

In fairness Haye has almost achieved as much as Calzaghe in half as many fights.

Calzaghe's done way more than Haye. Even If Haye wins a belt at Heavyweight he won't be an atg because he's hardly going to fight there for long. Calzaghe's moved up In weight and won too, was ugly but that was because Hopkins was a cheat.

Joe has had around an extra 15 years in boxing so he's bound to havre done more!

Haye's never going to have 20 title defences, but don't be surprised if he has the same # of "defining fights" as Joe had.

Autobarn wrote:Yeah, imagine the satisfaction Frank would get by, for instance, his fighter winning on a rival promotion of a big fight.

UK boxing needs the competition.

I'm starting to fall out with the "traditional route", because more than one good Brit has been held back by fighting for "proper" titles when they were straining at the leash to pursue world title ambitions.

We need to a fine line between domestic and "international" bouts.

If you look at Michael Brodie's traditional route and compare it to Hatton's WBU/IBO (and various IBF, WBA fights) journey, you will see one man who reaped rich rewards and one who isn't so fortunate.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Haye and Hatton promote guys of world class potential. I don't want to see anyone trapped at British level when they want to step up, and I don't want to see WBU/IBO titles abused either - only if they're a tool to help move to the best fights.

I disagree - the 'traditional route' must be maintained and promoted as the ONLY way to the top. The way this will be achieved is by TV companies telling every single shite belt to get lost. Not every fight needs a belt. Hatton did make a lot of money but surely would have done so anyway without duping the public into thinking he was a world champion for all those years when he wasn't.

Max Molyneux wrote:Yes, I said Haye gassed at Euro level but I also said Haye gassed against Mormeck. Mormeck was clearly world class.

How was Haye gassed?? he paced the first half of the fight then turned up the heat at the halfway mark and stopped him, also how did a gassed Haye stop a granite chinned JMM (or Frago come to that).

Everything that is not JC is shit in your eyes, I find it amazing how any British boxing fan can criticise Haye so freely considering his style and his willingness to take on the best, which is a rare trait for a British boxer in his mid twenties.

(I also agree that the traditional route needs to be maintained)

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

Autobarn wrote:Yeah, imagine the satisfaction Frank would get by, for instance, his fighter winning on a rival promotion of a big fight.

UK boxing needs the competition.

I'm starting to fall out with the "traditional route", because more than one good Brit has been held back by fighting for "proper" titles when they were straining at the leash to pursue world title ambitions.

We need to a fine line between domestic and "international" bouts.

If you look at Michael Brodie's traditional route and compare it to Hatton's WBU/IBO (and various IBF, WBA fights) journey, you will see one man who reaped rich rewards and one who isn't so fortunate.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Haye and Hatton promote guys of world class potential. I don't want to see anyone trapped at British level when they want to step up, and I don't want to see WBU/IBO titles abused either - only if they're a tool to help move to the best fights.

I disagree - the 'traditional route' must be maintained and promoted as the ONLY way to the top. The way this will be achieved is by TV companies telling every single shite belt to get lost. Not every fight needs a belt. Hatton did make a lot of money but surely would have done so anyway without duping the public into thinking he was a world champion for all those years when he wasn't.

I can see your point Ian but a lot of fighters would disagree with you. If a British title ends up being a ball and chain - and it can be, for guys that want to achieve at world class, for whatever reason -then the British title is no good for said fighter. IF a WBU belt, or an international belt, can be used sensibly to improve a world ranking, then I'm all for it. (I did not like the way Hatton, Macca and Michael Gomez used WBU belts, because it's like, ok , this is a world title belt, but it's not a world title belt, but they're selling it as one). I only used Hatton as an example of the economic reality to fighters.

I like the way Haye used his EBU title but he was fortunate that the guy he splattered for the belt was in the WBC ratings. Otherwise he would have had to go a different route to get Mormeck. Haye didn't exactly go the "traditional route" because he never fought for the British - he & Hobson pulled out vs each other. Haye went a European/WBC contender route.

When the next batch of Olympians/Olympic hopefuls turn pro, they will come into pro boxing as world class amateurs and will be matched in a way to make them world class pros. In that case can you imagine the effect that having domestic tearup after domestic tearup would have - the fighters would risk leaving their best at a lower level. Or if they get by, and have to, let's say, go to Italy or Germany for an EBU shot, and end up getting robbed, this is a blip in their career.#

Whatever gets them ready for world class, and whatever gets them ranked, is most important. This to me is totally different to Arthur v Mitchell for the WBO - I don't see that as a worthy world title fight. (Ironically, a fight between a British/Commonwealth champ and a Euro champ, traditional in a sense but simply not world class.)

It depends what belt is good for what fighter in whatever weight division. The Commonwealth belt looks great for Darren Barker. He can fight international opponents of some quality - St Juste, Jantuah, Smichet, Andy Lee, Matthew Macklin, Daniels Geale and Dawson are ALL eligible to challenge for Darren's belt. Technically, Barker may not even need a British title to go places, maybe not even a Euro belt either. Now this I feel is a crucial question - Barker has it all ahead of him, but will Sky want to emphasise domestic title fights vs Elcock, etc, when he could be setting a foundation for the world stage?

I believe that if a fighter has realistic world class ambition, then at some point you have to ditch the traditional belts. How ready does a European title make you for a world title? I believe Jamie Moore's EBU fight with Baysangurov will prepare him for a world title, because the kid is an impressive international prospect - Jamie is more interested in the fight, and the WBC rating, than the EBU belt.

What's more important, making another British defence so you can have a Lonsdale belt, or starting to get international opponents/fringe contenders to develop your style?

Depends where you want to end up.

The traditional route doesn't have to be maintained. Boxing for me is about moving up levels until you have found your level. Whatever it takes to move the career forward, with purpose, is the best way to go about it whether the belt is traditional or made up, IMO.

If Haye wins the Heavyweight crown by beating Wladimir he'll have surpassed Calzaghe achievements within two years. Easily.

Calzaghe is a terrific fighter, with a good record.

But it has cave size holes in it.

Joe has done well with his super middle accomplishments. He has become a British great & won the big fights. But if Haye does big things at heavyweight, let's just say that is a much more important division (especially now with all the amateur stars coming up: Haye, Povetkin, Solis).

One or two major fights are much more important than 4 or 5 routine WBO defenses so Haye has plenty of time to catch up. Gurov, Mormeck and Macca are better than Eubank, Sobot, Giminez and Reid (the guys Joe was facing at similar stages).

Autobarn wrote:
1. I can see your point Ian but a lot of fighters would disagree with you. If a British title ends up being a ball and chain - and it can be, for guys that want to achieve at world class, for whatever reason -then the British title is no good for said fighter.

2. When the next batch of Olympians/Olympic hopefuls turn pro, they will come into pro boxing as world class amateurs and will be matched in a way to make them world class pros. In that case can you imagine the effect that having domestic tearup after domestic tearup would have - the fighters would risk leaving their best at a lower level.

3. Whatever gets them ready for world class, and whatever gets them ranked, is most important.

4. I believe that if a fighter has realistic world class ambition, then at some point you have to ditch the traditional belts.

5. What's more important, making another British defence so you can have a Lonsdale belt, or starting to get international opponents/fringe contenders to develop your style?

6. The traditional route doesn't have to be maintained. Boxing for me is about moving up levels until you have found your level. Whatever it takes to move the career forward, with purpose, is the best way to go about it whether the belt is traditional or made up, IMO.

Hello mate - I don't know how to do all that fancy dan quoting stuff so I've gone and edited your worthy contribution - not to be a sod but just so I can more easily address them.

1. Of course a lot of fighters would disagree with me - especially the ones who've earned decent money from pretending they are world champions by sitting on worthless belts. This shouldn't be allowed to happen - it's poison.

2. I don't know where you get the domestic tear up bit from - not from me, certainly.

3. The first bit I agree with and the second to some extent, tempered by the fact that world ratings are shite and corrupt. How the f*ck did Lockett make it into the WBC top echelon without fighting?

4. I agree. But at least they've won them first and hopefully it's a proper standard which is looked at genuinely on merit, not money.

5. The latter.

6. There shouldn't be any 'made up' belts to be able to use. They are a f*cking cancer on the sport. Promoters say that they give a chance for fighters to earn good money. And why do they earn good money from them? Because Joe Public doesn't understand they are a load of shite and neither do TV execs who employ cheerleading goons to confirm this misleading impression. Completely agree with your levels bit. But my point is that these invented, corrupt baubles muddy any valid perception of 'levels' in the first place.

Re #2, I just mean that fighters can have hard fights at British level and not save their best for the next level. It's a strong point also I used my own strong example.

I think now that British boxing has gone truly global (Warren making deals with Arum, Hayemaker joining forces with Golden Boy, Hatton in the mix too, as promoter) we might need a change of philosophy for developing our fighters.

Developing a fighter is an art and ppl don't always get it right.

More and more the world will be watching, and for example the Yanks aren't going to be bothered about watching, e.g. Frankie Gavin/Michael Maguire or whoever's the next big young pro, in British title fights.

I like watching good British title fights, but if a fighter wants to move on, let 'em (this has not always happened in UK boxing). So many fighters get bored or stale because they've been kept at one level.

There are so many ways, tools, to develop a fighter. The market is open and competitive. So IMO promoters have to grab what they can and use it to get their fighters where they want to be.

Sadly there isn't anything to stop ppl from making up belts. We've let just about everyone in. (By contrast Japan only recognise two world titles, WBC and WBA...on the other hand they are perhaps the most hermetic country in boxing and pretty much act like there is no world beyond them.)

Autobarn wrote:Sadly there isn't anything to stop ppl from making up belts.

Ah, but there is. BBBoC refuse to sanction the garbage and TV don't entertain them.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes re the British belt. No one is saying they have to hold on to it. Just give it up if you want to move on or if it's holding you back.

As for 'domestic tear ups'...if fighters 'keep' getting involved in these then perhaps that is their level, after all? (e.g. Kevin Anderson).

Following the traditional route doesn't mean Yanks won't be interested as the end of the traditional route is fighting someone who they WILL know. Not that I give a f*ck about them anyway.