BoxRec

Oh of course.

In your little ATG HW list, where do you have these
talentless 80s hacks that past themselves off as
paper champions or near contenders ?

I bet you have Witherspoon after Tom Sharkey..
Thomas after Carnera....
Bruno way beneath fellow Briton, Moir..

Wonder why self professed tough guy Teddy Atlas, a full grown man confronted "bully" 15 year old Mike Tyson with a pistol after Tyson alledgedly grabbed his neice? Wonder why Teddy didn't just settle the problem with his fists since he never misses a chance to tell people that Tyson was just a bully? Why didn't Teddy just push Mike, let him know who was the boss and wait for Mike to cave to the man who will stand up to him. Wonder if Teddy really believes that Mike is just a bully, or if maybe Teddy is resentful that he was not in Kevin Rooney's position when Mike was making all the money?

Big BJ and toih08, why am I not surprised that you don't appreciate Ayn Rand? It tells me a lot about someone that he/she considers Ayn Rand "bitter, and repetitive, and a crappy philosopher" but he/she can quote Teddy Atlas and Rocky Balboa.

Robinson wrote:Oh of course.

In your little ATG HW list, where do you have these
talentless 80s hacks that past themselves off as
paper champions or near contenders ?

I bet you have Witherspoon after Tom Sharkey..
Thomas after Carnera....
Bruno way beneath fellow Briton, Moir..

Well, that really brings up two issues:

• While Tom Sharkey and Bob Fitzsimmons were the best heavyweights of their era, at 180 and 165 pounds, respectively, they would stand no greater a chance at beating a top heavyweight of the 1980s than Marvin Hagler or Bobby Czyz would have.
• In producing a list of the greatest heavyweights of all time, there's always a conflict between ranking a fighter based on how good he was at his time and ranking him based on how good he is compared to the best ever.

John Galt wrote:Wonder why self professed tough guy Teddy Atlas, a full grown man confronted "bully" 15 year old Mike Tyson with a pistol after Tyson alledgedly grabbed his neice? Wonder why Teddy didn't just settle the problem with his fists since he never misses a chance to tell people that Tyson was just a bully? Why didn't Teddy just push Mike, let him know who was the boss and wait for Mike to cave to the man who will stand up to him. Wonder if Teddy really believes that Mike is just a bully, or if maybe Teddy is resentful that he was not in Kevin Rooney's position when Mike was making all the money?

Teddy Atlas might have been good with his fists at one point, but he doesn't strike me as someone who's stupid.

BBJ

How many Sharkey and Fitz fights have you seen ?

If i had a 15 yo kid that did that id give him a good
hiding, whoever he was. I would never think to
pull a gun...trouble is how much of all that story is
truth or legend.

I like Atlas alot, but I say this after reading his biography..
he has a mega chip on his shoulder and thinks he
has an authority over a fighter, that he does not
have.

Contray to what alot of people think, fighters are
thinking inteligent beings that do know what is
best for them..even when some grand standing
trainer stands on their shoulders yelling 'look at
me look at me..it was me who won not the fighter'.

John Galt wrote:Wonder why self professed tough guy Teddy Atlas, a full grown man confronted "bully" 15 year old Mike Tyson with a pistol after Tyson alledgedly grabbed his neice? Wonder why Teddy didn't just settle the problem with his fists since he never misses a chance to tell people that Tyson was just a bully? Why didn't Teddy just push Mike, let him know who was the boss and wait for Mike to cave to the man who will stand up to him. Wonder if Teddy really believes that Mike is just a bully, or if maybe Teddy is resentful that he was not in Kevin Rooney's position when Mike was making all the money?

Big BJ and toih08, why am I not surprised that you don't appreciate Ayn Rand? It tells me a lot about someone that he/she considers Ayn Rand "bitter, and repetitive, and a crappy philosopher" but he/she can quote Teddy Atlas and Rocky Balboa.

Ayn Rand was bitter and she produced a callous, heartless and amoral philiosophy...

Tyson was a monster and he sexually assaulted Teddy Atlas' twelve year old niece...She wasn't the only girl or young woman that Mike Tyson sexually assaulted up in the Catskill Mountains under the watchful (sic) eyes of Cus D'Amato...That's why people in the know never doubted Desiree Washington's accusation, Don King's obscurantism notwithstanding...What was Teddy Atlas supposed to do? Tyson was bigger than him and in better shape, Rooney's boxing career having being ended as the result of a bad back...If a monster like Tyson sexually assaulted my niece I would have pulled a gun on him too or prayed I had the courage to do so...

After Jim Jacobs died, it appears that Mike Tyson didn't want to pay the price needed to stay at the top. Notice that Tyson was in shape and right to fight when Kevin Rooney was his trainer. While I am not saying that Rooney was a great trainer, it is likely that he made Tyson keep his nose to the grindstone with Jacobs' backing.

- Chuck Johnston

tois08 wrote "Ayn Rand was bitter and she produced a callous, heartless and amoral philiosophy..."

Ayn Rand opposed socialism/communism, she didn't think that anyone should have to live his/her life for someone else's benefit. She believed in freedom. It is sad that someone who believed in freedom for everyone would be considered "callous, heartless, and amoral." Callous, heartless, and amoral better describes the "collectivists/progressives" that have enslaved people around the world.

Teddy Atlas is the man who continually claims that Tyson lacked heart. If he believed that, why did he need the gun. If a bully can be backed down by anyone who stands up to him, the gun shouldn't be necessary.

Teddy Atlas was not "standing up" to Tyson when he pulled the piece on him, he went there to threaten him. There's a difference.

Ayn Rand opposed socialism/communism, she didn't think that anyone should have to live his/her life for someone else's benefit. She believed in freedom. It is sad that someone who believed in freedom for everyone would be considered "callous, heartless, and amoral." Callous, heartless, and amoral better describes the "collectivists/progressives" that have enslaved people around the world.

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." I suspect Christ would have lent a hand to a broke friend...And for the record my favorite political philosophers are Burke and Rousseau...

Teddy Atlas is the man who continually claims that Tyson lacked heart. If he believed that, why did he need the gun. If a bully can be backed down by anyone who stands up to him, the gun shouldn't be necessary.

The irony that this topic arises in a thread about irony is in itself ironic...

A sixteen year old young man who would go on to be the most feared fighter on the planet sexually assaults a man's twelve year old niece and some are criticizing him for threatening that young man with a gun instead of his fists..

Mike Tyson is a monster...Rooney was smaller than him and had a bad back to boot...Instead of discussing why Rooney pulled a piece and not beat him him up let's discuss why Mike Tyson sexually assaulted a twelve year old girl or why he raped Desiree Washington...
If that was Joe Frazier's or Rocky Marciano's twelve year old niece I suspect we would have never heard of Mike Tyson....

Frazier would have half killed him the way he half killed that cracker back in Beaufort who called him the n-word...

toih08 wrote "Mike Tyson is a monster...Rooney was smaller than him and had a bad back to boot...Instead of discussing why Rooney pulled a piece and not beat him him up let's discuss why Mike Tyson sexually assaulted a twelve year old girl or why he raped Desiree Washington..."

Because we were not discussing whether Tyson was a rapist. We are discussing the idea that some of you think Tyson was a bully who would not fight back if someone stood up to him. Atlas has said the same. Why didn't he expose Mike as a bully? Why did 25,26 year old Teddy need a gun to confront a 15 year old "bully"? The bad back theory does not hold water. Atlas himself, in his book details many fights he has been involved in since confronting the 15 year old with a gun.

John Galt wrote:toih08 wrote "Mike Tyson is a monster...Rooney was smaller than him and had a bad back to boot...Instead of discussing why Rooney pulled a piece and not beat him him up let's discuss why Mike Tyson sexually assaulted a twelve year old girl or why he raped Desiree Washington..."

Because we were not discussing whether Tyson was a rapist. We are discussing the idea that some of you think Tyson was a bully who would not fight back if someone stood up to him. Atlas has said the same. Why didn't he expose Mike as a bully? Why did 25,26 year old Teddy need a gun to confront a 15 year old "bully"? The bad back theory does not hold water. Atlas himself, in his book details many fights he has been involved in since confronting the 15 year old with a gun.

You miss the forest for the trees or is it the trees for the forest. Not being of the same stature as Mr. Tyson ,Teddy Atlas threatened him with a weapon instead of his fists for sexually assaulting his twelve year old niece...When men of equal stature to Mr Tyson, read Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Lenox Lewis, Danny Williams, and Kevin McBride confronted Mr. Tyson he revealed his true nature...The bully is a bully because he can beat up just about everybody but not quite everybody...When he confronts the one or few people he can't beat up his true nature is revealed...That is a story that has been played out on every playground since the beginning of time...

My2Sense wrote:

Robinson wrote:How good a trainer was Rooney ??

Not very.

I know everyone makes fun of the guy that replaced Rooney (I forget his name, Aaron Snowell I think), but the fact remains he is a far more accomplished trainer than Rooney. He trained Frankie Randall to score his humongous upset over JC Chavez, and he also molded fighters like Julian Jackson and Tim Austin into very formidable fighters.

I don't know too much about Snowell so I cannot comment or make a judgement of how good he was as a trainer. However, Rooney was the only trainer (apart from Teddy Atlas) that knew Mike Tyson mentally as well as physically. Rooney commanded Tyson's respect & full attention & he got it. All the trainers after Rooney, despite the likes of Giachetti, Tommy Brooks, being well-qualified, didn't know Tyson mentally.

I remember Tyson stating a few times that if he underperformed in training or a fight, Rooney would tell him in no uncertain terms that he better stop slacking & start improving.

Rooney may not have the best record as trainers go, but he was hte most suitable trainer for Tyson, for when they were together, Tyson had a perfect record.

Chuck1052 wrote:After Jim Jacobs died, it appears that Mike Tyson didn't want to pay the price needed to stay at the top. Notice that Tyson was in shape and right to fight when Kevin Rooney was his trainer. While I am not saying that Rooney was a great trainer, it is likely that he made Tyson keep his nose to the grindstone with Jacobs' backing.

- Chuck Johnston

My understanding is the same as Chuck's. The beginning of the end for Tyson came with the death of Jim Jacobs. Jacobs was an athlete himself, and seemed to relate well to Tyson. It was apparent that Tyson listened to Jacobs, and had a lot of faith in him. Jacobs was also a very smart guy, and knew how to fend off the Don Kings of this world from his fighter. Although no dummy himself, Cayton did not have the same kind of relationship with Tyson. Of course, its all speculation, but I often wonder how differently Tyson's career might have turned out if Jacobs had not died.

All this talk about Rooney I thought Teddy Atlas had a lot to do with Tyson's formative years Untill Tyson propositioned Teddy's young daugther

"Propositioned" is not the appropriate word. You proposition someone in a bar, legally. Tyson fondled her and said, "I'm gonna' fornicate you." Even if she hadn't been a 12-year-old, that would be inappropriate.

Big Bad John wrote:

My2Sense wrote:

Big Bad John wrote:Rooney made Tyson a legend. To argue that the shithead who showed up to the Douglas fight without an Enswell was better is stupid and wrong.

So why has Rooney had so much less success?

He molded Mike Tyson into the biggest thing that had ever hit boxing. How's that not a success?

Who said it wasn't?

I said that Snowell has had markedly more success as a trainer than Rooney has, and it's true.

Rooney never was good enough to guide a 15-1 or 20-1 underdog (or anyone, for that matter) to beat a living legend and top P4P rated fighter, as Snowell did with Frankie Randall.

Nor was he good enough to take a fighter coming off a devastating loss and mold him into a P4P entrant, as Snowell did with Julian Jackson after he lost to McCallum.

And Rooney never proved (not even with Tyson) that he could keep a fighter consistent and dominant over a long period of time and through some genuine adversity, as Snowell did with Tim Austin.

No question Snowell f*cked up badly in the Douglas fight (and in some other isolated instances), but we never saw Rooney prove he could do any better under the same circumstances, so that in itself doesn't prove Rooney was better. Heck, Snowell actually made an effort to teach Tyson some new things that Rooney hadn't. Rooney did just enough to get Tyson to the top spot in the division, and then was gone before we saw how well he could work with Tyson on defending that position.

Chuck1052 wrote:Notice that Tyson was in shape and right to fight when Kevin Rooney was his trainer.

That there is part of the myth of Rooney and Tyson IMO.

Tyson had a few fights with Rooney (namely Berbick and Tucker) where he didn't look quite in top shape, but people tended to overlook that because he managed to power his way to wins anyway. As I said in another thread, I thought Tyson looked in even more questionabe condition in those fights than he did against Douglas, and he didn't fight much differently either.

IMO, Rooney was a product of Tyson, and not the other way around.

Hence, Tyson continued to have success well after Rooney, whereas the opposite isn't true.

My2Sense wrote:I said that Snowell has had markedly more success as a trainer than Rooney has, and it's true.

Rooney never was good enough to guide a 15-1 or 20-1 underdog (or anyone, for that matter) to beat a living legend and top P4P rated fighter, as Snowell did with Frankie Randall.

Nor was he good enough to take a fighter coming off a devastating loss and mold him into a P4P entrant, as Snowell did with Julian Jackson after he lost to McCallum.

And Rooney never proved (not even with Tyson) that he could keep a fighter consistent and dominant over a long period of time and through some genuine adversity, as Snowell did with Tim Austin.

No question Snowell f*cked up badly in the Douglas fight (and in some other isolated instances), but we never saw Rooney prove he could do any better under the same circumstances, so that in itself doesn't prove Rooney was better. Heck, Snowell actually made an effort to teach Tyson some new things that Rooney hadn't. Rooney did just enough to get Tyson to the top spot in the division, and then was gone before we saw how well he could work with Tyson on defending that position.

Randall was such an underdog against Chavez because Chavez was badly, badly overrated, and because he was a huge betting favorite among Mexicans.

Did he train a lot of champions? Sure. That was because he was Don King's lackey. His major skill was to get fighters to trust Don King. Check out what he said in an interview following Mike Tyson's KO loss to Danny Williams:

Gulf Coast Boxing: Where can Tyson go from here?

Aaron Snowell: Tyson needs to go back to Don King. King has the experience, the training facilities and the “know how”, to get a fighter going. King can help him get “the finance with the romance”. King did it for Holyfield; he gave Holyfield the opportunity to fight Tyson at the end of his career and he made more money in those two fights than he did over his entire career. Don King is directly responsible for revitalizing Holyfield’s career.

Don King brought Tyson out of prison, wisely picked fights for him, starting out with Pete McNeeley and eventually winning a title against Frank Bruno.

Mike is 38, he needs to realize that he cannot fight like he is 19 years old again. Foreman is a prime example of how an older fighter is supposed to fight. If Mike is to continue, he will have to learn how to get motivated for his fights, he will need to pace himself and not run out of steam so early in the fight.

Basically, Rooney told Tyson not to trust Don King, and Al Snowell told Tyson to trust Don and Carl King. Outside of what the two did as trainers, Snowell has consistently gotten fighters to work with King, and that's pure bullshit. Sure, by working with King, he got to be in a lot of fighters' corners, but he simply was NOT a good adviser of fighters.

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

John Galt wrote:toih08 wrote "Mike Tyson is a monster...Rooney was smaller than him and had a bad back to boot...Instead of discussing why Rooney pulled a piece and not beat him him up let's discuss why Mike Tyson sexually assaulted a twelve year old girl or why he raped Desiree Washington..."

Because we were not discussing whether Tyson was a rapist. We are discussing the idea that some of you think Tyson was a bully who would not fight back if someone stood up to him. Atlas has said the same. Why didn't he expose Mike as a bully? Why did 25,26 year old Teddy need a gun to confront a 15 year old "bully"? The bad back theory does not hold water. Atlas himself, in his book details many fights he has been involved in since confronting the 15 year old with a gun.

You miss the forest for the trees or is it the trees for the forest. Not being of the same stature as Mr. Tyson ,Teddy Atlas threatened him with a weapon instead of his fists for sexually assaulting his twelve year old niece...When men of equal stature to Mr Tyson, read Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Lenox Lewis, Danny Williams, and Kevin McBride confronted Mr. Tyson he revealed his true nature...The bully is a bully because he can beat up just about everybody but not quite everybody...When he confronts the one or few people he can't beat up his true nature is revealed...That is a story that has been played out on every playground since the beginning of time...

So Atlas would try to take on a Shannon Briggs and his co-trainer in a fist fight ?
He would get in several fights or stand up to tough guys, like he described in his
bio, while training Moorer.

Yet for a 15yo, he pulls a gun. That to me is inconsistent.

Tyson was bad for assaulting the child, that was wrong, but lets not forget
he was a child himself at such an age.

Do you guys think Cus and co were wrong for sacking Atlas after he
pulled the hand gun on Tyson ?

Big Bad John wrote:"Propositioned" is not the appropriate word. You proposition someone in a bar, legally. Tyson fondled her and said, "I'm gonna' eff you." Even if she hadn't been a 12-year-old, that would be inappropriate.

Its funny, now dont get me wrong, I have no doubt that Tyson did
something bad to the young girl. But on this thread alone, not to
mention the countless articles, books and doco's made on the matter
how often the story and the girls age, and relationship to Atlas changes.

My2Sense wrote:

Chuck1052 wrote:Notice that Tyson was in shape and right to fight when Kevin Rooney was his trainer.

That there is part of the myth of Rooney and Tyson IMO.

Tyson had a few fights with Rooney (namely Berbick and Tucker) where he didn't look quite in top shape, but people tended to overlook that because he managed to power his way to wins anyway. As I said in another thread, I thought Tyson looked in even more questionabe condition in those fights than he did against Douglas, and he didn't fight much differently either.

IMO, Rooney was a product of Tyson, and not the other way around.

Hence, Tyson continued to have success well after Rooney, whereas the opposite isn't true.

I have to agree with what you said here.

Robinson wrote:

Big Bad John wrote:"Propositioned" is not the appropriate word. You proposition someone in a bar, legally. Tyson fondled her and said, "I'm gonna' eff you." Even if she hadn't been a 12-year-old, that would be inappropriate.

Its funny, now dont get me wrong, I have no doubt that Tyson did
something bad to the young girl. But on this thread alone, not to
mention the countless articles, books and doco's made on the matter
how often the story and the girls age, and relationship to Atlas changes.

Mike Tyson admitted, "I played a little grab-ass."

Robinson wrote:

TheOneIsHere2008 wrote:

John Galt wrote:toih08 wrote "Mike Tyson is a monster...Rooney was smaller than him and had a bad back to boot...Instead of discussing why Rooney pulled a piece and not beat him him up let's discuss why Mike Tyson sexually assaulted a twelve year old girl or why he raped Desiree Washington..."

Because we were not discussing whether Tyson was a rapist. We are discussing the idea that some of you think Tyson was a bully who would not fight back if someone stood up to him. Atlas has said the same. Why didn't he expose Mike as a bully? Why did 25,26 year old Teddy need a gun to confront a 15 year old "bully"? The bad back theory does not hold water. Atlas himself, in his book details many fights he has been involved in since confronting the 15 year old with a gun.

You miss the forest for the trees or is it the trees for the forest. Not being of the same stature as Mr. Tyson ,Teddy Atlas threatened him with a weapon instead of his fists for sexually assaulting his twelve year old niece...When men of equal stature to Mr Tyson, read Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Lenox Lewis, Danny Williams, and Kevin McBride confronted Mr. Tyson he revealed his true nature...The bully is a bully because he can beat up just about everybody but not quite everybody...When he confronts the one or few people he can't beat up his true nature is revealed...That is a story that has been played out on every playground since the beginning of time...

So Atlas would try to take on a Shannon Briggs and his co-trainer in a fist fight ?
He would get in several fights or stand up to tough guys, like he described in his
bio, while training Moorer.

Yet for a 15yo, he pulls a gun. That to me is inconsistent.

Tyson was bad for assaulting the child, that was wrong, but lets not forget
he was a child himself at such an age.

Do you guys think Cus and co were wrong for sacking Atlas after he
pulled the hand gun on Tyson ?

Let's set this up...

" ...In 1982, after a 16-year-old Tyson allegedly sexually molested Teddy's 11-year-old female relative, Teddy put a gun to his head, then fired it into the air. That ended Atlas's career as Tyson's first tutor."

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sports/features/5637/

A sixteen year old boy is a young man...An eleven year old girl is a child unless we are in Saudi Arabia where the age of consent is nine:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1798.htm

Tyson was 5'9 ,200 pounds...Teddy Atlas weighed about 135 pounds and had a bad back to boot...He would have been an idiot to confront Tyson with his fists...

[quote="

Because we were not discussing whether Tyson was a rapist. We are discussing the idea that some of you think Tyson was a bully who would not fight back if someone stood up to him. Atlas has said the same. Why didn't he expose Mike as a bully? Why did 25,26 year old Teddy need a gun to confront a 15 year old "bully"? The bad back theory does not hold water. Atlas himself, in his book details many fights he has been involved in since confronting the 15 year old with a gun.[/quote]

You miss the forest for the trees or is it the trees for the forest. Not being of the same stature as Mr. Tyson ,Teddy Atlas threatened him with a weapon instead of his fists for sexually assaulting his twelve year old niece...When men of equal stature to Mr Tyson, read Buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, Lenox Lewis, Danny Williams, and Kevin McBride confronted Mr. Tyson he revealed his true nature...The bully is a bully because he can beat up just about everybody but not quite everybody...When he confronts the one or few people he can't beat up his true nature is revealed...That is a story that has been played out on every playground since the beginning of time...[/quote]

So Atlas would try to take on a Shannon Briggs and his co-trainer in a fist fight ?
He would get in several fights or stand up to tough guys, like he described in his
bio, while training Moorer.

Yet for a 15yo, he pulls a gun. That to me is inconsistent.

Tyson was bad for assaulting the child, that was wrong, but lets not forget
he was a child himself at such an age.

Do you guys think Cus and co were wrong for sacking Atlas after he
pulled the hand gun on Tyson ?[/quote]

Let's set this up...

" ...In 1982, after a 16-year-old Tyson allegedly sexually molested Teddy's 11-year-old female relative, Teddy put a gun to his head, then fired it into the air. That ended Atlas's career as Tyson's first tutor."

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sports/features/5637/

A sixteen year old boy is a young man...An eleven year old girl is a child unless we are in Saudi Arabia where the age of consent is nine:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1798.htm

Tyson was 5'9 ,200 pounds...Teddy Atlas weighed about 135 pounds and had a bad back to boot...He would have been an idiot to confront Tyson with his fists...[/quote]

Why ? are you scared of kids if they are bigger than you.

So he was 16 ? I thought he was 15 at the time....and she
is 11 now. Ok in any case what Tyson did was bad and
fucked up. I have some one close to me that was severely
assaulted at 9. So you do not have to sit and preach about
sexual assault.

At the same time, what Tyson did fully do has never been
clarified, and how Atlas reacted was well...enough said.

How Cus handled it is for he and Tyson to know.

Tyson fanatics are simply insane. Not only do they make excuses for him losing to Buster Douglas, but they make excuses for him being a child molestor and a rapist!