BoxRec

Datsue wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: No, Peter doesn;t have the ability to close the gap or the head movement to evade Vitali's telegraphed shots. Beating Vitali isn't that hard, step in quickly with jabs and rights, slip his jab and throw right counters to the body head, punch in combination at mid and close range to the body and head, back him up and hes fucked. If Sanders wasn't a 2round fighter he would have had Vitali but he was doen after 2rounds. In today's heavyweight division few can do these basic techniques but 1 man in Haye will and will KO Vitali. Wlad is a harder style for Haye but he should KO him too.

Not as confident as you are mate, but yes, I broadly have to agree with you. I think Haye certainly has a chance; Lewis's chin wasn't exactly cast-iron was it, & he didn't do too badly against the Elder Klit. Also, I cannot see the "unbeatable fighter" that others here are raving about. & frankly anyone will go if you catch them right. It don't matter if they're King Kong, Vitali Klitschko or Godfvckingzilla...

BTW: Not, actually, just put in to annoy the Klit-huggers, though it will, as they all seem terribly sensitive on behalf of someone who's six-&-a-half feet tall (isn 't that odd? Wonder why): find some footage of Jess Willard. It's eerie man, I tell you; not only the size but the clumsy effectiveness & employment of the physical tools...

Lewis was a genuinely huge heavyweight, who was only stopped by two massive punches.

Haye is by far a naturally smaller man, and has been put over by two cruiserweights and a super middleweight.

Big difference. I'd give haye a chance against Wlad, but very little against Vitali.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Vitali is a lot better than Willard, who was a big lumbering farmhand who took to boxing.

Vitali is a very good athelete, he has a tremendous chin, good power, and most of all, he knows how to make the most of his physical advantages. Frazier would struggled to reach Vitali, who has a huge reach and knows how to use his height to make it even harder to overcome.

Vitali is also good on the inside, where he knows how to wrestle and hold. A big problem for an inside fighter like Frazier.

Liston would have been big enough and with a long enough reach, but Frazier, I think not.

Vitaly has a tremendous chin, which is his biggest asset. But let's be honest, Peter is no good, right?

Interesting that vitali/frazier should come up again .. we had a thread a while ago and I was the only guy to give Vitali a good chance in that one, I think I got laughed out of town.

Riddick Blowe wrote:Interesting that vitali/frazier should come up again .. we had a thread a while ago and I was the only guy to give Vitali a good chance in that one, I think I got laughed out of town.

I think I would have agreed if I contributed.

I actually think Frazier is incredibly overrated based on his trilogy with Ali. He lacked the speed or power or Tyson and his durability was only really tested by Foreman, who destroyed him. He never faced Lyle or Shavers two of the biggest punchers around, and his prime was pretty brief also.

Whilst Vitali certainly has his limitations, he knows how to fight big, and against someone as small as Frazier, I believe that would be enough. Frazier lacked the speed to close the gap quickly enough to dent Vitali in my opinion, though he could possibly have outworked him over the distance.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Liston would have been big enough and with a long enough reach, but Frazier, I think not.

No way could Klitschko survive Fraziers pace and power.

I honestly don't get this. Frazier had some stylistic weaknesses when it came to taking big shots on the way inside early in a fight, but Klitschko has just looked impressive against Sam Peter. I'll repeat that, Sam Peter -- a man is so far removed from being a quality heavyweight that he could come to the ring wrapped in a label reading "Genuine Italian plum variety in own juice".

Vitaly has a tremendous chin, of that I have no doubt, he also uses range well, and leans back away from punches, which, combined with his height, makes him hard to reach. But look at his wins and who they were against. Kirk Johnson -- who, as if being rubbish wasn't enough of a hindrance, was so fat that his breasts could have given a round of applause when they slapped together when he bent over to squeeze through the ropes -- a semi retired Corrie Sanders (when his chin was really, really tested, because it is oft forgotten that he took some bombs flush on the chin in that one) and against a 20 stone Danny Williams. Hardly a murderers row of contenders, eh?

Frazier beat Muhammed frickin' Ali, for crying out loud. Not to mention the fact he was awesome, and Vitaly isn't.

Exactly. Klitschko beat a bunch of old men and/or lardy fatties -- all these guys like Ed Mahone, Corrie Sanders, Johnson, Williams, Peter etc...

People are so obsessed with the weight of these guys (mostly deposited around jiggling guts, heavy flapping breasts) they think Klitschko is some kind of killer. Big frickin deal, when these disinterested fatties are knackered after 7 rds, Frazier would still be going. Fraziers trying to decapitate you in round 15.

Well Joe's a legend of course and you don't want to knock it, but styles make fights and Vitali would be all wrong for Joe.
Frazier would have to virtualy leap through the air to land on Vitali's chin, and even if he did land, the big Ukranian would likely take it no problem. Sander's, fat though he was, probably had one of the single hardest left hooks you'll ever see: absolutely murderous.

Meanwhile, Joe's chin wasn't exactly great. Bonavena & Ali weren't big punchers, and both hurt him badly.
As painful as it sounds, Vitali would have had a great chance of "upsetting" Smokin' Joe.

As for the worst champ ever? You think Vitali would have keeled over from a miss, like Seldon? You think Hide could have punched it out on even terms with Lewis? And most of the 80's heavies would have likely got ready to face Vitali with a couple of lines the night before.

I'm logging off and going home before I get so angry that a vein pops out of my forehead. I'm beside myself that Frazier is being run down and a pug with height like Klitschko is being venerated.

Dear God.

Its beyond belief.

How come Nikolay Valuevs massive, massive height and reach couldn't save him from Chagaev walking it against him? Oh yeah, because Chagaev had much more talent.

Frazier is an all out fighter, he might lose some early rds, but he comes on to break them down late. Vitali would look so unbelievably slooow against the peak Frazier of 71 who beat Ali.

As has been said, Vitali has a great chin but his stamina sucks, his mouth was wide open from the second round against Peter, unless he stops Frazier within 2/3 rounds I can't see how he would win. Can you imagine him fighting at Frazier's pace? I also think Frazier will be way too quick for Vitali instead of providing him with a static target for him to land on round after round. Vitali may have taken a couple of Sanders left hooks but Frazier will land a hell of a lot more than a fat golfer who tires after a round or 2.

Size is important to a degree, but lets look at exactly who Vitali has beaten before we start ranking him with the great champs. His greatest achievement is still either beating old Sanders or his performance against a visibly old Lennox Lewis.

MightyWarrior wrote:Well Joe's a legend of course and you don't want to knock it, but styles make fights and Vitali would be all wrong for Joe.
Frazier would have to virtualy leap through the air to land on Vitali's chin, and even if he did land, the big Ukranian would likely take it no problem. Sander's, fat though he was, probably had one of the single hardest left hooks you'll ever see: absolutely murderous.

Meanwhile, Joe's chin wasn't exactly great. Bonavena & Ali weren't big punchers, and both hurt him badly.
As painful as it sounds, Vitali would have had a great chance of "upsetting" Smokin' Joe.

As for the worst champ ever? You think Vitali would have keeled over from a miss, like Seldon? You think Hide could have punched it out on even terms with Lewis? And most of the 80's heavies would have likely got ready to face Vitali with a couple of lines the night before.

I agree, I think people can't bear to even envisage Klit getting the better of a top 70's era heavyweight, but you don't just need to look at the size difference.

People say Lewis was washed up against Klit but who can honestly say Lennox would have had no problems whatsoever with Vitali in his prime? Obviously they are two different fighters entirely, but if Ray Mercer can push Lennox all the way. Klit can. overhand I can just picture you gawping at the screen, ready to hang yourself reading this, but think - Vitali would have given prime Lennox the same problems. WIthout the cut Lewis stops him late - but Frazier is no Lewis.

The deficiency in size and reach obviously wouldn't have been a problem for Frazier against someone like Valuev. But Vitali is no Valuev either. Vitali, for his flaws, has proved himself elite, intelligent. The fight could quite conceivably pan out with Frazier taking so many shots trying to get inside, off a decent puncher, and not being able to land enough on the awkward Vitali to press the advantage. Even if he did land single shots, we know Vitali can take them.

i'm not saying Klit would definitely win, I just said he would have a damn good chance, I would say pickem fight.

You're right Frazier is no Lewis -- Lewis is too lazy & languid & prone to getting tired.

I think Vitali is too slow to land that much on the bobbing & weaving Frazier, its not a 260 lb lump of lumbering flesh hes trying to plant his telegraphed right on.

No chance.

Riddick Blowe wrote:

MightyWarrior wrote:Well Joe's a legend of course and you don't want to knock it, but styles make fights and Vitali would be all wrong for Joe.
Frazier would have to virtualy leap through the air to land on Vitali's chin, and even if he did land, the big Ukranian would likely take it no problem. Sander's, fat though he was, probably had one of the single hardest left hooks you'll ever see: absolutely murderous.

Meanwhile, Joe's chin wasn't exactly great. Bonavena & Ali weren't big punchers, and both hurt him badly.
As painful as it sounds, Vitali would have had a great chance of "upsetting" Smokin' Joe.

As for the worst champ ever? You think Vitali would have keeled over from a miss, like Seldon? You think Hide could have punched it out on even terms with Lewis? And most of the 80's heavies would have likely got ready to face Vitali with a couple of lines the night before.

I agree, I think people can't bear to even envisage Klit getting the better of a top 70's era heavyweight, but you don't just need to look at the size difference.

People say Lewis was washed up against Klit but who can honestly say Lennox would have had no problems whatsoever with Vitali in his prime? Obviously they are two different fighters entirely, but if Ray Mercer can push Lennox all the way. Klit can. overhand I can just picture you gawping at the screen, ready to hang yourself reading this, but think - Vitali would have given prime Lennox the same problems. WIthout the cut Lewis stops him late - but Frazier is no Lewis.

The deficiency in size and reach obviously wouldn't have been a problem for Frazier against someone like Valuev. But Vitali is no Valuev either. Vitali, for his flaws, has proved himself elite, intelligent. The fight could quite conceivably pan out with Frazier taking so many shots trying to get inside, off a decent puncher, and not being able to land enough on the awkward Vitali to press the advantage. Even if he did land single shots, we know Vitali can take them.

i'm not saying Klit would definitely win, I just said he would have a damn good chance, I would say pickem fight.

I'm not sure i'd pick Klitchko against a prime Mercer let alone a prime Frazier.

And in how has Vitali has proved himself elite? Was it beating fat Sam Peter? Fat Danny Williams? Even fatter Kirk Johnson? Fragile Herbie Hide? Old Sanders? Or losing to old Lewis (who anyone could tell was not the fighter he once was, his reflexes were pretty much gone, and Bruno and Mercer troubled Lewis with their jabs and Vitali's isn't as good). Or was it the Byrd fight, which he lost?

It doesn't matter who could beat who in from the past champions.
It should be about who can beat the Klitchko's from todays heavies.

Ok out of the top 30 in boxrec , the ones i give a chance of beating both are Valuev, Juan Carlos Gomez, Chris Arreola and maybe David Haye.

these are the ones i give a chance to, they could all fail.

Old bones Ian wrote:It doesn't matter who could beat who in from the past champions.
It should be about who can beat the Klitchko's from todays heavies.

Ok out of the top 30 in boxrec , the ones i give a chance of beating both are Valuev, Juan Carlos Gomez, Chris Arreola and maybe David Haye.

these are the ones i give a chance to, they could all fail.

I'd add Chagaev and Povetkin but i'd make Vitali favourite against all of them.

Of the current mob i'd only give Chagaev a shot as he moves and is sneaky, Povetkin, we'll see how he handles Wlad -- the others are a steaming pile of sh#te.

Vitalis list of name victims --
Corrie Sanders,
Larry Donald,
Vaughn Bean,
Danny Williams,
Kirk Johnson,
Sam Peter,
Ed Mahone... What do they all have in common? They're all grossly overweight or old, or in some cases BOTH.

Only physically fit fighter he beat is Herbie Hide. Who has no chin or heart. Chris Byrd, a conventional-sized heavy, and the musclebound giant certainly couldn't bomb him out like Ibeabuchi did could he?

And this fellas being picked over legends from the 70s, hardnuts who fought at a hellish championship pace & were in peak physical fitness.

What you people think of Chris Arreola?
I like what i've seen, he may of beaten only grade B heavyweights so far, but its the way he's gone about it i like.
He doesn't come in out of shape, he takes each fight seriously. He takes care of business in the ring if someone is there to be taken out he does it.

I like Arreola, but he seems to lack a bit of power, and he's not that physically imposing. Certainly has a good workrate though, and like you say, all business in the ring.

Yeah he maybe hasn't got the biggest 1 punch power, but he puts his combinations together well.
And he isn't just facing the usual suspects that alot of the young heavies face. The guys he's taken on lately have come with ambitions of there own Witherspoon, Hayes and Garcia.

Now i've hyped Arreola watch him get KO'd in his next one against Travis Walker

I think things can get really ludicrous on message boards. Opinions and arseholes, and all.

Some ppl are more critical of Vitali than Wlad. Wlad went down five fvcking times against Peter!

Vitali has the same skills that Wlad has. He can also implement a 12 rd game plan without pissing himself, turning his back, getting shaken, running out of gas, or clutching for dear life.

If Vitali has a weakness it is not in using his reach to box superbly from a distance. Vitali's weakness (aside from injury) is southpaws. Like I keep saying, see Byrd and Sanders fights. Not very good. Few heavyweight champs have had to fight southpaws and I suppose they've usually looked bad (Holyfield v Moorer 1) however.