BoxRec

These films were in multiple reels. This fight was probably four or five reels. There was likely a reel of prefight material, a reel encompassing rds 1-5, a reel showing rds 6-10, a reel of rd 11 thru the end of the fight and possibly a reel showing postfight footage (the fighters collecting their checks was filmed and shown at the end of the fight). The reel of rds 6-10 was discovered in the 1950s or 1960s. Where the other reels are, how they were seperated, and when is anyones guess. ESPN Classic would have you believe that the above sequence is rd 14 because that was the myth Jim Jacobs was peddling when he had the film edited to appear that way for dramatic effect when it was shown on TV. Had anyone bothered to research the numerous newspaper descriptions of the film they would have seen that the film was never stopped. Furthermore, the perch from which the camera filmed the fight was situated nearly twenty feet above the audience and only accessible by a narrow ladder. No police officer could have gotten to the cameras in time to stop them and likely wouldnt have been able to be heard above the clamor of the crowd if he were shouting up to them anyway. So the whole story, besides the fact that it didnt happen, is ridiculous.

There are some things interesting (though maybe not that important) things about this fight that seem unclear.

For example the narrator on Youtube (obviously dubbed in many decades later) says that Johnson weighed 212. I have seen elsewhere that he was around 194.
Also I read in one place that Burns was decked twice in the first round, but other sources don't mention this.

The Burns vrs Johnson fight was edited that way for dramtic effect to include in the Academy Award nominated
documentary JACK JOHNSON which was produced by Bill Cayton and directed by Jim Jacobs of BIGFIGHTS INC.
(with music score by Miles Davis)
and released in July 1970 just 6 months after the play by Howard Sackler THE GREAT WHITE HOPE ended its run on Broadway
( after 546 performaces) anda month after the movie with James Earl Jones had been made and released Nationwide a imonth earlier(October 1970).
So I wonder if they just only had film of rounds 6 to 10 to work with back then.(50 years ago).

Caractacus wrote: ↑24 Sep 2018, 14:21 The Burns vrs Johnson fight was edited that way for dramtic effect to include in the Academy Award nominated
documentary JACK JOHNSON which was produced by Bill Cayton and directed by Jim Jacobs of BIGFIGHTS INC.
(with music score by Miles Davis)
and released in July 1970 just 6 months after the play by Howard Sackler THE GREAT WHITE HOPE ended its run on Broadway
( after 546 performaces) anda month after the movie with James Earl Jones had been made and released Nationwide a imonth earlier(October 1970).
So I wonder if they just only had film of rounds 6 to 10 to work with back then.(50 years ago).

It was edited this way prior the Jacobs documentary, in the 1960s for the program Greatest Fights of the Century.

Of course they only had the one reel (rds 6-10) to work with. Why else make up the story. If they had the following reel they would have just shown the end of the fight.

Interestingly, when this film was shown on television by Jacobs, being seen for the first time in over 50 years on CBS Sports Spectacular he was narrating and had an entirely different, equally fictional, account of why the film didnt show the knockout.

Not too long after the inter-state Fight Film ban was lifted (1940)
in January 1954 film documentary was released titled
THEY WERE CHAMPIONS
which featured the film footage of Dempsey,Willard and Tommy Burns ,Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson.
It was compiled and directed by Robert Youngson who got into the Sports film and old Comedy compilations in 1948.
around this time (1954) Bill Cayton got into the entertainment buisness.
I wonder if Cayton had purchased that documentary and its original source of films for it,and if that was all the film footage
of Burns vrs Johnson known to exist at that time ?
or maybe Robert Youngson got the film footage from Jim Jacobs who reportedly started collecting fight films in the late 1940's too.
Does anyone know if Jim Jacobs or Bill Cayton had said were they first aquired the Burns vrs Johnson rounds
and from whom ?

does anyone have a link to any old newspaper round by round accounts of the fight from 1908 ?

In reading the book FIGHT PICTURES by Dan Streible the other evening
possibly the known Tommy Burns vrs Jack Johnson film footage may have appeared in a earlier documentary.
KINGS OF THE RING
( Stadium films.released January 1944)
it was compiled by independent film dealer Martin J. Lewis
who collected the fight films that were still being "Barnstormed" in the country around that time.
The film featured the voice-overs of Nat Fleisher and Bob Stern of NBC Radio.
The author doesn't mention the Burns vrs Johnson fight is in it,just assuming,
because he does say KINGS OF THE RING had rare footage of
Tommy Burns vrs Bill Squires
Jack Johnson vrs Stanley Ketchel
Dempsey vrs Sharkey
Dempsey vrs Tunney
also I believe the newly discovered "lost footage" of Dempsey vrs Willard
which turned up after 20 year in November 1939 when the ban was lifted
which caused excitement in the press as film frame photos of it were even published in the various newspaper of it.

On further examination,it doesn't look like the Tommy Burns vrs Jack Johnson film footage was in the 1944
documentary KINGS OF THE RING after all.
( curiosly even Johnson vrs Jeffries,Johnson vrs Flynn or Johnson vrs Willard appear to be in it either)
only Johnson vrs Ketchel is in it.
but here is some more info on that film and the fight footage that it did contain.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fRY0Q ... =PA1285&dq

according to the book FIGHT PICTURES by Dan Streible.
The Burns vrs Johnson fight film was shown 3 days later in Sydney Australia.
and In February 1909, Hugh D. McIntosh ( the promoter and referee for the fight)
arrived in London
and had 20 prints made of the fight. by Gaumont studios (of France which also filmed the fight in Australia)
It had its premier in England at the National Sporting Club in Covent Garden..
There were 2 versions of the fight,
the Deluxe 90 minute version which was the version that Hugh D. McIntosh solely
had and which he presented himself at various first class venues in England
and also when he toured the USA (a 2 week engagement in Chicago and the Broadway Theatre in New York City
beginning the following 21.March 1909.
also made were 18 prints of four reels (40 minutes) for distribution and showing in the Vaudeville houses
across the country)

Caractacus wrote: ↑24 Sep 2018, 18:43 does anyone have a link to any old newspaper round by round accounts of the fight from 1908 ?

Yes

https://newspaperarchive.com/baltimore- ... 1908-p-10/

pound per pound wrote: ↑01 Oct 2018, 16:28

Caractacus wrote: ↑24 Sep 2018, 18:43 does anyone have a link to any old newspaper round by round accounts of the fight from 1908 ?

Yes

https://newspaperarchive.com/baltimore- ... 1908-p-10/

But Dude,the print there is waaayy to small for me to read it from here.

Gaumont studios of France had used two cameras on each side of the ring to film the fight.
( presumably to take turns filming and then loading film into the camera for the rounds as they went by).
But IMOP the film footage here looks to be filmed from the same stationary camera judging from the position of the ring posts and crowd.
So how did they figure which rounds were which that are shown here anyway?

Brutu wrote: ↑10 Jan 2009, 15:42 As near as I can tell the rounds that are known to exist of Johnson vrs Burns(or parts of rounds)
are rounds..6,7,10,13,14.
As far as the 'newly found"footage of Burns being knocked down in round one in UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS.
I think that footage was the knockdown from round 7,then they(producers of UNFORGIVABLE BLACKNESS) just reversed the image zoomed in and then pretended that the same clip was also the knockdown in round 2(or least the narrater tries to give the impression.

But someone else who posts here said the footage was actually from rounds 6 thru 10 tho.
short of footage of somone walking into the ring with a card annoucing the rounds,
how did they at BigFights Inc determine which rounds are in the footage anyway ?

has anyone here seen the newspaper article that appeared in THE MILWAUKEE EVENING WISCONSIN
of April-13-1909 ? When the film premiered there some movie critic gave a discription of the fight film round by round.
Maybe we can figure out which rounds are actually in the 10 minutes of film there.
BTW Jack Johnson gave a round by round account of the fight in his 1914 memoirs
MY LIFE AND BATTLES.
from reading it,round 14 in that film looks sounds more like round 13 as discribbed by Johnson
were he said he had Tommy Burns reeling like a drunkard before the bell rang.
Tommy Burns gave his account of the fight in 1951 which reportedly was re-printed in the
TORONTO MAIL & GLOBE of July-3-1971
( has anyone seen that article ?)

Caractacus wrote: ↑01 Oct 2018, 17:50

pound per pound wrote: ↑01 Oct 2018, 16:28

Caractacus wrote: ↑24 Sep 2018, 18:43 does anyone have a link to any old newspaper round by round accounts of the fight from 1908 ?

Yes

https://newspaperarchive.com/baltimore- ... 1908-p-10/

But Dude,the print there is waaayy to small for me to read it from here.

You can magnify it easily. Click on the magnifying glass icon

here is a link to film of (what is listed as round 7)that is deposited in the Australian Film Archives..
(The footage there lists the fight film footage as 13 mintes compared to 10:34 minutes of youtube clip)
( but can anyone here tell if it is also part of the 10 minute Youtube clip ?
because this footage (IMOP)looks like parts of it were edited and used in rounds one and round 5 of the BigFightsInc clip to me)

https://aso.gov.au/titles/historical/bo ... rns/clip1/

Caractacus wrote: ↑05 Oct 2018, 17:38 here is a link to film of (what is listed as round 7)that is deposited in the Australian Film Archives..
(The footage there lists the fight film footage as 13 mintes compared to 10:34 minutes of youtube clip)
( but can anyone here tell if it is also part of the 10 minute Youtube clip ?
because this footage (IMOP)looks like parts of it were edited and used in rounds one and round 5 of the BigFightsInc clip to me)

https://aso.gov.au/titles/historical/bo ... rns/clip1/

Actually,that is only 1:36 minutes of the round.
Reportedly Burns was knocked down( or fell down when his ankle gave way) in that round
but it appears to have been edited out at about 1:17 of the film clip.

Caractacus wrote: ↑06 Oct 2018, 15:41

Caractacus wrote: ↑05 Oct 2018, 17:38 here is a link to film of (what is listed as round 7)that is deposited in the Australian Film Archives..
(The footage there lists the fight film footage as 13 mintes compared to 10:34 minutes of youtube clip)
( but can anyone here tell if it is also part of the 10 minute Youtube clip ?
because this footage (IMOP)looks like parts of it were edited and used in rounds one and round 5 of the BigFightsInc clip to me)

https://aso.gov.au/titles/historical/bo ... rns/clip1/

Actually,that is only 1:36 minutes of the round.
Reportedly Burns was knocked down( or fell down when his ankle gave way) in that round
but it appears to have been edited out at about 1:17 of the film clip.

Why do you keep posting bullshit to the point of discussing this film with yourself (Brutu)?? Gaumont didnt film this fight. They distributed it in Europe. There werent two camera angles. The 10 minutes of footage you keep talking about is not all that exists. You can identify the rounds because in the version of the film unedited by BigFights the original intertitles are still in place and a man can be see ringside holding up a round card. Whether you choose to believe me is neither here nor there. The facts have been stated above.

I saw a photograph of this fight in a Boxing book.
(THE BIG BOOK OF BOXING)
But I noticed that the so called "photograph" in it actually looks more like a film-frame
from film footage taken from a different angle by a different cheaper camera.
( it more resembles a frame of the boot-leg film footage of the 1899 Jeffries vrs Sharkey fight
then the lost "Mutoscope" version of Jeffries vrs Sharkey).

This is one of the original intertitles for the unedited Johnson-Burns fight:
https://flic.kr/p/2bQPEcN

In this still from the film you can just barely make out the "7" on the round card this guy holds up between rounds to help film editors identify each round in the editing process. This round was the one which is commonly shown by BigFights as being the final round with the famous freeze frame purporting to show Burns going down at the time police supposedly stopped the cameras. Police did not stop the cameras and Burns did not go down at that point. He did go down later in the round and this is captured on film. It was shown in Unforgiveable Blackness as being from the first round but it was not:
https://flic.kr/p/2bQPEdj

As a comparison to the photo above, and to help identify it, you can see more clearly in this still from the end of the above described round the man in the light colored duster holding up the round card for round 8:
https://flic.kr/p/2bQPEdE