BoxRec

Ambling Alp wrote: Love stats? Tyson had only 165 rounds going into the Holyfield fight, while Holyfield had 235 career rounds. not mention 3 fights with bowe, the Dokes fight, the Foreman fight, Mercer fight, etc. Holyfield obviously had much more wear and tear, was four years older. He was clearly further from his best than Tyson.

If Holyfield was better, he would have a better record? Are you serious? You rerally just go by win/loss record?
I guess you must think that Brian Nielson was better than Tyson ?Since after all he he had a better record (64-2). Never mind that Nielson lost to Tyson and that Nielson competition was a joke.

You have to look at competition and the stages of their careers when fighters fought.

--- DUH! You have a real knack for stating the obvious and not knowing what it means.

Am I supposed to feel sorry for Evan Field because he was older and less talented? That's what I was talkin' about previously, boxing is the only sport where excellence and talent is downgraded. At the age Evan Field was going life and death against 35 yr old well past it Qawi who never was even a big puncher, Tyson was entering a 4 yr stretch in the pen. When he got out he already had more money stolen from him than Evan Field had ever made to that point in spite of Evan Field having a year more experience on top off all those extra rounds.

Tyson didn't want to fight, he wanted to make his money back the easy way. He'd already wiped it out the best competition in a career for the ages, guaranteed HOFer before he ever camped out at the pen. He wanted the easy fights against Neilson, Botha, Golota, Savarse ect. That's why King scheduled Evan Field because he was thought to be past it, cheap, and a much easier big money fight for Tyson than Lewis, Bowe, Morrison, or Foreman.

Did you know that had Butter Bean been credited with a proper count which should have resulted in a TKO against Holmes, Bean was in the queue to fight Tyson? HUGE money fight blown when Holmes ran away from the ref after his KD, hanging on to the ropes for support. They TKO Lewis for a teensy stumble after he rose at the count of 6 against McCall. Jumpin' Turnips, had Lewis pulled that Holmes stunt, he would've been suspended for a year the way the boxing orgs treated him.

As I already pointed out, Tyson has a better heavyweight title record than Evan Field or Neilson, who is closer to Evan Field than isTyson.

You want to make Evan Field a better heavy than Tyson, fine, but don't tell he's better because he boxed more rounds and is older. Damn man, what, was he hiding behind your barn all those years Tyson stormed the division and unified the 4 belts as easy as Evan Field was popping his vitamins?

You ever see Tyson lately? 350lbs or so. What if he announced a rubber match against Evan Field and tuned up using Mighty McNeely, Junior Mathis, Barred & Sectioned Bruno, and Simple Seldon. You gonna point out that Evan Field boxed more rounds, is older, and always has his number when he wins?

Really, you think I enjoy skewering Evan Field whom I used to respect and believe in? I don't even like Tyson as he had plenty of opportunity to turn his life around so the nattering nabobs of negativism didn't have such a convenient dart board. It's just that in his day with a HOF professional team training him without medication, Tyson was the REAL DEAL, and Evan Field was busy consorting with real dealers to improve his chances to move in on the real deal$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

End of, sorted...

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: Did you know that had Butter Bean been credited with a proper count which should have resulted in a TKO against Holmes, Bean was in the queue to fight Tyson? HUGE money fight blown when Holmes ran away from the ref after his KD, hanging on to the ropes for support. They TKO Lewis for a teensy stumble after he rose at the count of 6 against McCall. Jumpin' Turnips, had Lewis pulled that Holmes stunt, he would've been suspended for a year the way the boxing orgs treated him.

Not true about Holmes and Butterbean. That wasn't even a knockdown. Holmes was pissed at the ref for counting a slip as a knockdown.

squiggy wrote:Not true about Holmes and Butterbean. That wasn't even a knockdown. Holmes was pissed at the ref for counting a slip as a knockdown.

--- Official KD bud, live with it.

Should've been a TKO since Larry ran away from the ref using the ropes to stay up to buy time, but I can live with it since Butterbean knows who's bountiful buttocks hit the canvas and was stumbling around midrounds. 12 rd fight and 4 round fighter Bean wins since Larry had no legs left.

No rematch either. Larry dodged the bullet and let it lay by keeping his mouth shut.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

squiggy wrote:Not true about Holmes and Butterbean. That wasn't even a knockdown. Holmes was pissed at the ref for counting a slip as a knockdown.

--- Official KD bud, live with it.

Should've been a TKO since Larry ran away from the ref using the ropes to stay up to buy time, but I can live with it since Butterbean knows who's bountiful buttocks hit the canvas and was stumbling around midrounds. 12 rd fight and 4 round fighter Bean wins since Larry had no legs left.

No rematch either. Larry dodged the bullet and let it lay by keeping his mouth shut.

He wasn't using the ropes to stay up. That's garbage. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BYqNGBwMGo, 6:49-6:53.
And he didn't "dodge a bullet" by not fighting Butterbean again. He retired because he was f*cking 52 years old.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote: Love stats? Tyson had only 165 rounds going into the Holyfield fight, while Holyfield had 235 career rounds. not mention 3 fights with bowe, the Dokes fight, the Foreman fight, Mercer fight, etc. Holyfield obviously had much more wear and tear, was four years older. He was clearly further from his best than Tyson.

If Holyfield was better, he would have a better record? Are you serious? You rerally just go by win/loss record?
I guess you must think that Brian Nielson was better than Tyson ?Since after all he he had a better record (64-2). Never mind that Nielson lost to Tyson and that Nielson competition was a joke.

You have to look at competition and the stages of their careers when fighters fought.

--- DUH! You have a real knack for stating the obvious and not knowing what it means.

Am I supposed to feel sorry for Evan Field because he was older and less talented? That's what I was talkin' about previously, boxing is the only sport where excellence and talent is downgraded. At the age Evan Field was going life and death against 35 yr old well past it Qawi who never was even a big puncher, Tyson was entering a 4 yr stretch in the pen. When he got out he already had more money stolen from him than Evan Field had ever made to that point in spite of Evan Field having a year more experience on top off all those extra rounds.

Tyson didn't want to fight, he wanted to make his money back the easy way. He'd already wiped it out the best competition in a career for the ages, guaranteed HOFer before he ever camped out at the pen. He wanted the easy fights against Neilson, Botha, Golota, Savarse ect. That's why King scheduled Evan Field because he was thought to be past it, cheap, and a much easier big money fight for Tyson than Lewis, Bowe, Morrison, or Foreman.

Did you know that had Butter Bean been credited with a proper count which should have resulted in a TKO against Holmes, Bean was in the queue to fight Tyson? HUGE money fight blown when Holmes ran away from the ref after his KD, hanging on to the ropes for support. They TKO Lewis for a teensy stumble after he rose at the count of 6 against McCall. Jumpin' Turnips, had Lewis pulled that Holmes stunt, he would've been suspended for a year the way the boxing orgs treated him.

As I already pointed out, Tyson has a better heavyweight title record than Evan Field or Neilson, who is closer to Evan Field than isTyson.

You want to make Evan Field a better heavy than Tyson, fine, but don't tell he's better because he boxed more rounds and is older. Damn man, what, was he hiding behind your barn all those years Tyson stormed the division and unified the 4 belts as easy as Evan Field was popping his vitamins?

You ever see Tyson lately? 350lbs or so. What if he announced a rubber match against Evan Field and tuned up using Mighty McNeely, Junior Mathis, Barred & Sectioned Bruno, and Simple Seldon. You gonna point out that Evan Field boxed more rounds, is older, and always has his number when he wins?

Really, you think I enjoy skewering Evan Field whom I used to respect and believe in? I don't even like Tyson as he had plenty of opportunity to turn his life around so the nattering nabobs of negativism didn't have such a convenient dart board. It's just that in his day with a HOF professional team training him without medication, Tyson was the REAL DEAL, and Evan Field was busy consorting with real dealers to improve his chances to move in on the real deal$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

End of, sorted...

I'm guessing you weren't sober when you wrote this inane rambling.

squiggy wrote:

yiddo14 wrote: I think you are missing their fights against Buster Douglas(Tyson- night, night! Holy smashed him)
when comparing them against people they have both fought.

Douglas fought a fantastic fight against Tyson; he would've given any heavyweight a struggle that night. But when he fought Holyfield, Douglas just looked like some couch potato with gloves on. Ali could have come out of retirement and beat him that night.

It's fair to say that Douglas was a much better fighter when he fought Tyson than when he fought Holyfield.
Douglas probably would have given almost any heavyweight a struggle the night he beat Tyson. However, he wasn't just competitive against Tyson;he beat him convincingly. That has to count against him.

As for another statement that you made regarding the 2nd Bruno-Tyson fight; Bruno came to fight. He was also coming off the biggest win of his career. He did hold a lot, but he also threw some punches. It was regarded as a very impressive win for Tyson; his fans especially were excited after that fight. You could put the 3rd round ko with Tyson's other highlights. It was only after he lost to Holyfield did you get the revisionist history that Tyson was done.

There is no gray area here; If you are 30 years old and lose convincingly to a 34 year old who had a lot more wear and tear from tough fights, you have nothing to cry about.
In the real world sometimes your favorites lose fair and square. That's life.

You're certainly right about Buster's win being convincing. He was (to me) up six or seven points when the knockout came. If the question in this thread is about career achievements, it isn't even debatable; Evander wins. But if it's a question of a prime vs. prime meeting, I picture properly trained mid-to-late-'80s Tyson at least holding his own against him. Perhaps not winning--I admit, my image of prime Tyson may be somewhat tainted by my imagination of what he could have developed into.
I disagree with your assessment of Tyson-Bruno II. I just went back to it, and I counted 35 grabs by Bruno in less than seven minutes of boxing, hardly any of them broken by anything but several seconds of physical intervention by the ref. I just don't respect an outing like that at all.

observer1 wrote:You guys cn rgue nd compre all you wat.

Fact of the matter is, mjority of fans hold the Tyson and Holyfield bout in the same level as the Lewis and Tyson bout.

No they don't.

Ambling Alp wrote: It was regarded as a very impressive win for Tyson; his fans especially were excited after that fight. You could put the 3rd round ko with Tyson's other highlights. It was only after he lost to Holyfield did you get the revisionist history that Tyson was done.

There is no gray area here; If you are 30 years old and lose convincingly to a 34 year old who had a lot more wear and tear from tough fights, you have nothing to cry about.
In the real world sometimes your favorites lose fair and square. That's life.

People who actually followed the game at the time should recall that this post illustrates accurately the mood in the press and boxing fans at the times.

Desperate Tyson fanatics now try paint a different picture of the times to save their grotesque icon from yet another of his stoppage losses.

overhand_right wrote:

observer1 wrote:You guys can argue and compare all you want.

Fact of the matter is, majority of fans hold the Tyson and Holyfield bout in the same level as the Lewis and Tyson bout.

No they don't.

So you feel the same thing would have happened if they fought in say.... '88?

Hard to say about what would happened in 19988. Holyfield had just become a heavyweight. However, he look pretty good against Tillis in his first heavyweight fight and looked even better against Pinklon Thomas in his only other heavyweight fight of 1988. (For what it's worth, Holyfield was at least as dominaint against Thomas as Tyson was against Thomas year earlier.)
By 1989, Holyfield probably would have won (as he was getting used to the heavyweight division), and almost for sure would have beat Tyson in 1990. Holyfield speed,reflexes, punch output were much better during this time then when they fought in 1996.

overhand_right wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote: It was regarded as a very impressive win for Tyson; his fans especially were excited after that fight. You could put the 3rd round ko with Tyson's other highlights. It was only after he lost to Holyfield did you get the revisionist history that Tyson was done.

There is no gray area here; If you are 30 years old and lose convincingly to a 34 year old who had a lot more wear and tear from tough fights, you have nothing to cry about.
In the real world sometimes your favorites lose fair and square. That's life.

People who actually followed the game at the time should recall that this post illustrates accurately the mood in the press and boxing fans at the times.

Desperate Tyson fanatics now try paint a different picture of the times to save their grotesque icon from yet another of his stoppage losses.

Totally agree. Tyson was more exciting and has a lot mroe fans but Holyfield was better and proved it twice.

observer1 wrote:

overhand_right wrote:

observer1 wrote:You guys can argue and compare all you want.

Fact of the matter is, majority of fans hold the Tyson and Holyfield bout in the same level as the Lewis and Tyson bout.

No they don't.

So you feel the same thing would have happened if they fought in say.... '88?

Tyson was great & explosive against people who folded under his punch power, but men who could take his punch, i.e. Tucker, Tillis, Green he just wasn't spectacular at all. Holyfield in the opening seconds ate Tysons biggest full-blooded overhand right, was knocked back, then straight away resumed fighting. You knew right then Tyson was going to be in a two-sided fight for once, and look what happened.

Of all the great fighters in the world, why people feel such an emotional attachment to such a vile multiple felon and sociopath is always beyond me.

^^^Well-put. Tyson is trash as a human being.

overhand_right wrote: Of all the great fighters in the world, why people feel such an emotional attachment to such a vile multiple felon and sociopath is always beyond me.

--- You've been emoting all over the place over Tyson, hating him in opposition to those who love him.

Tyson retired to make world tours. He doesn't have to be propped up in the ring any more like Evan Field who has delusions that he's the future unified champ of the world.

Don't see folks on forums tearing up Liston who has a great deal in common with Tyson, the reason being that Liston was never the threat to Ali, instead being a foil for Ali and dying shortly afterwards. Tyson was a legit threat to the legacy of Ali in his heyday.

I have a theory that you and others expressing blatant hostility to Tyson were bullied in your youth and are gravely threatened by that personality type. OK, that's understandable, but make it clear here, Don King is the sociopath, not Tyson who was exploited by others the whole of his life. Your understanding of psychology is dire.

Me, not being bullied, have no such emotional attachment to Tyson. He represents what bullies could accomplish with the correct mentors guiding them, and represents what can happen when a mentally ill person gets off track and runs afoul of social norms when he gets off his meds.

I'm more curious about the cult of Evan Field. A smaller, but still significant crowd ignore his every transgressions, from his multiple out of wedlock children as he thumps his Bible, steroid use, and his most recent embarrassment of being hired by King to be passed around for fun and sport by King's Russian champs.

Tyson isn't embarrassing himself like that, but you think it so grande.

Are you still posting here? You've already been exposed as a man making it up and you go along.

(Consistent with all Tyson Freaks, then)

I'm firmly in the Holyfied camp on this one.

Tyson had great physical gifts (speed, power, chin & for a brief time, defense), but he lacked stamina & fighting heart & that is a massive blot on the copybook of any fighter.

Holyfield had so such weaknesses to note & the fact that he became HW champ is a very tough & underrated era, whilst not being that big himself is testimony to his standing.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

overhand_right wrote: Of all the great fighters in the world, why people feel such an emotional attachment to such a vile multiple felon and sociopath is always beyond me.

Tyson isn't embarrassing himself like that, but you think it so grande.

HAHAHA
So you are going to argue Holyfield has embarassed himself MORE than Michael Tyson, Mr. rape conviction/ear muncher/wants to stomp on your children's testicles/cocaine user/I beat up old people on the highway who fenderbend me/and who provided the timeless tidbit "I'll fornicate you till you love me faggot" in a major press conference????

Meanwhile, of course Holyfield is fighting way past his expiration date but in his last fight on almost all scorecards he clearly beat the 7ft WBA HW champion of the world, while Tyson is promoting a documentary and video game since his 'exhibition' world tour failed so miserably.

If anything you (and Tyson) can provide some laughs

"I'll F--- you til you love me, faggot"... Ah, surely one of Tysons best quotes. Lets not forget his dignified "i only speak with women if they fornicate with me"

In terms of embarrassment, let's not forget him quitting against Kevin McBride, before McBride was poleaxed by a clubfighter. How any Tyson Freak, no matter how demented, can somehow spin that so it is a superior result to Holyfield at 46 outboxing Valuev with ease overseas is beyond anyone with a normal thought process.

overhand_right wrote:Holyfield at 46 outboxing Valuev with ease overseas is beyond anyone with a normal thought process.

- Outboxing relative to Valuev obviously pulling his punches, wearing the cuffs and ball and chain so King can set up the rematch down the line. All predicted when the fight was announced.

Don't worry, Ruiz, and Toney to be back in the mix with Evan Field once White Tyson disposes of the undefeated Beat Me Like a Drummond. A 5 way merry go round for the kiddies with WBA interim, recess, and mudpie belts for all.

RE Tyson's behavior: Most know about Ali's reprehensible language and religious beliefs, Joe Frazier being the most aggrieved. Liston was more quiet, but everyone knows about his mob connections, felony convictions, abuse of women,leg breaking days, and alleged fight fixes.

Tyson in bad company behavior wise with those two which has nothing to do with ranking their careers.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Holyfield at 46 outboxing Valuev with ease overseas is beyond anyone with a normal thought process.

- Outboxing relative to Valuev obviously pulling his punches, wearing the cuffs and ball and chain so King can set up the rematch down the line. All predicted when the fight was announced.

Don't worry, Ruiz, and Toney to be back in the mix with Evan Field once White Tyson disposes of the undefeated Beat Me Like a Drummond. A 5 way merry go round for the kiddies with WBA interim, recess, and mudpie belts for all.

RE Tyson's behavior: Most know about Ali's reprehensible language and religious beliefs, Joe Frazier being the most aggrieved. Liston was more quiet, but everyone knows about his mob connections, felony convictions, abuse of women,leg breaking days, and alleged fight fixes.

Tyson in bad company behavior wise with those two which has nothing to do with ranking their careers.

See, this is what you do. You have ZERO evidence that the Valuev fight was thrown, it's all a fantasy in your head. But you make things up when the truth doesn't suit your version of reality. Very mature behavior.

dempseyfire wrote:You have ZERO evidence that the Valuev fight was thrown

- Entire cottage industry poised to become major publishing icons with hundreds of books to "prove" the US, sic Israel, sic CIA flew those planes into the Twin Towers and then set off a demolition charge inside.

The Donald King has controlled the WBA exclusively since Lewis sold him the belt back in 2000 and he staged the first of the Ruiz/Evan Field trilogy that everyone groans in misery about. Since that time there have been 15 WBA title bouts in 9 yrs, that's 30 fighters involved and 21x Mr. Field/Ruiz/Valuev involved. In short, 70% of the WBA title fights involved those 3 fighters. Sweet work if you can get it.

Whatever. I'll let you chaps moan about Evan Field's poor heavy title record, 10-7-2. Apparently he was supposed to be 19-0, but didn't get the email. No wonder you gentlemen are so upset!

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:You have ZERO evidence that the Valuev fight was thrown

- Entire cottage industry poised to become major publishing icons with hundreds of books to "prove" the US, sic Israel, sic CIA flew those planes into the Twin Towers and then set off a demolition charge inside.

The Donald King has controlled the WBA exclusively since Lewis sold him the belt back in 2000 and he staged the first of the Ruiz/Evan Field trilogy that everyone groans in misery about. Since that time there have been 15 WBA title bouts in 9 yrs, that's 30 fighters involved and 21x Mr. Field/Ruiz/Valuev involved. In short, 70% of the WBA title fights involved those 3 fighters. Sweet work if you can get it.

Whatever. I'll let you chaps moan about Evan Field's poor heavy title record, 10-7-2. Apparently he was supposed to be 19-0, but didn't get the email. No wonder you gentlemen are so upset!

If Don King controlled the WBA, Chagaev would've never beat Valuev on the scorecards. I guess a King cronie also caused Ruslan's Achilles tear . . .

You're embarassing yourself but I won't stop you.

dempseyfire wrote:If Don King controlled the WBA, Chagaev would've never beat Valuev on the scorecards. I guess a King cronie also caused Ruslan's Achilles tear . . .

You're embarassing yourself but I won't stop you.

- Evan Field stepped in twice for consecutive White Tyson injuries in spite of beating nobody of note since years ago when he butted his way to a TD over Rahman.

Iggy fought him the same as Niko, at distance with a jab and wrap up in close to keep him alive for more fun. Niko had a look of terror like Lamotta had when he was trying to throw a fight with a bumb, barely taps him with a jab and he starts to go down.

When you and I are long gone, moderns gonna be giggling over any notion of Evan Field being a great heavy. Take away the Tyson wins who you chaps claim is nothing but a bumb in essence, Evan drops to 8-7-2, 10-7-2 when bumbs are included.

Wow!

Always find it suspicious when someone touts huge victories over another fighter they disparage as badly as Tyson suffers from in this thread.

"...When you and I are long gone, moderns gonna be giggling over any notion of Evan Field being a great heavy..." - BRR

No doubt, they will. They'll be saying, "he could never compete with the modern Heavies & their superior nutrition," just like so many imbeciles state of Louis, Dempsey & co...