BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
I was asked to post this article and it has generated some good discussion with at least 3 quotes of Johnson calling out Dempsey on or around the date of the article and a verification of the career of the alleged author.
None of those things were in doubt at the time you posted the article.
They go no way towards 'proving' this secret fight ever took place.
Collins, you don't seem to understand, in the peanut sized contraption that is BRR's brain this is ALL proof
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
I was asked to post this article and it has generated some good discussion with at least 3 quotes of Johnson calling out Dempsey on or around the date of the article and a verification of the career of the alleged author.
None of those things were in doubt at the time you posted the article.
They go no way towards 'proving' this secret fight ever took place.
- Few if any had ever seen any of the 3 captions posted of Johnson calling out Dempsey. If anyone knew who Ray Pearson was, they kept mum.
Nobody has claimed proof of the fight yet, but I must say you do an excellent impersonation of an empty bin being kicked. Empty noise emanates with every new find. Your little buddy Dempster is still banging his head on his ignore function. Probably conjuring up reinforcement by Curly Moe for a yukfest.
I'm happy to say that my Dad must have been there though he never spoke a word of it to a soul, anyone who attended would have been (or were) killed if they even hinted at speaking of it.
Here is the form of transportation used to get both the fighters and the crowd to their destination on that fateful day. I think this is picture Collins is looking for, EXCEPT NO PHOTOSHOP ..this my friends is authentic the real deal.
Perhaps it was held in that craft? Is that Saskatoon below?
Is this still being discussed? this story by eskin is a reprint from an earlier magazine article which appeared in an April issue. i.e. April Fools day! its fake. it never happened.
But "WHAT IF?" is the greatest single force that motivates boxing more so than any other sport. If it is indeed a hoax it is certainly a rather elaborate one with so many details and coming from a respected writer who never quite said "This is real", but more along the lines of "What are your thoughts?" and it's one of those things where something like that could have happened. Could have, is the operative words.
What was Jack Johnson's connection to Saskatoon Canada?
Did you know that the Saskatoon Star had exclusive rights to both of his serialized
newspaper autobiographies?
MY LIFE AND BATTLES in 1910
(which was published in the Saskatoon Star in English before it was published in France)
and also his 1929 serialized newspaper autobiography JACK JOHNSON MY OWN STORY.
Johnson had some connection either to the newspaper or more likely the newspaper owner.
If the connection is known,there is a very good chance this bout happened.
Johnson was ragging to the press shortly after he was released from Leavenworth
how he could easily defeat Dempsey.At some point it stopped and he focused on Joe Louis
in the late 1930's.
They did not have exclusive rights to those bios. they were syndicated i.e. published simultaneously across several newspapers one of which was this one. i dont understand why people cling to this ridiculous myth. it was a joke. it was an april fools joke. anyone who chases this down or wastes their time arguing the possibility that it happened makes themselves look foolish.
klompton wrote:They did not have exclusive rights to those bios. they were syndicated i.e. published simultaneously across several newspapers one of which was this one. i dont understand why people cling to this ridiculous myth. it was a joke. it was an april fools joke. anyone who chases this down or wastes their time arguing the possibility that it happened makes themselves look foolish.
Which other newspapers carried Jack Johnson's memoirs?
Im pretty sure reading in them that it was mentioned the articles were exclusive to the
Saskatoon Star.
Here is a link to chapter one of Jack Johnson's 1910 memoirs MY LIFE AND BATTLES
Which(a least the first several chapters originally appeared in the Saskatoon-Daily Phoenix
July-11-1910(months before it was translated into French and appeared in the French Sporting magazine La Vie au Grand Air in 18 installments from January to May 1911)
scroll down to read first chapter.
I don't say I am a quote on quote "true believer" of this story, but let's look at it this way. If it is indeed a myth, an April Fool's joke, and a hoax: it is an awfully elaborate and very detailed one. It's hard enough for us modern guys to dig through micro-film and newspapers today, let alone fifty some years ago or earlier. I very much doubt that many people would have known at that time that both the reigning champion of the world and one of its former champions were up in Saskatoon, which (no disrespect to Canadians) was rather far away and back in those days in the middle of nowhere. Certainly after Johnson's reign the public cared little what he was doing, and Dempsey had the reputation as a villain despite being in Hollywood pictures at the time. Why Saskatoon for either of these men? Certainly not even Doc Kearns could squeeze out that much money for standard exhibitions in the middle of nowhere (save for the Shelby incident and that was for a world title fight).
So let's look at the facts:
#1- Jack Dempsey deplored doing exhibition fights and it was common knowledge; Kearns on the other hand felt that with the title, they could do whatever they wanted to and a few grand for a week or two of exhibitions was certainly good business. Dempsey as a fighter knew exhibitions wouldn't be enough to keep him in tip top shape, or be enough to keep interest in him as champion. People were already bitching and complaining that he was sitting on the title. Doing exhibitions in the practically barren territories of Canada makes almost no sense to do considering more money could be made in exhibitions in America or overseas, and he was making movies anyways.
#2- For whatever reasons Jack Johnson was in the same vicinity and also was on an exhibition tour. Mind you, the moment he left Leavenworth it seems he was on the crusade for Dempsey and there was a minority of people out there who published in the papers how Johnson was the logical contender for Dempsey. Why would he go to Canada when there were people here in the States who were actually willing to put up a a few dozen grand together to stage a fight? After all, we know Johnson followed Jeffries for years, followed Burns to the ends of the earth, etc. Why would Dempsey be any different? So.... its obvious he went to Canada precisely to have a meeting (take note I did not say fight) with Dempsey and his people.
#3- The fact that we have a well respected man who was a personal friend of Dempsey's write this, doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it does show that there is more credability to it than say some Joe Blow writing it. The fact that the man only reported that he had found an old newspaper clipping of the fight and that Dempsey never quite said yes or not whether it happened or not, makes you wonder. Dempsey had ducked Wills, Langford and other blacks. Imagine if he had fought the aging Johnson even in an exhibition fight, his legacy would have been all the more tarnished had it of gotten out and the title may very well of been stripped of him because the boxing boards would have said "Now you have no excuse to fight your mandatory Wills."
#4- This article that was so ballyhooed about was sold on Ebay and reportedly was in the hands of Jack Dempsey's illegitimate son. He claimed that the fight indeed did took place. That it wasn't a fraud, or a hoax or a joke. Sure, there's been many a time a rich celebs bastards who tried to cash in on bullshit, but at the same token I'd rather believe him over a naysayer because he had the article. The newspaper account, btw, never was proven to be false or true either way for it's never been tested.
#5- Both Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey are very quiet about their dealings in Saskatoon and their tour of Canada. While that may not mean much, after all it was just exhibitions, it does leave a rather big cloud on the whole ordeal. (See #3) After all if word had gotten out, who knows what the reprocussions would have been. An exhibition with a former champion who was still active and was still considered a threat to the title, would have meant more than any other exhibition. It certainly would have been a great bench test for Dempsey being that he hadn't defended the title in years, and regardless of result the title would have stayed in his hands, and above all else an exhibition being billed as 'for the title' would have made a helluva lot more money, especially in a middle of nowhere place like Saskatoon (which was essentially a 'getting off' place where railroads crisscrossed).
Circumstancially this 'myth' in a court of law gets a pass for being plausible. Think about it, Dempsey tired of the exhibition/film route he been taking with Kearns starts getting offers to fight Jack Johnson for the title. An offer comes from Canada that Kearns can't turn down: Dempsey to do a series of exhibitions and Johnson to do a series of exhibitions that will culminate into Dempsey/Johnson in an exhibition fight for 'the title'. Saskatoon being far enough away from the American press, it is also the perfect locale because many a would be miner, prospector, etc. is on the rails and would jump at the opprotunity to get rich off a fight. The two men meet, Dempsey having not fought in a serious bout in a long time, gets outclassed in the early rounds, only to come back strong and kayo the aging Jack Johnson. Kearns and Dempsey collect the cash and get the hell out of Saskatoon. Johnson remains in Canada for a while longer, gains the respect of the Canadian people, makes some coin, and strangely enough never seriously goes after Dempsey again in the press. Fiction? Maybe. We'll never know.
But don't forget no less than two years later, this very similar event took place: The Sack of Shelby. Never forget Kearns ties to the Klondike when he was a younger man. Never forget how shrewd of a businessman he was. He could make anything happen, literally anywhere in the world.
Maybe the answer was with C.C Campbell,the Sports Editor of the Saskatoon newspaper?
Maybe someone had put up a big money bet that Dempsey just could not refuse.
Saskatchewan seems to have had a rather unusual connection to Jack Johnson.
Johnson did fight Victor McLaglen in Vancouver British Columbia after he won the heavyweight championship from Tommy Burns though.
here is one of the 18 installments of Jack Johnson's other little known newspaper serialized autobiography.
JACK JOHNSON'S OWN STORY
published in 18 installments in April-May of 1929.
It says its a syndicated article,but the Saskatoon Star -Phoenix is the only one that has in on-line at least in the free newspaper articles.
Here Jack Johnson discusses Jack Dempsey.
Brutu wrote:Maybe the answer was with C.C Campbell,the Sports Editor of the Saskatoon newspaper?
Maybe someone had put up a big money bet that Dempsey just could not refuse.
Saskatchewan seems to have had a rather unusual connection to Jack Johnson.
Johnson did fight Victor McLaglen in Vancouver British Columbia after he won the heavyweight championship from Tommy Burns though.
Canada had always been good to Johnson. After all, it was through Canada that he escaped the United States when he was hit with Mann Act charges and made way for Europe. It was where, as he pointed out, he had his first fight following his victory over Burns. It was also where this story sprouts from. It is strange that following this Canadian tour he never again did go after Dempsey in the press, and it is also strange that he chose Saskatoon to print his biography, etc. Maybe the book deal was also a term in negotiations? After all, one looks back on someone like John L. Sullivan who was writing his own autobiography and the last chapter talked about his upcoming fight with Corbett. Maybe Johnson figured, he beats Dempsey in this exhibition fight, he can again lay claim to being the greatest heavyweight of all time and interest in his life be back again and a biography would only further his legacy (and his wallet).
It is funny how unappreciative this board is when it comes to fights that may or may not of happened. It reminds me ALOT of the career of Ohio pugilist Harry Hollinger. Hollinger is but a mere footnote in the history of Ohio but is unknown elsewhere. Luther McCarty's first loss as a professional was to Hollinger and it was by knockout. When he became the "White Heavyweight Champion" there was a small interest in staging a Hollinger/McCarty rematch, but then of course McCarty died. Proof of the fight taking place is mentioned in the Cincinnati newspapers, with quotes from both Hollinger and McCarty about their encounter years before. But actual newspaper clippings of their actual fight seems to have been lost forever. BoxRec won't accept the fight as ever actually happening unless the newspaper account of the original was found, though evidence shows it did happen.
Brutu wrote:here is one of the 18 installments of Jack Johnson's other little known newspaper serialized autobiography.
JACK JOHNSON'S OWN STORY
published in 18 installments in April-May of 1929.
It says its a syndicated article,but the Saskatoon Star -Phoenix is the only one that has in on-line at least in the free newspaper articles.
Here Jack Johnson discusses Jack Dempsey.
For years,boxing books(Papa Jack by Randy Roberts) and various boxing web sites had
Jack Johnson vrs Battling Norfolk in 1926,exact date unknown and location unknown.
it was said Johnson lost a 10 round decision,but no one could ever come up with any type of documentation that it ever happened.
I noticed boxrec has removed it from Jack Johnson's record somewhat recently.
Which was good as it was listed as a loss and marred his over all record
for a fight that no one can yet prove (as far as I know)had ever even taken place.
"It says it was syndicated but the only account I can find online is in the Saskatoon paper..." The sum total of newspapers who printed stories throughout history is not compiled for your viewing pleasure online. Talk about lazy research. Believe what you want, just dont be surprised when people who know better look at you like a fool for reprinting this joke.
For those saying its elaborate and a lot of care was taken to manufacture the hoax I would only ask: "really?" You think this is a well crafted hoax? The only thing that stands out about it is lack of detail in which to verify it. That lack of detail, all the way down to the newspaper name being cut off, is by design, not coincidence. Even the quote from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle is fake. I could continue but whats the point, lemmings love to be led by the nose so enjoy the journey. I assure you its endless as you will never find proof it took place and you will refute any evidence to the contrary.
One last thing: The idea that Dempsey deplored exhibitions is about as laughable as the idea that he fought Jack Johnson in private.
So which other newspapers did JACK JOHNSON'S OWN STORY appear in?
Would you please list them here for future reference?
I have to admit I am on a fixed income and cant pay to view newspaper articles over at the pay sites.
Last edited by Brutu on 19 Jun 2013, 17:30, edited 2 times in total.
Chicago Tribune boxing writer Ray Pearson created a hypothetical bout between Dempsey and Johnson taking place in Saskatoon on Dec. 4, 1921, a week before the item appeared in the Eagle. Both stories include a round-by-round account with Dempsey knocking out Johnson in the seventh.
Could be that the true story may be that a Brooklyn Eagle editor/writer heard of a Chicago article about a Johnson/Dempsey hypocthetical and thought it was so vivid it was a real account, and the FACT that both men were in Saskatoon at the same time.... lead him to re-write the hypothetical as a real match that took place when in fact it didn't.
Then again, there could be that possibility (though rather unlikely if this is true that Pearsons did it first) that Pearsons created the interest with both men there, the two champions decided to settle the score, and the Brooklyn Eagle article talked about an actual match that was done with almost mirror results.
Unless someone can find a DECEMBER 4th issue of the CHICAGO TRIBUNE article written by Ray Pearsons and compare it to the Brooklyn Eagle article we will never know.
