BoxRec

Collins2000 wrote:

I Feel Fine wrote:He was being held back; does that make it alright? Why couldn't he promote the fight in some other way? Was it racially motivated? Maybe someone should make a documentary speculating on that incident, Cooney might still be scarred...

So he landed zero blows during this "physical attack"?

And you say I talk nonsense?

I think you are missing the point, but even so, he attacked Berbick and tried to attack Cooney, with people holding him back. What are you not understanding?

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Larry was from the street, if he believed he was being seriously dis-respected, he retaliated.

- Oh come now, he's from Easton, Pennsylvania, population barely 25,000 back when and out in the countryside.

I swear you should quit your day job and go on the comedy circuit.

So Easton, a poor manufacturing town, is now out in the countryside? A shame that you are as clueless about geography and economic realities as you are about boxing.

I Feel Fine wrote:
I think you are missing the point, but even so, he attacked Berbick and tried to attack Cooney, with people holding him back. What are you not understanding?

You stated multiple physical attacks. There was one. I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything am I? Just getting the facts in order, mate. You know how I hate baloney.

And what was different between Ali being 'held back' when he confronted Patterson with a bunch of carrots and Holmes being 'held back' when he confronted Cooney after the Spinks fight?

Are you suggesting that Holmes was not really trying to get at Cooney?

What baloney? I stated that Holmes has attacked opponents. He has. He attacked Berbick, and he went after Cooney but was restrained.

I Feel Fine wrote:Are you suggesting that Holmes was not really trying to get at Cooney?

What baloney? I stated that Holmes has attacked opponents. He has. He attacked Berbick, and he went after Cooney but was restrained.

We agree Holmes attacked Berbick.

What we don't agree on is that he tried to attack Cooney.

Are you suggesting that when Ali did the same thing it was all OK cos it was Ali and he was probably just joking around?

Yet when Homles does it, it's a vicious physical attack?

Or is it that you love Ali so much anything at all he does is just fine and dandy?

Collins, that is a silly comment. My original point was to show that you can point to many fighters doing something to an opponent that is not necessarily kind. I never suggested that Ali never got into pre-fight scuffles, he did with Terrell and he did with Frazier. I don't recall any incident with Patterson where Ali "went at" Patterson, joking or otherwise. My point is that it is hypocritical for Holmes fans, or other fans for that matter, to act as though Ali was a wicked guy, without pointing to the faults in their own favorites. I think I am one of the few posters here who has been willing to be critical of their favorite fighters. Holmes seemed to want to go after Cooney, it did not seem that he was joking. The people around him, Cooney included, did not seem to think that Larry was joking. You are using sophistry, my friend. Holmes made comments about how Cooney would not have gotten anywhere if he was not white. Why is that less insulting than anything Ali had to say about Frazier? The only difference is that Cooney got over it, while Frazier continues to whine about it, likely just looking for attention.

Collins2000 wrote: So he landed zero blows during this "physical attack"?

And you say I talk nonsense?

- My little colly, wrong on both counts as usual.

Larry cut Cosell's mouth after Howie had given Larry and his wife a glowing interview. Now, truth be told this ain't any worse than Ali starting a brawl with Terrell in Astrohall, or starting a fight at ABC studios with Frazier, it's just that Larry does have a mean and nasty streak in him compared to the magical quality of humorous disbelief Ali projected. Herbie Hide when he started that riot at an Audley match is a good comparison, just a nasty little piece of work.

And I'm the one who tells you that you talk nonsense, but like Ali, you project much humorous disbelief in your posts, and free humor is like free manna from heaven.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Collins2000 wrote: So he landed zero blows during this "physical attack"?

And you say I talk nonsense?

- My little colly, wrong on both counts as usual.

Larry cut Cosell's mouth after Howie had given Larry and his wife a glowing interview. Now, truth be told this ain't any worse than Ali starting a brawl with Terrell in Astrohall, or starting a fight at ABC studios with Frazier, it's just that Larry does have a mean and nasty streak in him compared to the magical quality of humorous disbelief Ali projected. Herbie Hide when he started that riot at an Audley match is a good comparison, just a nasty little piece of work.

And I'm the one who tells you that you talk nonsense, but like Ali, you project much humorous disbelief in your posts, and free humor is like free manna from heaven.

I dismissed you as a funny little man last week. And nothing has changed.

Now fekk off. I am discussing important matters with another fan. There is no room for you here. Get thee back to the Jack Dempsey vs Jack Johnson joke thread where you belong, numpty.

A playful epiosode involving that loveable rogue Muhammad Ali.


In Manhattan to publicize his Feb. 6 title fight with Ernie Terrell, he flew completely off the handle when Terrell casually referred to him as "Clay."

"Why do you call me Clay?" he screamed. "You know my right name is Muhammad Ali. It takes an Uncle Tom Negro to call me by my slave name.

You're an Uncle Tom! I'm going to make you an example to the world!"

With that, Clay flung off his jacket and threw a left, which Terrell, luckily perhaps, deflected with an arm. Then Cassius angrily stalked away, accompanied by three Black Muslim bodyguards.

Terrell just shook his head and murmured: "He's an idiot. Just an idiot."

Another day in the fighting life of that cheeky chappy we all love, Muhammad Ali

In Houston last week, Cassius finally became champion of all the world by beating Terrell, the World Boxing Association's champion, in a methodical 15-round fight that shocked quite a few sportswriters. He did not knock Terrell out—or even down.

Instead Cassius carefully closed Ernie's left eye, opened a bloody gash over his right eye that later required seven stitches, and generally made mincemeat of his man. Then, with Terrell dazed and helpless, Clay screamed, "Uncle Tom n*gger!" "What's my name?" he demanded again and again. "That's it, baby!" shouted Clay's Muslim handlers. "Make him say your name!" Terrell refused, and took his licking.

Afterward, Clay announced that he had really enjoyed beating up Ernie "because he said bad things about my advisers."

Re- the HBO doco =

All of these 'anti Ali' incidents come from Ali's own mouth, actual events
that Ali did do. And...yes from things that Frazier says. BUT thinking you
won a fight, telling the public how you feel, and things that did happen this
is Fraziers opinon and experiences....it is clear that it is nothing more or
nothing less than this.

Just to make sure my memory wasn't playing tricks on me, I watched the Holmes - Cooney "incident" on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWeUTRXt1Gw

Hahahahaha, that was Holmes seriously trying to attack Cooney?

You're kidding me. Holmes jumps up, Cosell gets the mic in his face because he was too slow (plus he has arms like spaghetti) and Larry reaches over and seems to try and hit Cooney with a towel or handkerchief he was holding.

That's it.

Cooney and everyone around them seemed very amused. But I can see why you are zeroing in on that incident; wouldn't want us to keep talking about the Berbick incident, where there was no one to hold Larry back.
Holmes ridiculed opponents in the ring. Like Mercer. The idea of citing the Terrell fight as some big thing is an impressive double standard. Ali was angry at Terrell; Holmes was angry at half his opponents.
I will just repeat it one more time in regards to the documentary; it is one thing to give someone's perspective, it is another thing to go along with all of their exaggerated claims. The documentary tried to give weight to Frazier's distorted ideas about those fights, and twisted a lot of things. The way they treated the first fight encapsulates that. When We Were Kings shows the fight from Ali's perspective, but it does not attempt to say that Ali dominated Foreman. If anything, it gives Foreman a bit too much credit for his performance in that fight.

well one could deduce form When we were kings that Ali was the
champion and hero of the Africa's, and the third world, while Foreman
was the boarish muscle of Western enslavement and imperialism.

We could also be lead to believe that Foreman was void of personality
and was just a thunderous punching thug, while Ali the heroic entertainer
the saviour of boxing and hero of the under dog.

Or something to that effect.

I dont see any real problem with either documentary, they allow us to
here from those that were there, the opinions of all involved (well most
that were...) and show us some footage that we may not have seen
prior....

No documentary is free of agenda.

Yep, watch them both and you can sort of "intuit" your way toward the facts of the matter.

Bits & pieces from the man who never thought bad of anyone

The other morning Clay expounded on these and related subjects dear to him. He was lounging in bed at the El Morocco, braying into a pair of microphones that rested on his bare chest. His personal photographer, Howard Bingham, was asleep in the other bed. The man they call Cap'n Sam, who is the secular head of the Miami mosque and makes like Clay's bodyguard, sat attentively in a chair, as though he might be called upon to recite. "Witness this annihilation in your local theater," Clay was saying. "I'm the fastest in the torritory. In the torritery. In the territory.." He then bum-bummed a few bars of the Dead March from Saul. He was cutting a tape for a radio spot on his stereo recorder. He played it back, and the voice faithfully issuing from the twin speakers must have made him feel warm all over. He smiled broadly and winked.

"I don't want the rabbit to make a quick million dollars," Clay said, commencing his exordium. Clay rarely converses. He communicates with his entourage in kind of click language. The rest of the time he harangues—great, fantastic, inflective, nonstop orations, on the order of Dr. Castro's. "I want to punish him. To cause him pain," Clay said. "You find out what a person don't like, then you give it to him. He don't like to be embarrassed, because he has so much pride, so I'm going to make him ashamed. He is going to suffer serious chastisement. The man picked the wrong time to start talking to the wrong man.

...

Why should I let one old Negro make a fool of me? Floyd would be smart to come out and make a national apology. I've got an unseen power going for me. There'll be almost 4 billion Muslims praying for their brother in Islam. We've got sympathizers in his own camp. How is he going to buck all this? This little, old, dumb pork chop eater don't have a chance. From eating pork he's got trillions of maggots and worms settling in his joints. He may even eat slime of the sea.

"I got some new footwork called the chicken scratch."

Clay sprang, naked, out of bed and demonstrated the chicken scratch, which is a nifty, rapid, back-and-forth shuffle performed in place. Clay also claims he has a new weapon called the linger-on punch, the invention of which he attributes to Stepin Fetchit, a perplexing member of his retinue. Step allegedly dreamed up the anchor punch, too, which dropped on Sonny Liston in Lewiston, Me. Says Clay: "The linger-on punch is fired like the anchor punch, but it is a little slower. It don't knock him out. It dazes him. It keeps him numb. It's a push right hand. It's fast, but it's more of a push, and it has more twist. Before the first round is over, people will say, 'Forget it.' It's going to look like a father beating up on his son. I got superior height, weight, balance, reach, speed, strength and youth. I'm going to keep my distance, keep off him. Then bounce in on him. Two jabs. Bip, bip. Circle over here. Jab four times, hit him with a hook, back off. Walk in on him and grab him. Grab his little self and walk with him."

Clay told Cap'n Sam, who goes about 205, to stand up. Clay then clinched with him and manhandled him about the motel room. "You strong," said Cap'n Sam. "It takes a lot out of a man, straining like that," Clay said. "When he lets go, he's winded. You don't get that tired leaning on him. 'Oh, Rabbit, I just hit you seven times. Watch this jab, Rabbit. Bip, bip, bip. Don't get tired, Rabbit. If you fall down, I'm going to pick you up.' I'm going to make him punch, make him wrassle. A lot of times I'm going to let him punch me in the body. I can afford to let him tire himself out beating on my body. I'd be a fool to try to knock him out in one round. I might wear myself out. But Archie Moore told me, 'Don't go out and dance around.' Soon as the bell rings.... "Here, Sam, you be the Rabbit. Turn your back and bob up and down like he does. Bing. I'm in his corner before he's hardly off the stool, like I was in Lewiston, Me." Clay stalked across the carpet and, as Cap'n Sam turned, uncorked a right. "Wouldn't it crack the people up if I did the chicken scratch before I dropped him with a right lead?" Clay said. "Wouldn't that be pretty? Me in my white shoes. I'm going to point before I do it. Point at the spot where he's going to fall. That would be history, wouldn't it? But wouldn't it be hell if he read this and left town before the fight?

"When he's lying there, I'm going to stick a carrot in his mouth, a carrot with some green on it. 'Nibble on it, Rabbit,' I'll tell him. Don't you think that'll make him leave the country? I'm going to hit him so hard it'll jar his kin-' folk in Africa. Before he fights me again, he'd rather run through hell in a gasoline sport coat. He'd rather shave a lion with a dull blade. He will be beat so bad, he will need a shoe horn to put his hat on. How many days did it take God to make the world? Six. He had his pleasures and his work for six days. Since Patterson loves boxing so, I'm going to give him pleasure for six rounds, which symbolizes six days. On the seventh, I'm going to give him his rest."

Interesting comments from Floyd Patterson

I was one of the few who gave Clay a good chance against Sonny at Miami, but I certainly never expected to see Liston give away his title by sitting on a stool in his corner. I lost respect for Sonny Liston in that fight. He showed contempt for the fans and the cheap regard he had for the most prized title boxing offers. I think Sonny Liston was a real good fighter until he won the heavyweight title. As soon as he became champion, Liston retired.

What happened to Liston in Maine? Was the punch which ended that so-called championship fight a legitimate knockout blow? I've been asked these questions a thousand times, and my answer is always the same. Liston was an old man—a very old man—with nothing left. I saw the fight from the working-press section, and I insist that Sonny was knocked out with a legitimate, sharp, hard right-hand chop under his left ear.

No one was more shocked than I to see what had happened to Sonny since he had lost his title at Miami. This was not the same fighter. He was a hollow shell, a man completely without confidence, spirit or condition who was up against a young, cocky and very self-confident champion. Liston's legs and reflexes were gone.

I saw it very plainly. Sonny was pushing toward Clay, who was backing near the ropes. Clay stopped suddenly as Liston got within range and, as Sonny slightly lowered his left shoulder, Clay pumped over a short, chopping right that packed plenty of power.

I have seen Liston take much harder punches, but now he was a different Liston. When he went down he looked more embarrassed than hurt. One look was enough for me. Any fighter can spot the symptoms. Liston was "ring-rusty" and, more than that, age had him in its grip. The parade, for him, was over. Age knocked out Sonny Liston before he even entered the ring at Lewiston. Clay just gave an assist.

Robinson wrote:well one could deduce form When we were kings that Ali was the
champion and hero of the Africa's, and the third world, while Foreman
was the boarish muscle of Western enslavement and imperialism.

We could also be lead to believe that Foreman was void of personality
and was just a thunderous punching thug, while Ali the heroic entertainer
the saviour of boxing and hero of the under dog.

Or something to that effect.

I dont see any real problem with either documentary, they allow us to
here from those that were there, the opinions of all involved (well most
that were...) and show us some footage that we may not have seen
prior....

No documentary is free of agenda.

Fair enough.

"Why do you call me Clay?" he screamed. "You know my right name is Muhammad Ali. It takes an Uncle Tom Negro to call me by my slave name.

You're an Uncle Tom! I'm going to make you an example to the world!"

I like Ali,but these kind of statements are very dangerous.
An english name is a slave name but an arabic name is a symbol of freedom.
Ali is just pathetic,because he is saying that all African Americans who use english names are slaves,but in fact all of us know how he treated women and what happens to the persons who refuse to profess islamic religion inside an islamic country.
They are killed!
He got lucky that a prime Larry Holmes didn't make him pay with words,before and during their fight with remarks like "come on you religious fundamentalist"
What's wrong ?
You're an islamic dumb slave ! I'm going to make you an example to the world!"

I think boxing shouldn't allow these kind of things even during the fight, a name calling would translate in disqualification before during or after a fight.

Instead Cassius carefully closed Ernie's left eye, opened a bloody gash over his right eye that later required seven stitches, and generally made mincemeat of his man. Then, with Terrell dazed and helpless, Clay screamed, "Uncle Tom n*gger!" "What's my name?" he demanded again and again. "That's it, baby!" shouted Clay's Muslim handlers. "Make him say your name!" Terrell refused, and took his licking.

Afterward, Clay announced that he had really enjoyed beating up Ernie "because he said bad things about my advisers."

Ali was saying bad things about every single fighter in the world that fought against him.
Ali was hypocrite.
I guess he was selling the fight like he did with Joe Frazier.

Collins2000 wrote:Interesting comments from Floyd Patterson

I was one of the few who gave Clay a good chance against Sonny at Miami, but I certainly never expected to see Liston give away his title by sitting on a stool in his corner. I lost respect for Sonny Liston in that fight. He showed contempt for the fans and the cheap regard he had for the most prized title boxing offers. I think Sonny Liston was a real good fighter until he won the heavyweight title. As soon as he became champion, Liston retired.

What happened to Liston in Maine? Was the punch which ended that so-called championship fight a legitimate knockout blow? I've been asked these questions a thousand times, and my answer is always the same. Liston was an old man—a very old man—with nothing left. I saw the fight from the working-press section, and I insist that Sonny was knocked out with a legitimate, sharp, hard right-hand chop under his left ear.

No one was more shocked than I to see what had happened to Sonny since he had lost his title at Miami. This was not the same fighter. He was a hollow shell, a man completely without confidence, spirit or condition who was up against a young, cocky and very self-confident champion. Liston's legs and reflexes were gone.

I saw it very plainly. Sonny was pushing toward Clay, who was backing near the ropes. Clay stopped suddenly as Liston got within range and, as Sonny slightly lowered his left shoulder, Clay pumped over a short, chopping right that packed plenty of power.

I have seen Liston take much harder punches, but now he was a different Liston. When he went down he looked more embarrassed than hurt. One look was enough for me. Any fighter can spot the symptoms. Liston was "ring-rusty" and, more than that, age had him in its grip. The parade, for him, was over. Age knocked out Sonny Liston before he even entered the ring at Lewiston. Clay just gave an assist.

Hello Collins, where did you find this quote? I'ts one I'd either forgotten or missed altogether.

Oh and anyone who saw the Ernie Terrell fight knows full well that Ali was very happy to simply beat on Ernie. KO which may have been possible was not in the playbook that night. You can't taunt someone who is asleep.

BoxBuzz wrote:Oh and anyone who saw the Ernie Terrell fight knows full well that Ali was very happy to simply beat on Ernie. KO which may have been possible was not in the playbook that night. You can't taunt someone who is asleep.

- Cosell was responsible for propagating the myth of Ali being able to KO anyone anytime he wanted.

It was complete nonsense Cosell projected onto Ali in his obvious quest to gild Ali with the legend of Jack Johnson for whom the same thing was said.

Anyone seeing the fight understands Terrell was no shrinking violet that fight, brawling and wrestling with him early on as his vision became impaired and landed a half dozen flush right hands that Ali was able to take. Ali finally got Terrell in a spot of trouble with a brilliant mid rd, but was running out of steam by the round's end.

So Cosell allowed as Ali was just toying with him and Joe Louis allowed as how Ali should stop Terrell in the next round, projecting Louis' own talents on Ali. It was much safer to prance around ring center and pop at Terrell endlessly and promote the NOI dogma rather than fight him in a grueling brawlfest at that point since Ali had matters under control.

Cosell did a post fight breakdown with Ali in the studio a week or so later and I don't recall him ever acting as if Terrell could've been knocked out or that he was holding back. Frankly, he fought a dumb fight in the early going and could've gotten hurt, but early in his career he could be drawn into a brawl. Much smarter 2nd half.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:Interesting comments from Floyd Patterson

I was one of the few who gave Clay a good chance against Sonny at Miami, but I certainly never expected to see Liston give away his title by sitting on a stool in his corner. I lost respect for Sonny Liston in that fight. He showed contempt for the fans and the cheap regard he had for the most prized title boxing offers. I think Sonny Liston was a real good fighter until he won the heavyweight title. As soon as he became champion, Liston retired.

What happened to Liston in Maine? Was the punch which ended that so-called championship fight a legitimate knockout blow? I've been asked these questions a thousand times, and my answer is always the same. Liston was an old man—a very old man—with nothing left. I saw the fight from the working-press section, and I insist that Sonny was knocked out with a legitimate, sharp, hard right-hand chop under his left ear.

No one was more shocked than I to see what had happened to Sonny since he had lost his title at Miami. This was not the same fighter. He was a hollow shell, a man completely without confidence, spirit or condition who was up against a young, cocky and very self-confident champion. Liston's legs and reflexes were gone.

I saw it very plainly. Sonny was pushing toward Clay, who was backing near the ropes. Clay stopped suddenly as Liston got within range and, as Sonny slightly lowered his left shoulder, Clay pumped over a short, chopping right that packed plenty of power.

I have seen Liston take much harder punches, but now he was a different Liston. When he went down he looked more embarrassed than hurt. One look was enough for me. Any fighter can spot the symptoms. Liston was "ring-rusty" and, more than that, age had him in its grip. The parade, for him, was over. Age knocked out Sonny Liston before he even entered the ring at Lewiston. Clay just gave an assist.

Hello Collins, where did you find this quote? I'ts one I'd either forgotten or missed altogether.

Oh and anyone who saw the Ernie Terrell fight knows full well that Ali was very happy to simply beat on Ernie. KO which may have been possible was not in the playbook that night. You can't taunt someone who is asleep.

That quote is from Time magazine. They have an on-line archive that you can search. It's free.

I enjoyed re-living Watergate thru that medium.

http://www.time.com/time/archive

Actually, it may have been from Sports Illustrated. They too have a searchable archive.

If you can't find it, let me know and I'll sort out the URL for you.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Oh and anyone who saw the Ernie Terrell fight knows full well that Ali was very happy to simply beat on Ernie. KO which may have been possible was not in the playbook that night. You can't taunt someone who is asleep.

- Cosell was responsible for propagating the myth of Ali being able to KO anyone anytime he wanted.

It was complete nonsense Cosell projected onto Ali in his obvious quest to gild Ali with the legend of Jack Johnson for whom the same thing was said.

Anyone seeing the fight understands Terrell was no shrinking violet that fight, brawling and wrestling with him early on as his vision became impaired and landed a half dozen flush right hands that Ali was able to take. Ali finally got Terrell in a spot of trouble with a brilliant mid rd, but was running out of steam by the round's end.

So Cosell allowed as Ali was just toying with him and Joe Louis allowed as how Ali should stop Terrell in the next round, projecting Louis' own talents on Ali. It was much safer to prance around ring center and pop at Terrell endlessly and promote the NOI dogma rather than fight him in a grueling brawlfest at that point since Ali had matters under control.

Cosell did a post fight breakdown with Ali in the studio a week or so later and I don't recall him ever acting as if Terrell could've been knocked out or that he was holding back. Frankly, he fought a dumb fight in the early going and could've gotten hurt, but early in his career he could be drawn into a brawl. Much smarter 2nd half.

Well thanks, watching it in real time didn't help me at all. I got it all wrong. Good thing you are around to spin this back to reality after my own eyes let me down. Who knew that Cossel had me in his hypnotic grasp? Can I sue ABC....perhaps some sort of class action suit based on how I have been duped into being part of the Ali conspiracy? If I would have willingly helped hype Ali due to my own opinion and analysis, I would then of course take personal responsibility for propagating such misguided rumors about his talent. But since I was under the influence of the puppet master I feel I'm owed some sort of bailout. My next call will of course be to my attorneys.