Ratings - please read before commenting - Archived

jujigatame · Post by **jujigatame** » 18 Mar 2007, 12:19

The home advantage rules continue to do crazy things to the rankings. Before their draw, Cordoba was #5 at BW and Sidorenko was #8. Now, after their draw, Sidorenko has dropped 5 spots to #13 while Cordoba has risen to #2? I personally feel it is time to scrap the home advantage thing entirely. This is an automated system, it should just go by the scores and not attempt to determine which scores were given fairly and which were not. Down that road lies madness. Using these same correction factors for fights ending in KO/TKO is even more insane.

I'd like to see the rankings compiled without the home advantage. My guess is they'd be free of most of the wacky anomalies we see in the rankings today.

computerrank · Post by **computerrank** » 18 Mar 2007, 16:35

Independently from my research - look at this study:

In terms of BoxRec's Ratings it means:

- 33% home advantage for KO
- 100% home advantage for TKO
- 200% home advantage for decision on points

I use a mean value of 100% home advantage for all decisions.

There is all reason not to disregard for this.

A boxer only drawing in a home bout, nearly always would have lost the bout abroad.

-------------------

Do judges enhance home advantage in European championship boxing?
Authors: Balmer, NJ1; Nevill, AM2; Lane, AM2

Source: Journal of Sports Sciences, Volume 23, Number 4, April 2005, pp. 409-416(8)

Publisher: Taylor and Francis Ltd

Abstract:

There have been many examples of contentious points decisions in boxing. Professional boxing is scored subjectively by judges and referees scoring each round of the contest. We assessed whether the probability of a home win (and therefore home advantage) increased when bouts were decided by points decisions rather than knockouts. Overall, we found that bouts ending in points decisions had a significantly higher proportion of home wins than those decided by a knockout, though this effect varied across time, and controlling for relative quality of boxers was only effective when using more recent data. Focusing on these data, again the probability of a home win was higher with a points decision and this effect was consistent as “relative quality” varied. For equally matched boxers (“relative quality”??=??0), expected probability of a home win was 0.57 for knockouts, 0.66 for technical knockouts and 0.74 for points decisions. The results of the present study lend general support to the notion that home advantage is more prevalent in sports that involve subjective decision-making. We suggest that interventions should be designed to inform judges to counter home advantage effects.

emile · Post by **emile** » 18 Mar 2007, 17:37

The hometown factor is problematic for a number of reasons, for me primarily because the definition of hometown is so arbitrary. Fighting twice in one country is a strange way to determine this and creates many obvious situations where the application is obscure.

I can understand that if you are looking at two similar fighters and one has beaten all his foes in his hometown, and the other is a road warrior - that there would be a natural favoring of the second fighter in people's minds. But overall, I think the hometown bonus is an unnecessary remnant from the predictive ratings and should not be used, or only used very modestly in achievement ratings. If I was determining who to bet on, the ability of a fighter to win in unfamiliar surroundings might play a part in my bet. In an objective rating system of top fighters, it shouldn't matter much - I can empathize with the urge to editorialize and reward fighters who take high-risk fights - but ultimately boxing is about results and hometown advantages are just part of the business of the sport. As a way to shade two fighters who are otherwise even, I can see it. Otherwise, it is not helpful as the Argentinian examples are showing.

jujigatame · Post by **jujigatame** » 18 Mar 2007, 19:49

emile's argument is valid, determining who the "home" fighter is can be extremely problematic. Also, you have clearly gone overboard with the bonuses being given, which is evidenced by numerous fighters with completely inexplicable rankings. I can understand that the hometown judging phenomenon exists but the mechanism you have put in place to try and cancel it out has made a mockery of your entire rankings system, with guys who happen to fight away from home a lot getting absurdly overrated. I mean, if you can't see that Mamani's ranking is a serious anomaly that should be addressed, I really don't know what else to say.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 19 Mar 2007, 12:58

jujigatame wrote:emile's argument is valid, determining who the "home" fighter is can be extremely problematic. Also, you have clearly gone overboard with the bonuses being given, which is evidenced by numerous fighters with completely inexplicable rankings. I can understand that the hometown judging phenomenon exists but the mechanism you have put in place to try and cancel it out has made a mockery of your entire rankings system, with guys who happen to fight away from home a lot getting absurdly overrated. I mean, if you can't see that Mamani's ranking is a serious anomaly that should be addressed, I really don't know what else to say.

I got this funny feeling that if the home advantage were dropped, you would not like what you saw :). I get a feeling somebody like Dimitrenko will enter the Top 10.

I would like to see something that falls in line with the numbers shown in the study above... Such as a mean value of 35%, rather than 100%.

jujigatame · Post by **jujigatame** » 19 Mar 2007, 13:17

JCS83MD wrote:
jujigatame wrote:emile's argument is valid, determining who the "home" fighter is can be extremely problematic. Also, you have clearly gone overboard with the bonuses being given, which is evidenced by numerous fighters with completely inexplicable rankings. I can understand that the hometown judging phenomenon exists but the mechanism you have put in place to try and cancel it out has made a mockery of your entire rankings system, with guys who happen to fight away from home a lot getting absurdly overrated. I mean, if you can't see that Mamani's ranking is a serious anomaly that should be addressed, I really don't know what else to say.
I got this funny feeling that if the home advantage were dropped, you would not like what you saw :). I get a feeling somebody like Dimitrenko will enter the Top 10.

I would like to see something that falls in line with the numbers shown in the study above... Such as a mean value of 35%, rather than 100%.

Fair enough.

computerrank · Post by **computerrank** » 19 Mar 2007, 16:28

@jason

The study does not show a mean home advantage of 35%. It found:

...expected probability of a home win (for equally matched boxers) was

- 0.57 for knockouts,
- 0.66 for technical knockouts
- 0.74 for points decisions

This means a home advantage factor of:

- 0.57 / 0.43 = 1.3 for KO
- 0.66 / 0.34 = 2.0 for TKO
- 0.74 / 0.26 = 3.0 for point decisions

BoxRec's home advantage is 2.0

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 19 Mar 2007, 16:32

computerrank wrote:@jason

The study does not show a mean home advantage of 35%. It found:

...expected probability of a home win (for equally matched boxers) was

- 0.57 for knockouts,
- 0.66 for technical knockouts
- 0.74 for points decisions

This means a home advantage factor of:

- 0.57 / 0.43 = 1.3 for KO
- 0.66 / 0.34 = 2.0 for TKO
- 0.74 / 0.26 = 3.0 for point decisions

BoxRec's home advantage is 2.0

Ok, I read incorrectly.

Perhaps we should use values for each decision type if there is that large of a variation. Handling draws.. I don't know about that.

Then again, this is for evenly matched fighters, so I cannot see how these variables can apply to ALL bouts.

Evenly matched fighters tend to fight close bouts, no matter the site of the fight. Since we are dealing with 1s and 0s, the slightest tilt could change a win into a loss, for the deserving fighter. I believe we should derive a better way to calculate the home advantage.

jujigatame · Post by **jujigatame** » 19 Mar 2007, 17:03

computerrank, don't you see the flaws in this reasoning? You are making the leap of faith that if fights were judged fairly and correctly, hometown fighters would win 50% of the time. Did it not occur to you that the hometown fighter is usually MUCH BETTER than the guy they are bringing in to fight him?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 19 Mar 2007, 17:34

computerrank wrote:... the traces ...

w+: win, current performance better than current all time rating, lowest performance since last improvement may lower current all time rating in first step, then all time rating improved in second step

W-: win, current performance lower than current all time rating, close decision, new lowest performance since last improvement

L+: loss, current performance better than current all time rating, close decision, lowest performance since last improvement may lower current all time rating in first step, then all time rating improved in second step

L-: loss, new lowest performance since last improvement

Code: Select all


id         date   W/L  perf   r+  l_p+    r0  l_p0  opponents

000645 1986-10-24 W+     0     0 99999     0 99999 Steve Collins vs. Julio Mercado
000645 1986-11-26 W+    21     1 99999     0 99999 Steve Collins vs. Mike Bonislawski
000645 1986-12-20 W+    21     3 99999     1 99999 Steve Collins vs. Richard Holloway
000645 1987-10-10 W+    23     5 99999     3 99999 Steve Collins vs. Richard Holmes
000645 1987-10-29 W+    67     9 99999     5 99999 Steve Collins vs. Harold Souther
000645 1987-11-20 W+    81    13 99999     9 99999 Steve Collins vs. Mike Williams
000645 1987-12-09 W+    75    17 99999    13 99999 Steve Collins vs. Benny Sims
000645 1988-05-26 W+   138    27 99999    17 99999 Steve Collins vs. Lester Yarbrough
000645 1988-07-30 W+   140    34 99999    27 99999 Steve Collins vs. Michael Dale
000645 1988-10-22 W+   127    44 99999    34 99999 Steve Collins vs. Muhammad Shabazz
000645 1988-12-10 W+   125    49 99999    44 99999 Steve Collins vs. Jesse Lanton
000645 1989-02-07 W+   243    68 99999    49 99999 Steve Collins vs. Paul McPeek
000645 1989-11-21 W+   442   106 99999    68 99999 Steve Collins vs. Roberto Rosiles
000645 1990-08-16 W+   511   146 99999   106 99999 Steve Collins vs. Fermin Chirino
000645 1990-11-24 W+   459   172 99999   146 99999 Steve Collins vs. Eddie Hall
000645 1991-05-11 W+   557   211 99999   172 99999 Steve Collins vs. Kenny Snow
000645 1991-12-11 W+   613   251 99999   211 99999 Steve Collins vs. Dan Morgan
000645 1993-02-06 W+   507   277 99999   251 99999 Steve Collins vs. Johnny Melfah
000645 1993-02-20 W+   533   302 99999   277 99999 Steve Collins vs. Ian Strudwick
000645 1994-02-09 W+   620   324 99999   302 99999 Steve Collins vs. Paul Wesley
000645 1995-03-18 W+  1186   410 99999   324 99999 Steve Collins vs. Chris Eubank
000645 1995-09-09 W+   819   451 99999   410 99999 Steve Collins vs. Chris Eubank
000645 1995-11-25 W+   894   495 99999   451 99999 Steve Collins vs. Cornelius Carr
000645 1996-03-09 W+   840   529 99999   495 99999 Steve Collins vs. Neville Brown
000645 1996-07-06 W+  1293   606 99999   529 99999 Steve Collins vs. Nigel Benn
000645 1996-11-09 W+  1357   681 99999   606 99999 Steve Collins vs. Nigel Benn
000645 1997-02-08 W+  1235   736 99999   681 99999 Steve Collins vs. Frederic Seillier
000645 1997-07-05 W+  1301   793 99999   736 99999 Steve Collins vs. Craig Cummings

000739 1990-01-14 W+   391    33 99999     0 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Sanderline Williams
000739 1991-10-26 W+   847   100 99999    33 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Lenzie Morgan
000739 1991-12-07 W+   847   175 99999   100 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Hector Lescano
000739 1992-02-19 W+   710   229 99999   175 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Dan Sherry
000739 1992-10-03 W+  1204   326 99999   229 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Mauro Galvano
000739 1992-12-12 W+  1151   409 99999   326 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Nicky Piper
000739 1993-03-06 W+   992   467 99999   409 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Mauro Galvano
000739 1993-06-26 W+   967   517 99999   467 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Lou Gent
000739 1993-10-09 L+   962   561 99999   517 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Chris Eubank
000739 1994-02-26 W+   774   583 99999   561 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Henry Wharton
000739 1994-09-10 W+   645   589 99999   583 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra
000739 1995-02-25 W+  1249   655 99999   589 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Gerald McClellan
000739 1995-07-22 W+  1026   692 99999   655 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Vincenzo Nardiello
000739 1995-09-02 W+   992   722 99999   692 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Danny Perez
000739 1996-03-02 L+   755   725 99999   722 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Thulani Malinga
000739 1996-07-06 L-   428   725   428   725 99999 Nigel Benn vs. Steve Collins
000739 1996-11-09 L-   383   725   383   725   428 Nigel Benn vs. Steve Collins

000804 1989-01-31 W+   167    17 99999     0 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Simon Collins
000804 1991-06-22 W+  1206   136 99999    17 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Michael Watson
000804 1991-09-21 W+  1501   272 99999   136 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Michael Watson
000804 1992-02-01 W+   795   324 99999   272 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Thulani Malinga
000804 1992-04-25 W+   877   380 99999   324 99999 Chris Eubank vs. John Jarvis
000804 1992-06-27 W+  1095   451 99999   380 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Ron Essett
000804 1992-09-19 W+  1073   513 99999   451 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Tony Thornton
000804 1992-11-28 W+   952   557 99999   513 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra
000804 1993-02-20 W+  1050   607 99999   557 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Lindell Holmes
000804 1993-05-15 W+   822   628 99999   607 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Ray Close
000804 1993-10-09 W+   962   661 99999   628 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Nigel Benn
000804 1994-02-05 W+   721   667 99999   661 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Graciano Rocchigiani
000804 1994-05-21 W+   932   694 99999   667 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Ray Close
000804 1994-07-09 W-   565   694   565   694 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Mauricio Amaral Costa
000804 1994-08-27 W+   714   684   565   694   565 Chris Eubank vs. Sam Storey
000804 1994-10-15 W-   585   684   585   684 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Dan Schommer
000804 1994-12-10 W+   700   677   585   684   585 Chris Eubank vs. Henry Wharton
000804 1995-03-18 L+   719   681 99999   677 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Steve Collins
000804 1995-09-09 L+  1195   733 99999   681 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Steve Collins
000804 1997-10-11 L-   299   733   299   733 99999 Chris Eubank vs. Joe Calzaghe

002629 1980-01-02 W+   293    29 99999     0 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Jose Gutierrez
002629 1980-01-15 W+   296    56 99999    29 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Al Bell
002629 1980-01-26 W+   294    80 99999    56 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Gus Turner
002629 1980-02-01 W+   524   124 99999    80 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Julius Noble
002629 1980-03-08 W+   880   200 99999   124 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Don Addison
002629 1980-04-13 W+   718   252 99999   200 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Eddie Smith
002629 1980-07-08 W+   565   283 99999   252 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Greg Payne
002629 1980-08-11 W+   659   321 99999   283 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Benny Mitchell
002629 1980-08-15 W+   606   349 99999   321 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Stanley Scott
002629 1980-09-12 W+   601   374 99999   349 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. John Cox
002629 1980-09-13 W+   541   391 99999   374 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Joey Butcher
002629 1980-10-04 W+   590   411 99999   391 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Phil Wade
002629 1980-10-25 W+  1468   517 99999   411 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Pablo (Paul) Ramos
002629 1980-12-05 W+  1096   575 99999   517 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. John Beveridge
002629 1981-02-13 W+   999   617 99999   575 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Rocky Mack
002629 1981-02-27 W+  1104   666 99999   617 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Fred Brown
002629 1981-07-29 W+  1146   714 99999   666 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. James Williams
002629 1981-09-09 W+  1025   745 99999   714 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Darnell Hayes
002629 1982-02-13 W+   878   758 99999   745 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Chris Wells
002629 1982-10-21 W+  1240   806 99999   758 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Fred Reed
002629 1982-11-23 W+  1706   881 99999   806 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Mario Maldonado
002629 1983-02-04 W-   572   881   572   881 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Robbie Sims
002629 1983-05-27 W+  1363   902   572   881   572 Murray Sutherland vs. Jean-Marie Emebe
002629 1983-09-13 W+  1365   940 99999   902 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Alex Ramos
002629 1984-03-28 W+  1312   977 99999   940 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Ernie Singletary
002629 1984-07-22 L-   840   977   840   977 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Chong Pal Park
002629 1984-12-08 W+  1217   989   840   977   840 Murray Sutherland vs. Wilford Scypion
002629 1985-02-09 W+  1182  1008 99999   989 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Lenny Edwards
002629 1985-03-01 W+  1353  1043 99999  1008 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Robert Pew
002629 1985-05-31 W+  1170  1056 99999  1043 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Lloyd Richardson
002629 1985-07-26 L-   757  1056   757  1056 99999 Murray Sutherland vs. Bobby Czyz
002629 1986-02-25 L-   386  1056   386  1056   757 Murray Sutherland vs. Lindell Holmes

009041 1926-10-01 W+    76     5 99999     0 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Herman van't Hof
009041 1927-01-07 W+   152    20 99999     5 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Jack Stanley
009041 1928-04-04 W+   277    45 99999    20 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Franz Diener
009041 1929-01-21 W+   476    88 99999    45 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Pietro Corri
009041 1929-02-01 W+   711   151 99999    88 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Johnny Risko
009041 1929-06-27 W+   933   229 99999   151 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Paolino Uzcudun
009041 1930-06-12 W+  1561   273 99999   229 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Jack Sharkey
009041 1931-07-03 W+  1511   397 99999   273 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Young Stribling
009041 1932-06-21 L+   902   448 99999   397 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Jack Sharkey
009041 1933-06-08 L-   516   448   516   448 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Max Baer
009041 1934-05-13 W+   726   475   516   448   516 Max Schmeling vs. Paolino Uzcudun
009041 1936-06-19 W+  2079   636 99999   475 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Joe Louis
009041 1938-01-30 W+   820   654 99999   636 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Ben Foord
009041 1938-06-22 L-   618   654   618   654 99999 Max Schmeling vs. Joe Louis

010744 1904-08-19 W+   134    13 99999     0 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Cyclone Kelly
010744 1906-02-23 W+  2009   213 99999    13 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Marvin Hart
010744 1906-10-02 W+  1563   348 99999   213 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Fireman Jim Flynn
010744 1906-11-28 W+  1302   443 99999   348 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
010744 1907-05-08 W+  1645   563 99999   443 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
010744 1907-07-04 W+  1548   662 99999   563 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Bill Squires
010744 1907-12-02 W+  1784   774 99999   662 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Gunner Moir
010744 1908-02-10 W+  2124   909 99999   774 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Jack Palmer
010744 1908-03-17 W+  1693   988 99999   909 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Jem Roche
010744 1908-04-18 W+  1719  1061 99999   988 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Jewey Smith
010744 1908-06-13 W+  1945  1149 99999  1061 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Bill Squires
010744 1908-08-24 W+  2186  1253 99999  1149 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Bill Squires
010744 1908-09-02 W+  2761  1404 99999  1253 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Bill Lang
010744 1908-12-26 L-  1110  1404  1110  1404 99999 Tommy Burns vs. Jack Johnson
010744 1913-04-02 W-   235  1404   235  1404  1110 Tommy Burns vs. Arthur Pelkey
010744 1920-07-16 L-    83  1404    83  1404   235 Tommy Burns vs. Joe Beckett

012052 1925-05-07 W+   896    90 99999     0 99999 Young Stribling vs. Quintin Romero Rojas
012052 1927-04-07 W+  1006   181 99999    90 99999 Young Stribling vs. Jack Melrose
012052 1928-02-27 W+   971   260 99999   181 99999 Young Stribling vs. Al Friedman
012052 1928-04-23 W+   967   331 99999   260 99999 Young Stribling vs. Joe White
012052 1928-05-18 W+   886   386 99999   331 99999 Young Stribling vs. Marcella Gubinelli
012052 1928-06-07 W+  1016   439 99999   386 99999 Young Stribling vs. Harry Fay
012052 1928-07-02 W+   886   484 99999   439 99999 Young Stribling vs. Wild Bill Rowe
012052 1928-09-06 W+   974   533 99999   484 99999 Young Stribling vs. Johnny Squires
012052 1928-11-30 W+  1048   584 99999   533 99999 Young Stribling vs. Ray Neuman
012052 1928-12-18 W+  1057   631 99999   584 99999 Young Stribling vs. Billy Freas
012052 1929-01-01 W+  1189   687 99999   631 99999 Young Stribling vs. Jack League
012052 1929-02-27 L-   603   687   603   687 99999 Young Stribling vs. Jack Sharkey
012052 1929-11-06 W+   969   708   603   687   603 Young Stribling vs. Maurice Griselle
012052 1929-12-07 W+   884   718 99999   708 99999 Young Stribling vs. Primo Carnera
012052 1930-07-28 W+  1028   749 99999   718 99999 Young Stribling vs. Phil Scott
012052 1930-10-31 W+   971   771 99999   749 99999 Young Stribling vs. K O Christner
012052 1930-11-11 W+  1055   795 99999   771 99999 Young Stribling vs. Arthur De Kuh
012052 1930-12-12 W+  1428   848 99999   795 99999 Young Stribling vs. Tuffy Griffiths
012052 1931-07-03 L-   502   848   502   848 99999 Young Stribling vs. Max Schmeling
012052 1933-03-06 L-   454   848   454   848   502 Young Stribling vs. Pierre Charles

012071 1927-04-01 W+   254    25 99999     0 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Ad Stone
012071 1927-05-20 W+   395    44 99999    25 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Murray Gitlitz
012071 1928-01-03 W+   452    78 99999    44 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Yale Okun
012071 1928-01-30 W+   501   113 99999    78 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Benny Touchstone
012071 1928-04-30 L-   209   113   209   113 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Harold Mays
012071 1928-05-25 L-   124   113   124   113   209 Ernie Schaaf vs. Clayton (Big Boy) Peterson
012071 1929-07-06 W+   558   158   124   113   124 Ernie Schaaf vs. Murray Gitlitz
012071 1930-01-10 W+   417   179 99999   158 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Al Friedman
012071 1930-12-19 W+   881   238 99999   179 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Max Baer
012071 1931-01-23 W+   556   264 99999   238 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Jim Braddock
012071 1931-01-26 W+   651   297 99999   264 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Dick Daniels
012071 1931-02-16 W+   657   333 99999   297 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Dick Daniels
012071 1931-02-24 W+   677   361 99999   333 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Dynamite Jackson
012071 1931-03-27 W+   502   373 99999   361 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Paul Pantaleo
012071 1931-07-10 W+   636   399 99999   373 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Jim Maloney
012071 1931-08-31 W+   853   445 99999   399 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Victorio Campolo
012071 1931-09-23 W+  1040   494 99999   445 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Tuffy Griffiths
012071 1931-11-19 W+  1060   541 99999   494 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Jack Dorval
012071 1932-02-05 W+  1044   592 99999   541 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Salvatore Ruggirello
012071 1932-05-16 W+  1053   638 99999   592 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Unknown Winston
012071 1932-06-07 W+  1173   682 99999   638 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Tony Galento
012071 1932-07-07 W+   782   692 99999   682 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Salvatore Ruggirello
012071 1932-07-25 W+   821   705 99999   692 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Paolino Uzcudun
012071 1932-08-31 L-   414   705   414   705 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Max Baer
012071 1932-10-20 L-   279   705   279   705   414 Ernie Schaaf vs. Unknown Winston
012071 1933-01-06 W+  1120   708   279   705   279 Ernie Schaaf vs. Stanley Poreda
012071 1933-02-10 L-   407   708   407   708 99999 Ernie Schaaf vs. Primo Carnera

012086 1928-09-12 W+    12     1 99999     0 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Leon Sebilo
012086 1928-09-25 W+    27     4 99999     1 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Joe Thomas
012086 1928-10-30 W+    94    13 99999     4 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Salvatore Ruggirello
012086 1928-11-25 W+    81    19 99999    13 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Epifanio Islas
012086 1928-12-01 W+   124    29 99999    19 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Constant Barrick
012086 1929-04-28 L-   150    29   150    29 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Franz Diener
012086 1929-05-22 W+   186    42   150    29   150 Primo Carnera vs. Moise Bouquillon
012086 1929-05-30 W+   167    55 99999    42 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Marcel Nilles
012086 1929-06-26 W+   152    64 99999    55 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Jack Humbeeck
012086 1929-10-17 W+   211    79 99999    64 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Jack Stanley
012086 1929-12-07 L-   272    79   272    79 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Young Stribling
012086 1929-12-17 W+   406   112   272    79   272 Primo Carnera vs. Franz Diener
012086 1930-01-24 W+   472   148 99999   112 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Clayton (Big Boy) Peterson
012086 1930-01-31 W+   462   179 99999   148 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Elzear Rioux
012086 1930-02-06 W+   429   204 99999   179 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Cowboy Billy Owens
012086 1930-02-11 W+   377   221 99999   204 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Buster Martin
012086 1930-02-14 W+   378   237 99999   221 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Jim Sigmund
012086 1930-02-17 W+   437   257 99999   237 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Johnny Erickson
012086 1930-02-24 W+   380   269 99999   257 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Francis Lodge
012086 1930-03-03 W+   449   287 99999   269 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Roy (Ace) Clark
012086 1930-03-11 W+   404   299 99999   287 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Sully Montgomery
012086 1930-03-17 W+   548   324 99999   299 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Chuck Wiggins
012086 1930-03-20 W+   435   335 99999   324 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Frank Zaveta
012086 1930-03-26 W+   452   347 99999   335 99999 Primo Carnera vs. George Trafton
012086 1930-03-28 W+   454   357 99999   347 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Jack McAuliffe II
012086 1930-04-08 W+   720   394 99999   357 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Neil Clisby
012086 1930-04-14 W+   646   419 99999   394 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Leon Chevalier
012086 1930-04-22 W+   566   434 99999   419 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Sam Baker
012086 1930-06-05 W+   678   458 99999   434 99999 Primo Carnera vs. K O Christner
012086 1930-06-23 W+   895   476 99999   458 99999 Primo Carnera vs. George Godfrey
012086 1930-07-17 W+  1104   539 99999   476 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Bearcat Wright
012086 1930-07-29 W+  1030   588 99999   539 99999 Primo Carnera vs. George Cook
012086 1930-08-30 W+   983   628 99999   588 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Riccardo Bertazzolo
012086 1930-09-08 W+   902   655 99999   628 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Pat McCarthy
012086 1930-09-17 W+  1083   698 99999   655 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Jack Gross
012086 1930-11-30 W+   961   720 99999   698 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Paolino Uzcudun
012086 1930-12-18 W+   822   730 99999   720 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Reggie Meen
012086 1931-03-05 W+   845   740 99999   730 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Jim Maloney
012086 1931-06-15 W+   749   740 99999   740 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Pat Redmond
012086 1931-06-30 W+   829   749 99999   740 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Bud Gorman
012086 1931-10-12 L-   425   749   425   749 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Jack Sharkey
012086 1932-05-30 L-   311   749   311   749   425 Primo Carnera vs. Larry Gains
012086 1933-02-10 W+  1053   740   311   749   311 Primo Carnera vs. Ernie Schaaf
012086 1933-06-29 W+  1528   819 99999   740 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Jack Sharkey
012086 1933-10-22 W+  1039   841 99999   819 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Paolino Uzcudun
012086 1934-03-01 W+  1253   882 99999   841 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Tommy Loughran
012086 1934-06-14 L-   624   882   624   882 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Max Baer
012086 1934-12-01 W+   896   860   624   882   624 Primo Carnera vs. Victorio Campolo
012086 1935-01-22 W+   880   862 99999   860 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Erwin Klausner
012086 1935-06-25 L-   461   862   461   862 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Joe Louis
012086 1935-11-01 W+   960   836   461   862   461 Primo Carnera vs. Walter Neusel
012086 1935-11-25 W+   837   836 99999   836 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Ford Smith
012086 1936-03-06 W+   853   838 99999   836 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Isidoro Gastanaga
012086 1936-03-16 L-   328   838   328   838 99999 Primo Carnera vs. Leroy Haynes
012086 1936-05-27 L-   269   838   269   838   328 Primo Carnera vs. Leroy Haynes
012086 1937-11-18 L-    22   838    22   838   269 Primo Carnera vs. Albert DiMeglio
012086 1945-11-21 L-    12   838    12   838    22 Primo Carnera vs. Luigi Musina
012086 1946-03-19 L-    11   838    11   838    12 Primo Carnera vs. Luigi Musina

What I take from there is that Tommy Burns gets more points for beating Jack Palmer or Bill Lang than Max Schmeling gets for beating Joe Louis.

Sorry but such a ranking scheme looks pointless.
Why don't you just reactivate the previous version? It made clearly more sense.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 19 Mar 2007, 17:40

jujigatame wrote:computerrank, don't you see the flaws in this reasoning? You are making the leap of faith that if fights were judged fairly and correctly, hometown fighters would win 50% of the time. Did it not occur to you that the hometown fighter is usually MUCH BETTER than the guy they are bringing in to fight him?

In his study, he claims he came up with these variables using equally ranked fighters. I stated what I believe to be the problem with that reasoning in my previous reply.

jujigatame · Post by **jujigatame** » 19 Mar 2007, 19:36

How are they determining "relative quality"? The whole thing reeks of fuzzy math.

jujigatame · Post by **jujigatame** » 19 Mar 2007, 19:38

By the way, you say that without the hometown factor, guys like Dimitrenko would be super highly rated. Well, as far as I can recall, none of Dimitrenko's victories have been controversial, so if the opponents he's beaten warrant a high ranking, then so be it!!

Lennox · Post by **Lennox** » 21 Mar 2007, 14:34

When you compile an all time ratings, surely you can only take into account the titles won and defended. We need to see champions in the first 20 not journeymen. Long ago there was only 1 sanctioning body, so for someone who was champ for 3 years, made 9 defences, could you not develop a system to reward the number of defences. As more sanctioning bodies evolved, could the system take into account the linear champion. Im sure there must be some maths system that could allocate an all time points. Each fight/ defence would ammass a diff number of points perhaps by a secondary system more based on the one at the moment. No one would get a point on the All time rankings if he was never a Linear champion.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 21 Mar 2007, 14:40

Lennox wrote:When you compile an all time ratings, surely you can only take into account the titles won and defended. We need to see champions in the first 20 not journeymen. Long ago there was only 1 sanctioning body, so for someone who was champ for 3 years, made 9 defences, could you not develop a system to reward the number of defences. As more sanctioning bodies evolved, could the system take into account the linear champion. Im sure there must be some maths system that could allocate an all time points. Each fight/ defence would ammass a diff number of points perhaps by a secondary system more based on the one at the moment. No one would get a point on the All time rankings if he was never a Linear champion.

I don't think you can use the linear championship as a "say all" in determining who is worthy of all time points. Developing an all-time system has got to be the hardest of them all... but I think we need to get the current ratings ironed out first.

I'd love to help out, and I did when we went on our little "best prediction" experiment. However, when you have a site owner who doesn't want to come off the database (even though its publicly available anyway), noone with enough time to dedicate, an archaic programming language & interface, a true coder's optimized code, it gets tiresome.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 22 Mar 2007, 03:56

Cobwebcat wrote:I agree with Computerrank that titles in themselves are meaningless it's just that the parameters need changing.

You mean me.. :)

jujigatame · Post by **jujigatame** » 22 Mar 2007, 10:25

I wonder, is there a way that we could get the rankings compiled w/o home advantage just to see how they look? JCS, have you already tried this?

computerrank · Post by **computerrank** » 22 Mar 2007, 11:47

... on my schedule ...

1. test run without home advantage

2. test run with home advantage based on

- the relation of event promotor to boxer,
- instead of event country to boxer - as used currently

results will be published here

jujigatame · Post by **jujigatame** » 22 Mar 2007, 12:05

Thanks a lot, CR, your efforts are much appreciated!!

Lennox · Post by **Lennox** » 22 Mar 2007, 14:24

JCS83MD wrote:
Lennox wrote:When you compile an all time ratings, surely you can only take into account the titles won and defended. We need to see champions in the first 20 not journeymen. Long ago there was only 1 sanctioning body, so for someone who was champ for 3 years, made 9 defences, could you not develop a system to reward the number of defences. As more sanctioning bodies evolved, could the system take into account the linear champion. Im sure there must be some maths system that could allocate an all time points. Each fight/ defence would ammass a diff number of points perhaps by a secondary system more based on the one at the moment. No one would get a point on the All time rankings if he was never a Linear champion.
I don't think you can use the linear championship as a "say all" in determining who is worthy of all time points. Developing an all-time system has got to be the hardest of them all... but I think we need to get the current ratings ironed out first.

I'd love to help out, and I did when we went on our little "best prediction" experiment. However, when you have a site owner who doesn't want to come off the database (even though its publicly available anyway), noone with enough time to dedicate, an archaic programming language & interface, a true coder's optimized code, it gets tiresome.

I think that years ago the champion was the king, today it is not so and often there are 4 champions and the real King is someone beltless. Ive not really studied the ATR deeply but I would have thought you would need to develop some form of score/points that is the peak that the fighter achieved. I would imagine a best of the last 25 years rating could be easily achieved, old time stuff must be tougher.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 22 Mar 2007, 14:31

Lennox wrote:
JCS83MD wrote:
Lennox wrote:When you compile an all time ratings, surely you can only take into account the titles won and defended. We need to see champions in the first 20 not journeymen. Long ago there was only 1 sanctioning body, so for someone who was champ for 3 years, made 9 defences, could you not develop a system to reward the number of defences. As more sanctioning bodies evolved, could the system take into account the linear champion. Im sure there must be some maths system that could allocate an all time points. Each fight/ defence would ammass a diff number of points perhaps by a secondary system more based on the one at the moment. No one would get a point on the All time rankings if he was never a Linear champion.
I don't think you can use the linear championship as a "say all" in determining who is worthy of all time points. Developing an all-time system has got to be the hardest of them all... but I think we need to get the current ratings ironed out first.

I'd love to help out, and I did when we went on our little "best prediction" experiment. However, when you have a site owner who doesn't want to come off the database (even though its publicly available anyway), noone with enough time to dedicate, an archaic programming language & interface, a true coder's optimized code, it gets tiresome.
I think that years ago the champion was the king, today it is not so and often there are 4 champions and the real King is someone beltless. Ive not really studied the ATR deeply but I would have thought you would need to develop some form of score/points that is the peak that the fighter achieved. I would imagine a best of the last 25 years rating could be easily achieved, old time stuff must be tougher.

Using peak rating might not be the best way to do it either. I think its a part of the equation.. but doesn't tell the whole story. I could beat Ali in his prime, in my first fight, then lose 20 straight to journeymen. Using peak rating alone, I probably would be #1 all time in heavyweights.

computerrank · Post by **computerrank** » 22 Mar 2007, 15:23

All Time Ratings should represent - from my perspective

1. the achievements in the particular weight division only

2. depend on the best performances

3. depend on low performances against non top opponents in peak career time - should lower the average

------------------

All this is done currently:

2 variables are used while calculating the all time rating bout per bout

a. the current all time rating in the division

- the current all time rating increases after a good result (performance), higher than the current all time rating
- the current all time rating decreases after a bad result (performance), lower than the current all time rating

b. the peak all time rating in the division

- the peak all time rating holds the maximum current all time rating
- the peak all time rating after regarding all bouts is the published all time rating.

computerrank · Post by **computerrank** » 22 Mar 2007, 16:05

Boxrec All Time Ratings show the all time performance in a division.

You propose to have All Time P4P Ratings - this would be in addition and is not implemented yet.

The assignment of the boxers to a division is bound the editors' decision - not the program's.

So PBF will be assigned to his best division after his retirement.

Lennox · Post by **Lennox** » 22 Mar 2007, 16:46

computerrank wrote:Boxrec All Time Ratings show the all time performance in a division.

You propose to have All Time P4P Ratings - this would be in addition and is not implemented yet.

The assignment of the boxers to a division is bound the editors' decision - not the program's.

So PBF will be assigned to his best division after his retirement.

Once again the biggest problem is the formula is wrong. all time ratings in order to capture the carreer cant be assigned to a single division. Other than heavyweights most boxers compete in a number of divisions within their time, achievements most be counted from both categorys.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 22 Mar 2007, 16:48

Lennox wrote:
computerrank wrote:Boxrec All Time Ratings show the all time performance in a division.

You propose to have All Time P4P Ratings - this would be in addition and is not implemented yet.

The assignment of the boxers to a division is bound the editors' decision - not the program's.

So PBF will be assigned to his best division after his retirement.
Once again the biggest problem is the formula is wrong. all time ratings in order to capture the carreer cant be assigned to a single division. Other than heavyweights most boxers compete in a number of divisions within their time, achievements most be counted from both categorys.

People used to complain when the all time ratings werent divisional... You can't please everyone.