BoxRec

In the 1930's the 'Drednaught' division was talked about when giants like Primo Carnera and Ray Impaltiere roamed the heavyweight landscape. But it wasnt until 1972 that the term 'Super Heavyweight' was coined by Lew Eskin when Buster Mathis (280) took on 260 pound Humphrey McBride for the 'World Super Heavyweight' title. Mathis, of course, retired one fight later at the hands of undefeated Ron Lyle.

The question is, since the HW division has went from weight limits of 176 and up, 196 and up, and now 211 and up, where is the breaking point from HW to SHW? Mathis, at 6'3" and weighing in from anywhere from 240 to 300 pounds was by far the first 'true' super heavyweight, imo, who had skill as well as his enormity.

Eric Esch, in recent years, has claimed a version of the 'SHW' title, though now he's retired. But Esch is worlds apart from Mathis, let alone Carnera. Nowadays we see guys being 6'5" and 250 pounds on a regular basis, hell one of the title holders today is 320 pounds and 7' tall.

Should the issue be pressed, or is there enough divisions in boxing?

I suppose it will go the way of what the governing bodies decide
upon.

Its safe to say that down the road CW will creep up to 220lbs, maybe
we will see a div between LHW and CW and then the HW's will be
220lbs and up.

In MMA for example they have a 265lbs limit and then above that is
suppose to be SHW..this is the UFC weight specs, but smaller shows
never seem to follow this, and I doubt the UFC is too hard on it either.

HomicideHenry wrote:In the 1930's the 'Drednaught' division was talked about

- And it should be talked about, and that's all.

S-HW - 225lbs+ cumbersome loafs

HW - 210 - 225 lbs.

CW - 199 - 209.5 lbs.

L-HW - 188 - 198.5 lbs. RJJ could have been a perfect L-HW

S-MW - 177 - 187.5 lbs. Calzaghe stll a S-MW without to much effort

MW - 166 - 176.5 lbs. Hopkins a 'true' MW

WW - 155 - 165.5 lbs. Hatton stll a welter without having to drop 30+ lbs.

J-WW - 144 - 154.5 lbs.

LW - 133 - 143.5 lbs.

FW - 122 - 132.5 lbs.

BW - 111 - 121.5lbs.

FlyW - up to 110lbs.

211? Cruiser goes up to 200.

Heavyweight ideally should be 185 and up, but I could live with the old 190 limit of cruiser.

A big guy trained down to 190 lbs can easily knock out a guy weighing 250. There are clear pros and cons to big size.

Frankly the whole 'super heavyweight era' the likes of Merchant were proclaiming 9 years ago never came to past.

McCline-relegated to gatekeeper
Whitaker-gone
Grant-KO'd into obsucrity
Golota-gone
Jefferson-journeyman

Valuev is a joke who will likely lose againt to the cruiser-sized Chagaev and become a mere footnote.

You have the Klitschko brothers, Vitali doesn't have much time left and Wlad could very well lose in June to a former cruiserweight. The other jiggle-weights just weigh too much. There are very few guys who after top-notch training and proper diet will be weighing above 225. So why even the discussion?

BTW: Mathis was far from the first 'super-heavyweight' to have skills and athleticism.

dempseyfire wrote:211? Cruiser goes up to 200.

Heavyweight ideally should be 185 and up, but I could live with the old 190 limit of cruiser.

A big guy trained down to 190 lbs can easily knock out a guy weighing 250. There are clear pros and cons to big size.

Frankly the whole 'super heavyweight era' the likes of Merchant were proclaiming 9 years ago never came to past.

McCline-relegated to gatekeeper
Whitaker-gone
Grant-KO'd into obsucrity
Golota-gone
Jefferson-journeyman

Valuev is a joke who will likely lose againt to the cruiser-sized Chagaev and become a mere footnote.

You have the Klitschko brothers, Vitali doesn't have much time left and Wlad could very well lose in June to a former cruiserweight. The other jiggle-weights just weigh too much. There are very few guys who after top-notch training and proper diet will be weighing above 225. So why even the discussion?

BTW: Mathis was far from the first 'super-heavyweight' to have skills and athleticism.

That's true. Really outside of the Klitschkos and Valuev most of the top HWs today are under 230 or at least should be when in optimal shape anyway. Hell, we just saw a fat Chambers at 220 slap around a fat (but much leaner than Chambers) Peter at over 250.

Diamond WEAPON wrote: Really outside of the Klitschkos and Valuev most of the top HWs today are under 230 or at least should be when in optimal shape anyway. Hell, we just saw a fat Chambers at 220 slap around a fat (but much leaner than Chambers) Peter at over 250.

- Appear to be on a roll today. You couldn't spot a single roll of fat on Peter. Chambers was a fat pear.

Chambers the fat boy, not Peter who won't be much under 260 again. Chambers didn't slap him around either. He won a majority decision that would've been Peter's had he gone after Chambers instead of boxing him that last round and knocked him down.

Also got Dimitrenko rising fast, and facts are the super heavies have dominated since Lewis and Bowe started contending and Big George in the middle of his comeback. Little lads are the exception, not the rule.

Any more boys out there telling porkies?

Super HW (over 6'3 and 225 lbs in shape) titlists in the past 10 years: Lennox Lewis, Shannon Briggs, Oleg Maskaev, Sergui Lyakovich, Vitali Klitschko, Wlad Klitschko, and Nicolay Valuev

5'10-6'3 guys: Evander Holyfield, Chris Byrd, John Ruiz, Lamon Brewster, James Toney, Hasim Rahman, Sam Peter, Sultan Ibragimov, Ruslan Chagaev, Corrie Sanders (6'4 but in peak shape would be about 215ish).

Hardly 'domination' by any sense of the word, especially when you consider that Valuev should have lost his title eliminator, his initial title shot, and his last title defense and Briggs/Lyakovich were one-shot wonders.

I still laugh at BRR's comment that you couldn't spot a single roll of fat on Peter . . .he looked like he was pregnant for crying out loud.

dempseyfire wrote: I still laugh at BRR's comment that you couldn't spot a single roll of fat on Peter . . .he looked like he was pregnant for crying out loud.

- Hyenas laugh incessantly.

Here he is in a recent fight at 250, Jameel at 266 and never accused of being fat.


Same fight with no love handles like Jamel has. Oscar had larger love handles at 145.


Same fight, after a KD in a relaxed state.


Vitali fight from the back. Completely tapered with HUGE back muscles jumping out in the middle of a punch, 254 lbs.


Same fight from the front after being tenderized. No luv handles, no jiggly breasts.


Undated training camp. YOU go tell him he's fat!


The Chambers, 223lbs fight, Sam at 265. Fat Eddie is the porker, not an oz of fat showing on Sam.


Nice shot of Eddie the Athlete.


Fat Eddie doing his Jiggles Arreola impression. No fat showing on Sam. He has a huge barrel chest with massive bone structure, a very big man filling out in muscle that he hasn't learn to use properly.

Instead of progressively inventing new or shifting dimensions for existing weightclasses, couldn't we just ban all the obvious fat-asses, as a measure of improving the sport's image?

If a guy can go 12 rounds and is fat looking so what ??
A fat guy can KO you just as easy as a buff looking one.
I dont know what peoples obsession is with looks and
image of a fighter. A fan watches athletes fight...an athlete
is defined by performance and not how well they model
the trunks they are in.

It was tongue-in-cheek, Rob

I would say this, though --- you can't watch these Heavies today & tell me their performance isn't compromised, can you? Fair enough if you look a little soft, that's your business --- we've seen fighters like that who possess tremendous endurance, like Joe Frazier, & more recently, Juan Diaz, but these Heavies are just plain old embarressing, both to themselves, & the sport. I wouldn't seriously suggest we ban them, but they simply aren't worth my time as a fight fan, IMO. I'll stick to the lower divisions, which is just what nearly every fight fan has been forced to do nowadays.

Robinson wrote:If a guy can go 12 rounds and is fat looking so what ??
A fat guy can KO you just as easy as a buff looking one.
I dont know what peoples obsession is with looks and
image of a fighter. A fan watches athletes fight...an athlete
is defined by performance and not how well they model
the trunks they are in.

Peter's entire career is the epitome of a guy's weight hampering his potential. He's so heavy he can't stand to fight off his toes for more than a few quick bursts, rendering him a big flat-footed target vs a tall guy like Klitschko or a slickster like Chambers. His stamina has sucked throughout his career, Vs Wlad it practically cost him the fight as after round 5 he was completly gassed and vs Chambers he fought at a snail's pace the entire way, letting Eddie sharp-shoot him to bits. BRR doesn't seem to understand looking 'solid' doesn't amount to not carrying around fat. Look at Peter just standing in the ring in the ring introductions in the McCline fight . . his middle bulges out embarassingly and he actually looks rather soft all around. Anyone can find pics of guys flexing for the camera and post them . . just go to frikkin' youtube and watch Peter videos.

I guess Shannon Briggs also 'filled out' later in his career looking like a GI Joe action figure . . .yes . . fighting trim!

Danny Williams looked just like Peter weighing 265 and then dropped down to 228, finally taking his regimena and diet seriously like a professional athlete should. Of course, like most modern heavyweights . . .he ballooned right back up and his career is essentially over.

There was a brief spell in the early 00s when a couple of lesser governing bodies applied a super cruiserweight division. The WBU was the most notable and I think the IBA and IBC also did something with it. Off the top of my head, boxers to fight for super cruiser titles included Rob Calloway, Dominic Negus, Tue Bjorn Thomsen, John McCain.

dempseyfire wrote:BRR doesn't seem to understand looking 'solid' doesn't amount to not carrying around fat. Look at Peter just standing in the ring in the ring introductions in the McCline fight . . his middle bulges out embarassingly and he actually looks rather soft all around.

- My pudgy little friend, BRR understands that he provided photographic proof of the fat boy winning a fight against the solid fighter.

Citing the weight of Danny Williams who has admitted to wearing weights in the pockets of his track suit for the Vitali weigh in at least one instance is emblematic of the battle of the bulge Mr. Fire struggles with.

How anyone can think weight is not a problem, indeed the problem, for Sam Peter is beyond me. But hell, at the pace he is fighting now he should be able to carry even more weight. If he came in at 350 maybe the fat, sorry "muscles", would insulate him against the punishment he is soaking up these days.

Robinson wrote:If a guy can go 12 rounds and is fat looking so what ??
A fat guy can KO you just as easy as a buff looking one.
I dont know what peoples obsession is with looks and
image of a fighter. A fan watches athletes fight...an athlete
is defined by performance and not how well they model
the trunks they are in.

Good point.

I don't know about everyone else but I watch boxing for the action, not to look at the fighters abs.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:BRR doesn't seem to understand looking 'solid' doesn't amount to not carrying around fat. Look at Peter just standing in the ring in the ring introductions in the McCline fight . . his middle bulges out embarassingly and he actually looks rather soft all around.

- My pudgy little friend, BRR understands that he provided photographic proof of the fat boy winning a fight against the solid fighter.

Citing the weight of Danny Williams who has admitted to wearing weights in the pockets of his track suit for the Vitali weigh in at least one instance is emblematic of the battle of the bulge Mr. Fire struggles with.

Oh yes, you nailed it. My critques of overweight sluggish heavyweights is just a defense mechanism for my own morbid obesity!

Grimm wrote:

Robinson wrote:If a guy can go 12 rounds and is fat looking so what ??
A fat guy can KO you just as easy as a buff looking one.
I dont know what peoples obsession is with looks and
image of a fighter. A fan watches athletes fight...an athlete
is defined by performance and not how well they model
the trunks they are in.

Good point.

I don't know about everyone else but I watch boxing for the action, not to look at the fighters abs.

Would be good if they threw more than 20 punches per round too, a lot easier to provide action without carrying an extra 50 lbs of fat around in the ring.

Yes..because every HW bout in recent years has had
minimal punch out puts. Oh how I long for the intense
punchstats of the 45 rounders....

Robinson, puuleeez. No-one's going back to 1910 . . .the top heavyweight fights of just 10 years ago were more active and exciting . . .what was the latest heavyweight bout that even had the action of a Tua-Maskaev? Those guys were not flailing around gasping for air like McCline-Peter or playing peek-a-boo like Wlad-Ibragimov.

dempseyfire wrote:211? Cruiser goes up to 200.

Heavyweight ideally should be 185 and up, but I could live with the old 190 limit of cruiser.

A big guy trained down to 190 lbs can easily knock out a guy weighing 250. There are clear pros and cons to big size.

Frankly the whole 'super heavyweight era' the likes of Merchant were proclaiming 9 years ago never came to past.

McCline-relegated to gatekeeper
Whitaker-gone
Grant-KO'd into obsucrity
Golota-gone
Jefferson-journeyman

Valuev is a joke who will likely lose againt to the cruiser-sized Chagaev and become a mere footnote.

You have the Klitschko brothers, Vitali doesn't have much time left and Wlad could very well lose in June to a former cruiserweight. The other jiggle-weights just weigh too much. There are very few guys who after top-notch training and proper diet will be weighing above 225. So why even the discussion?

BTW: Mathis was far from the first 'super-heavyweight' to have skills and athleticism.

Then who was in your opinion?

hhaehre wrote: Would be good if they threw more than 20 punches per round too, a lot easier to provide action without carrying an extra 50 lbs of fat around in the ring.

- Lewis took heavy criticism for his lack of firepower in the Mr. E. H. Field series.

Boxed very defensively, primarily the jab and locked up the willing Mr. Field in close who really was quite out of sorts he couldn't put anything together.

Jeffries and Johnson were hardly punchmeisters themselves, preferring a good grapple. We've seen Ali drop too many rounds to count by doing nothing more than gliding at the ring perimeter popping off a few jabs at the air, if that, when he wasn't retiring to the ropes to lock up incoming fighters.

Blame John Ruiz and the WBA for allowing so much holding as to send the fans away screaming in frustration. Nobody can fight him without enduring the clinches. Wlad is actually reasonably active as a puncher, he just prefers a reset from the outside rather than risk someone getting inside of him.

Most heavies used the clinch, Joe Louis being a notable exception. Tyson was criticized for his clinching weaknesses, but of course heavyweight critics clinch heavily to the myths of legends of yore where fighters were invincible and fought on top of Mt. Olympus.

The White Hope era produced a large crop of athletic 'super heavyweight' sized fighters, from your adonis glass jaws like Dan Daily to skilled boxer-punchers like McCarty and Fulton. You can see footage of Big Bill tate at 6-6 240 lbs gliding and jabbing around the ring. Godfrey was a very large and skilled big man. And despite his faults, Carnera was pretty athletic and mobile for a 270 lb man . . .clearly as athletic as your McClines,Whitakers, and Jeffersons.

And there is a big difference between tactical clinching (and there have been fighters who at times took this too far in certain fights, from Johnson to Terrell to Ali to Klitschko) and holding b/c you're too tired to throw punches. Most of the late round clinch-a-thons today are due to the latter. Briggs-Lyakovich was particularly funny in that both men were too fatigued by the mid-way point to even clinch.

dempseyfire wrote:The White Hope era produced a large crop of athletic 'super heavyweight' sized fighters, from your adonis glass jaws like Dan Daily to skilled boxer-punchers like McCarty and Fulton. You can see footage of Big Bill tate at 6-6 240 lbs gliding and jabbing around the ring. Godfrey was a very large and skilled big man. And despite his faults, Carnera was pretty athletic and mobile for a 270 lb man . . .clearly as athletic as your McClines,Whitakers, and Jeffersons.

Bill Tate is a good shout as an early "super heavy." Not sure about the White Hopes though, most, though over 6' 3", were well under 230lbs