BoxRec

Don't forget Roy...

Or micheal Spinks 8)

Eddie Cotton held the Michigan version of the light-heavyweight tltle and was a very skilled boxer.

You had to know I would find a way to get Eddie Cotton's namre in here.

WILLIE PASTRANO, WHO OUTBOXED HIS SHARE OF LIGHT HEAVIES AND A FEW OF THE BIG BOYS AND DID SO WITH A SMOOTH STYLE. HE WAS AN EXCELLENT BOXER AND A TRUE CHARACTER.

I think one reason light heavyweight champions were such good boxers is that quality light heavys spent so much time fighting heavyweights, giving away poundage ...and in so many cases a LOT of poundage made them develop skills that required good defense...to avoid those heavyweight bombs; good body movement toi keep them from getting into the brawling and physical strength the big guys would try to use against them; and their diminished (sometimes) punching power on those heavyweight chins and probably more significant on those heavyweight bodies.

On the other end of the scale, they also fought the best of the middleweights, who had to come up to get fights...so they had to deal with speed and over all skills there too.

One of the bigger weight differences I recall was watching Harold Johnson against the much heavier Nino Valdez...who was pretty good when he was motivated. Johnson won clearly, but, ironically, I was such an admirer of Johnson's skills that I was impressed that the big Valdez looked as good as he did!

An irony about Charles and Archie Moore. Although Charles won their third fight by a kayo (devastating one punch),(the first two by decision) it was actually his toughest of the three. Archie was slightly ahead and had Charles in real trouble....and..to paraphrase Moore..."I set a trap for him for the punch I thought would finish him...but then he suckered me into a trap of his own."
Charles described it in pretty much the way. Said he was really hurt but knowing Moore's moves so well gave him the opening he needed.

The division is in a slump now, but even in its best days it didn't always get the respect I think it deserved. When it was at its peak...in my opinion during the charles,bivins, moore, marshall and a little later harold johnson period, I thought these were the best group of fighters in the world...and so many of them at the same time.

I don't want to demean Spinks being the first light heavy champion to win the heavyweight title, but i think these two would have got there first if they had a shot at the lower one:

Gene Tunney
Ezzard Charles

...and , conversely, I think Harold Johnson, who did win the lighter title would have been a good bet to win the heavy title from Floyd Patterson.

Valdez was so big thatg when his back was to the camera and Johnson was facing him you couldn't even see Johnson.

that fight was a long time ago...but what I remember most about it was how Johnson...through skill alone....was able to move the much bigger man around the ring...seemed to have him exactly where he wanted him to be.

Also...most of the time it was Valdez who was backed against the ropes with Harold hitting him instead of what one would assume to be the other way around.

not surprised that giving away all that weight shortened Johnson's career. I think it had a negative effect on charles too.

Terap..do you know anything about the Pastrano/Johnson fight. didn't see it...and never understood why johnson didn't get a rematch.

For a great account on Nino Valdez, read Enrique's "The one and only Nino Valdez" on WAIL

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w10x-ee.htm

thanks broncano...this IS a great story. sad ending but that's true of too many boxers life stories. at least he seemed to enjoy the good years. for a great take on his fight with tommy hurricane jackson, read a.j.liebling's THE SWEET SCIENCE.

i regret I never asked ezzard charles about their fight...but it was tough to get ezz to talk about his fights ...win or lose...anyway. as the world's living number one ezzard charles admirer, I was hnappy to read valdez's quote in the enrique article...."ezzard charles was something special."

Of the fighters on that list, i'd say the finest boxer for pure delicate skill would be tommy loughran. The most complete technician would be harold johnson, the most ingeniusly unorthodox archie moore, the fastest hands and best chin billy conn, the sadly underappreciated delaney/slattery, and the man with, "all his shit together", ezzard charles. How does everbody think they would stack up against eachother.

The fact that so many great lightheavies were such fine technicians may explain the divisions lack of popularity outside the lovers of the arts and crafts of the game. The most exciting lightheavy was probably saad muhammad.

I really enjoyed watching Bob Foster fight. I remember many years ago as a kid, when he fought Vincente Rondon. There were a lot of people that thought Rondon would really challenge Foster, some even predicted he'd upset Bob. Bob Foster punished Rondon and if memory serves, he finished him in the 2nd. Foster didn't fare very well as a heavyweight, but as a light heavy he was a great champion, IMHO.

Andre Ward is very skillful

He got outboxed last night.

Maxie Rosenbloom must be worthy of a mention here

You don't win over 200 decisions without a fair old dollup of skill

Len Harvey another skillful, tactical boxer

And an opponent of his, John Henry Lewis

Tommy Gibbons, Georges Carpentier, Bernard Hopkins,

enrique wrote:WILLIE PASTRANO, WHO OUTBOXED HIS SHARE OF LIGHT HEAVIES AND A FEW OF THE BIG BOYS AND DID SO WITH A SMOOTH STYLE. HE WAS AN EXCELLENT BOXER AND A TRUE CHARACTER.

Willie Pastrano was not a real good boxer... You only had to watch his fights with Harold Johnson, Jose Torres, and Greg Peralta to realize that he was very punchable and beatable... He had a strong chin, fair athleticism, good political backing, and corrupt judges behind him -- otherwise he wouldn't have gotten close to a title shot. I almost threw up when he got the decision against Harold Johnson. Those judges were as corrupt as the ones last night. I was very pleased when the fight with Jose Torres was signed. I anticipated Torres beating the trash out of Willie and stopping him. It was very satisfying.

Light Heavyweights who could box in generational order were: Jimmy Slattery, Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Billy Conn, Ezzard Charles, Bob Foster, Michael Spinks, Roy Jones, Antonio Tarver, Bernard Hopkins, Sergei Kovalev, and Andre Ward.

Harold Johnson was about a textbook fighter as they come. He has to belong here. Tommy Gibbons never got a shot at the light heavyweight title but he was up there. The always overlooked Eddie Mustapha Muhammad is up there as well.

Don't think anyone has mentioned John Henry Lewis but he had really good boxing skills as well.
Archie Moore was known as a hard puncher but could box as well.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He got outboxed last night.

Not seen it Saad, read that Kov deserved the decision

dr_devious wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He got outboxed last night.

Not seen it Saad, read that Kov deserved the decision

He sure did, mainly off of his superior speed and jab

Ward is super sure but Spinks or Jones Jr.Harold Johnson
was great and Eddie Cotton.Billy Conn was ok.
Ezzard was not a champion but is certainly at the top quality and Tunney.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Harold Johnson was about a textbook fighter as they come. He has to belong here. Tommy Gibbons never got a shot at the light heavyweight title but he was up there. The always overlooked Eddie Mustapha Muhammad is up there as well.

Don't think anyone has mentioned John Henry Lewis but he had really good boxing skills as well.
Archie Moore was known as a hard puncher but could box as well.

Lewis couldn't box that well.. Moore??? ...I like Charles much better because he beat Moore 3 X without a loss or a draw... and also knocked Archie out with little effort.. When slowpoke swinger Nino Valdes beat Charles in 1953 that was really sad.. That wasn't close to the Charles who fought Moore in the 1940's.. When Harold Johnson beat Charles in his next fight you knew Ezz was gone.. Charles could still beat certain chinny fighters, but you would never see the brilliant skills Charles displayed in the 40's.. Moore had little trouble beating Valdes and Johnson.. Archie just kept rolling on forever, brilliant or not.

John Henry Lewis could not box that well? Wow.

Keko wrote:Ward is super sure but Spinks or Jones Jr.Harold Johnson
was great and Eddie Cotton.Billy Conn was ok.
Ezzard was not a champion but is certainly at the top quality and Tunney.

I'm not as big of a supporter of Conn as some people; but he was a lot better than just OK.