BoxRec

PLEASE VOTE AFTER READING THE BELOW COMMENTS.

Although I am a fan of Marciano I do think his undeafted record masks the fact that he fought mainly fighters past their best or journeymen.

Here a breakdown of Marciano’s opponents from number 25 onwards with their records going into fighting Marciano, (wins-losses-draws)

It makes interesting reading…

25) Carmine Vingo 16-1-0 (7 KO’s)
Gave Rocky a hell of a fight with Rocky coming close to being stopped himself. This fight ended Vingos career but was said to be Rockys toughest.

26) Roland LaStarza 36-0-0 (17 KO’s)
A highly controversial decision. The judges scored it a draw but most observers of the fight thought LaStarza clearly won. The ref gave Marciano the edge. This was why LaStarza later got a rematch due to the controversy.

27) Eldridge Eatman 14-18-3 (7 KO’s)
In previous 8 fights he had lost 7. Last fight of his career.

28) Gino Buonvino 17-5-1 (2 KO’s)
Gino was KO’ed in his previous fight.

29) Johnny Shkor 28-19-2 (19 KO’s)
Shkor was KO’ed in the first round in previous fight. He had one more fight after fighting Marciano then retired.

30) Ted Lowry 59-54-9 (37 KO’s)
Lost previous 3 fights and after fighting Rocky he lost the next 5.

31) Bill Wilson 15-7-1 (10 KO’s)
Lost previous fight and after fighting Rocky lost the next 3.

32) Keene Simmons 7-6-1 (3 KO’s)
Lost 5 of his previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano had 11 straight defeats then retired.

33) Harold Mitchell 0-10-2 (that’s right 12 fights 0 wins)
After fighting Marciano had one more fight (which he lost) and retired.

34) Art Henri 13-15-1 (8 KO’s)
Lost 5 of previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano lost his next 5 fights.

35) Willis Applegate 5-13-2 (1 KO)
Lost 5 previous fights. Had one more fight after fighting Marciano then retired. Took Marciano the distance.

36) Rex Layne 34-1-2 (24 KO’s)
A good fighter and many thought he would beat Marciano. In his very next fight he was stopped again.

37) Freddie Beshore 30-11-2 (10 KO’s)
In his previous 9 fights he had lost 7.


38) Joe Louis 68-2-0 (54 KO’s)
Way past his best. 37 years old, balding, career heaviest, podgy. Last fight of career.

39) Lee Savold 74-33-2 (53 KO’s)
KO’ed in previous fight. Retired after fighting Marciano. Way past his best.

40) Gino Buonvino 18-8-2 (2 KO’s)
KO’ed in the 1st round in previous fight. After fighting Marciano he retired.

41) Bernie Reynolds 51-10-2 (30 KO’s)
Lost 4 of previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano he had 3 KO defeats then retired.

42) Harry Matthews 79-3-6 (57 KO’s)
A good fighter but at light-heavyweight. Weighed 12 stone 8lbs (179 lbs) when he fought Marciano. This was a title eliminator fight.

I didn’t bother with fighters 1-24 as they were either making their debuts or had just as un-impressive records as those above.

Then we go onto Rockys title fights. In the 3 years he held the title Rocky only managed 6 defences, of which 3 were rematches.

He fought Walcott, who until recent times was the oldest man to hold the title. He was 38 and 39 years old when he fought Marciano. He dropped Marciano in the first fight and was ahead on all scorecards until he was KO’ed. Walcott was past his best when he fought Marciano and the two fights with Rocky were the last he had before retiring.

He had a rematch with LaStarza who was now 52-3-0 (24 KO’s).

He fought Ezzard Charles, who again was past his best. He had lost 2 of his previous 4 fights before fighting Marciano. Gave Marciano two very hard fights and came close to stopping Marciano on cuts. If any other fighter was a badly cut as Rocky was the fight would have been stopped.

He fought Don Cockell who fought mainly at light-heavyweight. Marciano very lucky not to have been disqualified after butting, elbowing, punching after the bell, hitting Cockell on the canvas, and kidney punching. After fighting Marciano Cockell had two KO defeats (3rd and 2nd rounds) then retired.

A finally Archie Moore who at 41 was hardly a spring chicken and fought best at light-heavyweight. Yet he dropped Marciano, who looked completely out on his feet. The ref’s mistake (?) at counting while Marciano was on his feet gave Marciano vital seconds to clear his head. Moore, one of the best finishers ever, felt he was clearly robbed of his chance to end the fight.

So there you go, put like this Marcianos record suddenly seems not as great as it looks on paper. Yes he was a great puncher and exciting to watch but in my opinion due to the class of many of his opponents, over-rated.

Not talking about you controversial, but some people think every heavyweight champion is overrated.

NO he was NOT overrated, at least not by people in the know of boxing.

No one in the know claimed he was a world-class boxer. He wasn't a world-class boxer. But no one SAID he was a world-class boxer.

What he had was a huge right hand, great fitness, a swarming style and a good chin.

Normally when people say "he's showing to be very game" or "he's got an amazing heart" it's irrelevent(do they expect him to quit?).

But with Marciano it's different, he had one of the most amazing determination I've ever seen. Many other boxers would quit after 10 rounds with Walcott like he did.

In conclusion he was not overrated. This is my opinion, i'm not disrespecting anyone.

Contraversial wrote: Although I am a fan of Marciano I do think.....

I hate when people start sentences like this. Not offending you Contro. or anything.

If people put him any higher than 10 in there top ten then in my view they are overating him, his record is good, but when examined not all that good. He was small and if his opponents kept out of trouble then he could be outboxed.

Liston louis Foreman Frazier and tyson would all beat him by overpowering him, IMO

samuel wrote:

Controversial wrote:
A finally Archie Moore who at 41 was hardly a spring chicken and fought best at light-heavyweight. Yet he dropped Marciano, who looked completely out on his feet. The ref’s mistake (?) at counting while Marciano was on his feet gave Marciano vital seconds to clear his head. Moore, one of the best finishers ever, felt he was clearly robbed of his chance to end the fight.

Horseshit. This is Archie's version of what happened. Watch the fight, it did not happen this way.

No actually it's Everett Skehans version, from the book he wrote with Marcianos familys help, called, funnily enough ROCKY MARCIANO.

But yes your right its Archies version as well as many others also.

samuel wrote:

Controversial wrote:
42) Harry Matthews 79-3-6 (57 KO’s)
A good fighter but at light-heavyweight. Weighed 12 stone 8lbs (179 lbs) when he fought Marciano. This was a title eliminator fight.

And what did Rocky weigh? 185 lbs? Wow, a 6 lb difference, what a controversey.

It's funny that the bit of my post you could try to pick fault with was this? As you seem to be a Marciano fan I thought you would have more of an decent argument than this. Anyone if you read it properly I said Matthews was a good fighter. Im not denying it. But he weighed 12 and a half stone. And Marciano fought him in a world title eliminator.

samuel wrote:

Controversial wrote:

samuel wrote:The claim that Marciano was out on his feet is lunatic. It was maybe 2 or 3 seconds. The proof is in the fight tape. Watch it again.

You have just contradicted yourself. You say he wasn't out on his feet then say it was for 2-3 seconds? The fact is those few seconds the ref wasted, (where you say Marciano was out for 2-3 seconds) can make a hell of a difference to a fighter like Moore when he is going in for the finish.

samuel wrote:

Controversial wrote:

samuel wrote:And what did Rocky weigh? 185 lbs? Wow, a 6 lb difference, what a controversey.

It's funny that the bit of my post you could try to pick fault with was this? As you seem to be a Marciano fan I thought you would have more of an decent argument than this. Anyone if you read it properly I said Matthews was a good fighter. Im not denying it. But he weighed 12 and a half stone. And Marciano fought him in a world title eliminator.

You made a point of mentioning his weight, as if it were an issue that he only weighed 179. Maybe you should have listed the weights of all the other opponents you mentioned. Of course you didn't do that though, since it wouldn't suit your argument.

I didn't mention his weight to try and mean anything. He was a good fighter but at light-heavyweight.

If I was mentioning weights to try and prove a point I was have said Marcianos 10th opponent was Bob Jefferson 0-2-0 who weighed 12 stone 2lbs (172lbs).

In fact about twenty of Marcianos opponents were smaller than him.

I only print the facts my friend....

samuel wrote:

Controversial wrote:

samuel wrote:

I didn't say the ref gave him an 8 count, I said he carried on the count when Marciano stood up. He shouldn't have and those few seconds were seconds that Moore would have been attacking Rocky. And another point is I never said Rocky was out on his feet, I said he looked out on his feet, which he did in my opinion.

If I was mentioning weights to try and prove a point I was have said Marcianos 10th opponent was Bob Jefferson 0-2-0 who weighed 12 stone 2lbs (172lbs).

In fact about twenty of Marcianos opponents were smaller than him.

I only print the facts my friend....

[/quote]You are lying when you say you did not mean anything by mentioning weight. Otherwise you would not have mentioned it.[/quote]

Like I said earlier many in the list of fighters I listed were lighter than Marciano. The only thing I was trying to show was that Matthews fought mainly, and better, at light-heavyweight. And that Marciano was fighting him in a heavyweight title eliminator.

I tend to agree that everyone is overrated to a point, and it's all about personal preference.

Who has he ducked? Who should he've fought which he didn't?

Anyway, i'm fed up with rating


I'm waiting for topics like:

"Rate Robsteth's mother"
"Is having sex with animals underrated"(sorry)

Dutch Windmill wrote:Who has he ducked? Who should he've fought which he didn't?

Anyway, i'm fed up with rating


I'm waiting for topics like:

"Rate Robsteth's mother"
"Is having sex with animals underrated"(sorry)

Rocky may have ducked fighters.

Rocky may have hit under the belt.

Rocky may have butted, elbowed, punched in the kidneys and back of the neck, hit after the bell and on the breaks and probably used the thumb and laces.

But everyone knows that and takes that into account. Therefore he was not overrated.

Just because he ducked a few and didn't have as much regard for the rules as others doesn't mean he wasn't a good fighter. He was just an overly professional fighter.

Something I did forget to mention was that included in the first 12 opponents Marciano fought, were 3 debutants and 6 fighters who had never won any of the fights that they had.

Now I know boxers start off easy but coupled with the fact that opponents from 25-42 included other fighters with very poor records or fighters near the end of the career, this doesn't bode well for those who try to argue that Marciano fought many good boxers.

Good post Controversial. I knew Marciano's record wasn't build on much quality, but I didn't know it was that bad. Still many boxingfans put him in their all-time top 5, some of them even on top. Based on that, yes he is overrated big time. In fact, by today's standards, fighting the poor quality of opposition he did, he would hardly be taken serious at all.

Not really, that would be like if someone came along today, and Knocked Out Holyfield, Tyson, and Lewis... all in dramatic fashion. How would you rate such a person?

so much wordage over a simple question. the answer is yes.


But I am nothing if not fair. The ref didn't help him in that knockdown by Moore. Saw the fight.. have seen it many times on tape.

i think Moore really got discouraged then. Hit the Brockton Headbutter with his best shot..landed perfectly....and marciano got up and wan't in trouble. moore fought bravely on...but he must have known he had his best chance and it didn't do it for him.

terap wrote:"Although I am a fan of Marciano "

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

Just because I think Marciano was over-rated doesn't mean I'm not a fan. He was great to watch, had a KO punch and was as tough as they come. I'm just not so blind that I can see past the 49-0, unlike the many other Marciano fans who thought he was indestructable. Maybe he was against no-hopers, second rate journeymen and fighters way past there best. I also a fan of Tyson but that doesn't mean I have to think he is the greatest fighter ever. I could list loads of fighters I like but again that doesn't mean I think they are the greatest...

My views on Marciano are, oh whats the phrase....um.... oh yes thats it, it's called 'Having An Opinion'............

samuel wrote:

Controversial wrote:



Then we go onto Rockys title fights. In the 3 years he held the title Rocky only managed 6 defences, of which 3 were rematches.



A finally Archie Moore who at 41 was hardly a spring chicken and fought best at light-heavyweight. Yet he dropped Marciano, who looked completely out on his feet. The ref?s mistake (?) at counting while Marciano was on his feet gave Marciano vital seconds to clear his head. Moore, one of the best finishers ever, felt he was clearly robbed of his chance to end the fight.

Horseshit. This is Archie's version of what happened. Watch the fight, it did not happen this way.

Exactly. Moore was spouting BS. Anyone who's seen it can tell. Rocky 'clearly out on his feet and getting an extended break'? No way. The break was no longer than an ordinary one, Marciano was up in two seconds from the knockdown, and he was clearly not even wobbled, let alone out on his feet.
Controversial, I'm wondering, do you ever make posts that aren't trashing Marciano?
First off, Charles had lost two of his last 4. You push it to the smallest number to make it look worse. You could also say 'he had won 8 out of his last 10.' But you don't do that, do you? Why not? Because, oh yeah, it doesn't suit your argument. Your listing of Marciano's opponents is extremely biased and misleading.
Many, MANY of your comments are BADLY skewed away from Marciano. You're obviously trying to reflect on him in the most negative possible light, much like Terap does with Ali. You just look for any possible negative thing to state about Marciano's opponents. For instance, you mention that Walcott was old and in his last fights. I could also say:
43) Walcott was a great fighter with a powerful left hook, was fast and skilled with a hard jab, and aged very gracefully. He had beaten Ezzard Charles twice in his last two fights, a magnificent performance to win the title with a great left hook.
44) Same as 43
45) LaStarza was 54-3, one of his losses having come to Marciano and the other two both having been avenged. Roland was an excellent skilled boxer. Marciano was the first man ever to knock LaStarza down.
Etc.
You ARE stating 'facts', but you're only stating the most negative side. You're not giving an objective view AT ALL.

SugarRoyRobinson wrote:

Dutch Windmill wrote:Who has he ducked? Who should he've fought which he didn't?

Anyway, i'm fed up with rating


I'm waiting for topics like:

"Rate Robsteth's mother"
"Is having sex with animals underrated"(sorry)

Rocky may have ducked fighters.

Rocky may have hit under the belt.

Rocky may have butted, elbowed, punched in the kidneys and back of the neck, hit after the bell and on the breaks and probably used the thumb and laces.

But everyone knows that and takes that into account. Therefore he was not overrated.

Just because he ducked a few and didn't have as much regard for the rules as others doesn't mean he wasn't a good fighter. He was just an overly professional fighter.

He never ducked anyone. Patterson was young and not a serious contender yet. Marciano never ducked Nino Valdez like some Cuban writers have tried to claim. He was scheduled to face Valdez, but Archie Moore moved up and beat the crap out of him.
Marciano faced all the best competition of his time.

No!

Rocky Marciano isn't overrated.
Undefeated ,undisputed heavyweight champion can't be overrated.
All other maybe, but not Marciano.He is the only.

He was shy and no actor and no scandale person.

Marciano is natural strong man with lion heart.
Never lost and never back.

He is the greatest.
NoI did a mistake.He isn't the greatest.

"The greatest" is Ali.
Realy the greatest champion is Louis.
Rocky Marciano is God of boxing.

Aim for all.

Controversial wrote:

samuel wrote:

Controversial wrote: It's funny that the bit of my post you could try to pick fault with was this? As you seem to be a Marciano fan I thought you would have more of an decent argument than this. Anyone if you read it properly I said Matthews was a good fighter. Im not denying it. But he weighed 12 and a half stone. And Marciano fought him in a world title eliminator.

You made a point of mentioning his weight, as if it were an issue that he only weighed 179. Maybe you should have listed the weights of all the other opponents you mentioned. Of course you didn't do that though, since it wouldn't suit your argument.

I didn't mention his weight to try and mean anything. He was a good fighter but at light-heavyweight.

If I was mentioning weights to try and prove a point I was have said Marcianos 10th opponent was Bob Jefferson 0-2-0 who weighed 12 stone 2lbs (172lbs).

In fact about twenty of Marcianos opponents were smaller than him.

I only print the facts my friend....

You only print facts, but they're facts skewed badly away from Marciano, as I've already pointed out.
Like I said, you're just manipulating the numbers to make it look bad. I could do the same thing to make it look good-
43-44) Jersey Joe Walcott, had won both of his last two fights, one of them a great KO win over Ezzard Charles.
45) Roland LaStarza, had won 8 of his last 10 fights, and avenged the two losses.
46-47) Ezzard Charles, had won 11 of his last 13, and went on to win 4 of his next 5.
48) Don Cockel, had won 4 of his last 5.
49. Archie Moore, had won all of his last 10 fights and futher, as well as winning his next 10 fights and further.
I only stated facts there, but it sounds a lot better for Rocky than yours does, doesn't it? You know why? Because I manipulated the numbers the OTHER way. You can make his competition seem good or bad or average or whatever you want, if you manipulate the numbers just right, or only state the fact that favors your side of the argument, like you've been doing, Contro.

I think Controversial should subject Deontay Wilder's record to the same mature, incredibly balanced scrutiny he did the Rock's here in his learned 2003 thread.

If Marciano's pre title opponents are bad, god only knows what to make of Deontay's. And if Walcott, Charles and Moore come with asterixes, let's hear you sell Stiverne and Ortiz and co! I guess they do score highly on the all-important scales question (never mind that that seems to be down to poor diet and sloth--being fat gives you the advantage in an athletic contest--fact!).

Over to you, Controversial!

Tuan_Jim wrote: ↑31 Oct 2018, 09:46 I think Controversial should subject Deontay Wilder's record to the same mature, incredibly balanced scrutiny he did the Rock's here in his learned 2003 thread.

If Marciano's pre title opponents are bad, god only knows what to make of Deontay's. And if Walcott, Charles and Moore come with asterixes, let's hear you sell Stiverne and Ortiz and co! I guess they do score highly on the all-important scales question (never mind that that seems to be down to poor diet and sloth--being fat gives you the advantage in an athletic contest--fact!).

Over to you, Controversial!

Again when did I ever say Wilder fought great opposition? Marciano fought a lot of poor fighters, so has Wilder, so do lots of HWs. To be fair I wrote this Marciano post with my tongue in cheek 15 years ago to bring about debate.. it doesn’t get away from the fact that most of his opponents were pretty poor.

Controversial wrote: ↑08 Jul 2003, 14:37 PLEASE VOTE AFTER READING THE BELOW COMMENTS.

Although I am a fan of Marciano I do think his undeafted record masks the fact that he fought mainly fighters past their best or journeymen.

Here a breakdown of Marciano’s opponents from number 25 onwards with their records going into fighting Marciano, (wins-losses-draws)

It makes interesting reading…

25) Carmine Vingo 16-1-0 (7 KO’s)
Gave Rocky a hell of a fight with Rocky coming close to being stopped himself. This fight ended Vingos career but was said to be Rockys toughest.

26) Roland LaStarza 36-0-0 (17 KO’s)
A highly controversial decision. The judges scored it a draw but most observers of the fight thought LaStarza clearly won. The ref gave Marciano the edge. This was why LaStarza later got a rematch due to the controversy.

27) Eldridge Eatman 14-18-3 (7 KO’s)
In previous 8 fights he had lost 7. Last fight of his career.

28) Gino Buonvino 17-5-1 (2 KO’s)
Gino was KO’ed in his previous fight.

29) Johnny Shkor 28-19-2 (19 KO’s)
Shkor was KO’ed in the first round in previous fight. He had one more fight after fighting Marciano then retired.

30) Ted Lowry 59-54-9 (37 KO’s)
Lost previous 3 fights and after fighting Rocky he lost the next 5.

31) Bill Wilson 15-7-1 (10 KO’s)
Lost previous fight and after fighting Rocky lost the next 3.

32) Keene Simmons 7-6-1 (3 KO’s)
Lost 5 of his previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano had 11 straight defeats then retired.

33) Harold Mitchell 0-10-2 (that’s right 12 fights 0 wins)
After fighting Marciano had one more fight (which he lost) and retired.

34) Art Henri 13-15-1 (8 KO’s)
Lost 5 of previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano lost his next 5 fights.

35) Willis Applegate 5-13-2 (1 KO)
Lost 5 previous fights. Had one more fight after fighting Marciano then retired. Took Marciano the distance.

36) Rex Layne 34-1-2 (24 KO’s)
A good fighter and many thought he would beat Marciano. In his very next fight he was stopped again.

37) Freddie Beshore 30-11-2 (10 KO’s)
In his previous 9 fights he had lost 7.


38) Joe Louis 68-2-0 (54 KO’s)
Way past his best. 37 years old, balding, career heaviest, podgy. Last fight of career.

39) Lee Savold 74-33-2 (53 KO’s)
KO’ed in previous fight. Retired after fighting Marciano. Way past his best.

40) Gino Buonvino 18-8-2 (2 KO’s)
KO’ed in the 1st round in previous fight. After fighting Marciano he retired.

41) Bernie Reynolds 51-10-2 (30 KO’s)
Lost 4 of previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano he had 3 KO defeats then retired.

42) Harry Matthews 79-3-6 (57 KO’s)
A good fighter but at light-heavyweight. Weighed 12 stone 8lbs (179 lbs) when he fought Marciano. This was a title eliminator fight.

I didn’t bother with fighters 1-24 as they were either making their debuts or had just as un-impressive records as those above.

Then we go onto Rockys title fights. In the 3 years he held the title Rocky only managed 6 defences, of which 3 were rematches.

He fought Walcott, who until recent times was the oldest man to hold the title. He was 38 and 39 years old when he fought Marciano. He dropped Marciano in the first fight and was ahead on all scorecards until he was KO’ed. Walcott was past his best when he fought Marciano and the two fights with Rocky were the last he had before retiring.

He had a rematch with LaStarza who was now 52-3-0 (24 KO’s).

He fought Ezzard Charles, who again was past his best. He had lost 2 of his previous 4 fights before fighting Marciano. Gave Marciano two very hard fights and came close to stopping Marciano on cuts. If any other fighter was a badly cut as Rocky was the fight would have been stopped.

He fought Don Cockell who fought mainly at light-heavyweight. Marciano very lucky not to have been disqualified after butting, elbowing, punching after the bell, hitting Cockell on the canvas, and kidney punching. After fighting Marciano Cockell had two KO defeats (3rd and 2nd rounds) then retired.

A finally Archie Moore who at 41 was hardly a spring chicken and fought best at light-heavyweight. Yet he dropped Marciano, who looked completely out on his feet. The ref’s mistake (?) at counting while Marciano was on his feet gave Marciano vital seconds to clear his head. Moore, one of the best finishers ever, felt he was clearly robbed of his chance to end the fight.

So there you go, put like this Marcianos record suddenly seems not as great as it looks on paper. Yes he was a great puncher and exciting to watch but in my opinion due to the class of many of his opponents, over-rated.

Do you really think this is a fair "breakdown". you list the opponent and then say something bad about the guy. You could do that with anyone's opponents.
Or you could go the opposite way and say something good about all of his opponents.

Some people overrate him. Some people underrate him.