BoxRec

Where do these three rank in terms of achievement & H2H in Heavyweight history?

In the top 5

On many lists(including mine) all in the top three!

For me:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes

Based on accomplishments they are my top 3 of all-time. If they faced each other in three fight trilogies, I see them going as such:

Ali vs Holmes - Holmes UD, Ali UD, Draw.
Louis vs Holmes - Holmes UD, Louis TKO4, Louis KO8.
Ali vs Louis - Ali TKO14, Louis TKO8, Ali UD.

Head-to-head, I really do feel strongly anyone within this group can beat anyone. In a trilogy, I don't see anyone coming away without at least one, 'L' in their loss column. If pushed, I'd say Louis may do best overall, followed by Ali, with Holmes having the least success.

On accomplishment, I rank Ali at #1, Louis #2, Holmes #3 (I hope you're reading, Alp ;) ).

jezzamundo wrote:For me:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes

Based on accomplishments they are my top 3 of all-time.

- Based on accomplishments, Holmes lost to every prime great he faced and additionally failed the LH great moving up a division challenge.

He never unified and was knocked dead out crucified cold by Tyson early on where as the others sustained substantial beatdowns to take out.

For me Louis is number one. Ali is top 5, possibly number two and Holmes just outside top 5. I just don't think the Holmes resume quite stacks up to the other two, although a prime Holmes would be a challenge to anyone.

Norton doesn't seem any more impressive than the guys Holmes beat yet Ali managed to lose to him.

Ali
Louis
Holmes

Cojimar 1945 wrote:Norton doesn't seem any more impressive than the guys Holmes beat yet Ali managed to lose to him.

Holmes also went life and death with a past-prime Norton. What's your point?

- Based on accomplishments, Holmes lost to every prime great he faced and additionally failed the LH great moving up a division challenge.

He never unified and was knocked dead out crucified cold by Tyson early on where as the others sustained substantial beatdowns to take out.

Went one fight from equally Marciano's undefeated record.
Second most title defenses ever.

I'll agree that his quality of opposition was not the greatest, but that was largely due to the era he happened to be boxing in. I think I'll forgive him for being knocked out by a prime Tyson, seeing as he was rusty and clearly past his own prime. Same goes for Holyfield (who he still gave a competitive fight).

I think Holmes is clearly below Ali and Louis, but I put him just ahead of the likes of Johnson, Foreman and Marciano.

My top 4 always has Johnson, Louis, Ali and Holmes in some order...

Louis and Ali are always in my top 2. Head to head I feel that they would split a two fight series giving the Brown Bomber an edge in the 3rd fight.

Holmes is around #5 or #6. I'd favor both Ali and Louis over Holmes but a peak Ali vs Holmes fight would be very close due to the clash of styles.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Head-to-head, I really do feel strongly anyone within this group can beat anyone. In a trilogy, I don't see anyone coming away without at least one, 'L' in their loss column. If pushed, I'd say Louis may do best overall, followed by Ali, with Holmes having the least success.

On accomplishment, I rank Ali at #1, Louis #2, Holmes #3 (I hope you're reading, Alp ;) ).

Yes I am reading, and I'm glad that you have Ali #1 on accomplishment. Maybe there is hope for you yet.

For me Ali is #1, Louis is #2; after that it's very difficult to say.
I guess I would go with Foreman. (I'm not putting much weight in his comeback.) The only thing that really hurts his case is the loss to Jimmy Young. He looked bad in that fight.
However, I don't have any problem with other choices for #3 that were mentioned like Holmes. You could also make a good arguement for Johnson or Frazier. And Dempsey, Marciano,Holyfield, and Lewis can't be too far behind either those guys either.
It doesn't surprise me that some people would have Holmes #3 and some as low as #10.

imo..

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes

Ambling Alp wrote:
For me Ali is #1, Louis is #2; after that it's very difficult to say.
I guess I would go with Foreman. (I'm not putting much weight in his comeback.) The only thing that really hurts his case is the loss to Jimmy Young. He looked bad in that fight.

- He knocked Young down and chased him around the ring trying to make a fight of it.

Looked better than did your #1 who could've been DQed for his non-effort through 8 rds and was outclowned/outfought by Young fairly easily down the stretch. Decision also booed by the crowd at the height of Ali's popularity.

Favourite treatment for favoured fighters seems to be the rule on this board and any Don King promotion.

louis,ali and then holmes if they hadn`t taken away ali`s best year`s he would be number 1 no doubt.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:
For me Ali is #1, Louis is #2; after that it's very difficult to say.
I guess I would go with Foreman. (I'm not putting much weight in his comeback.) The only thing that really hurts his case is the loss to Jimmy Young. He looked bad in that fight.

- He knocked Young down and chased him around the ring trying to make a fight of it.

In what round did the knockdown occur? I somehow only remember Foreman being knocked down.

wouter wrote: In what round did the knockdown occur? I somehow only remember Foreman being knocked down.

- What, you think I have a photographic memory? Boxrec used to list it, but it was around 6-7 mark when George popped Jimmy down.

Couldn't catch up to finish before the end of the round and the effort took some steam of him down the stretch though he never stopped trying.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: - What, you think I have a photographic memory? Boxrec used to list it, but it was around 6-7 mark when George popped Jimmy down.

No I think you have a healthy imagination. Boxrec never listed it as Young never was knocked down.

Young was wobbled pretty heavily in round seven, & Foreman pursued, but no knockdown followed.

wouter wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:
For me Ali is #1, Louis is #2; after that it's very difficult to say.
I guess I would go with Foreman. (I'm not putting much weight in his comeback.) The only thing that really hurts his case is the loss to Jimmy Young. He looked bad in that fight.

- He knocked Young down and chased him around the ring trying to make a fight of it.

In what round did the knockdown occur? I somehow only remember Foreman being knocked down.

That tells you all you need to know about BRR and his knowledge of boxing.

wouter wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: - What, you think I have a photographic memory? Boxrec used to list it, but it was around 6-7 mark when George popped Jimmy down.

No I think you have a healthy imagination. Boxrec never listed it as Young never was knocked down.

- Not my imagination at all. Was quite a hot topic back when I was on the old AOL board, and seeing as boxrec must make dozens if not a hundred or more edits everyday, it's no different from youtube removing a video. Doesn't mean it never existed. I never discount my memory under such conditions but clearly today no KD is listed.

I never saw the bout until a year ago when I scored it and haven't seen it since until I reviews 6-7 and 15th rds for this commentary. Could be the aol conversation was influenced by a perception of a KD in the 7th when it looks like Young's gloves touch the canvas early on.

Young's KD of George in the 12th was not a clean one seeing as he was in a fatigued state lurching about the ring chasing Young and Young may have combined a pull with a punch to put him off balance enough for Georges right hand to touch. The ref is startled when George is right on top of him and the retreating Young and starts a count. There was a question of a KD by the ABC crew which they claim was verified by a judge as a KD.

Was it, or wasn't it? Such is the shady nature of boxing.

This was a typical King promoted fight and the nature of scoring was off the mark even if Young did win, especially in view of the scoring of the Ali fight preceding it. George was being frozen out of the rematch for whatever reasons since Young was at his best and could make any contender look clumsy and spoil a title shot.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: - Not my imagination at all. Was quite a hot topic back when I was on the old AOL board, and seeing as boxrec must make dozens if not a hundred or more edits everyday, it's no different from youtube removing a video. Doesn't mean it never existed. I never discount my memory under such conditions but clearly today no KD is listed.

As an editor it's possible to see bout as it was first entered and the edits that have been made since - it has never said Young was knocked down.