BoxRec

if joe frazier wasn't pulled out before the last round in his 1975 brutal fight with ali and he went on to win on points or by KO how do you think this would've affected ali and fraziers careers and rankings in heavyweight history

It would've hurt Ali, but not spectacularly so, IMO. The legacy was more or less built with the win over Foreman, & people would just state how Ali & Frazier were each old, both worn down, etc.

I do think Frazier's rep undergoes a more dramatic change. Makes him only the third two-time champ in HW history at that time, & on the back of a big upset, no less. Would've made for a really interesting dynamic as to who Frazier defended against. Interesting, too, to see where Ali's career went.

jameshoward wrote:if joe frazier wasn't pulled out before the last round in his 1975 brutal fight with ali and he went on to win on points or by KO how do you think this would've affected ali and fraziers careers and rankings in heavyweight history

That's a great question.

All in all, I don't think it would altered their standings too much, because people would have said that both men were past their bests & I think most people would always take into account Frazier's mauling at the hands of Foreman & Ali's mastering of the very same Foreman: this is taking into account that their careers had panned out in the same fashion post Manila.

What if Rodan would have flown out of the sky and whisked Carlos Padilla off the face of the planet Just as Joe Frazier was being wobbled in the second round of their second fight? Would there ever have been a "thrilla in Manilla"? No one can say for sure.

BoxBuzz wrote:What if Rodan would have flown out of the sky and whisked Carlos Padilla off the face of the planet Just as Joe Frazier was being wobbled in the second round of their second fight? Would there ever have been a "thrilla in Manilla"? No one can say for sure.

Ali was NOT going to knock out Joe Frazier in the 2nd round, 2nd fight.

Tony Perez should have NEVER allowed Ali to get away with the pulling down of Joe's head in that fight. Ali did it all night.

To answer the question, Frazier hopefully would have retired after Manila as champ.

p.s. Been away for quite a while, guys, is Granberry still around?

Hope so.

yancey wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:What if Rodan would have flown out of the sky and whisked Carlos Padilla off the face of the planet Just as Joe Frazier was being wobbled in the second round of their second fight? Would there ever have been a "thrilla in Manilla"? No one can say for sure.

Ali was NOT going to knock out Joe Frazier in the 2nd round, 2nd fight.

Tony Perez should have NEVER allowed Ali to get away with the pulling down of Joe's head in that fight. Ali did it all night.

To answer the question, Frazier hopefully would have retired after Manila as champ.

p.s. Been away for quite a while, guys, is Granberry still around?

Hope so.

Every looked close at that round? Was Joe just doin' the Frazier Shuffle? Looked a wee bit like like the ol' Frazier "side steppin'" that we saw in the Foreman Fight to me. I think Carlos thought so as well and ordered up a short intermission just to be safe.

Collins so annoyed granny that he changed his name.

BoxBuzz wrote:

yancey wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:What if Rodan would have flown out of the sky and whisked Carlos Padilla off the face of the planet Just as Joe Frazier was being wobbled in the second round of their second fight? Would there ever have been a "thrilla in Manilla"? No one can say for sure.

Ali was NOT going to knock out Joe Frazier in the 2nd round, 2nd fight.

Tony Perez should have NEVER allowed Ali to get away with the pulling down of Joe's head in that fight. Ali did it all night.

To answer the question, Frazier hopefully would have retired after Manila as champ.

p.s. Been away for quite a while, guys, is Granberry still around?

Hope so.

Every looked close at that round? Was Joe just doin' the Frazier Shuffle? Looked a wee bit like like the ol' Frazier "side steppin'" that we saw in the Foreman Fight to me. I think Carlos thought so as well and ordered up a short intermission just to be safe.

Collins so annoyed granny that he changed his name.

Uh, Perez was the referee in the 2nd Frazier-Ali fight, not Padilla. I tried to be nice and gave you a hint of that in my previous post.

Yes, I've seen the 2nd round, 2nd fight, a few times. Frazier was wobbled a little, just like he was in the first round of his fight with Ramos.

Don't translate being wobbled slightly as being on the verge of being knocked out. It wasn't even close.

What is Granberry's new handle?

yancey...it's one of those things about age, I know what I know if you know what I mean. Yep Perez it is....and yet my fingers type Padilla....it's a curse. But that moment is just not clean....it's interrupted and so we all imagine what path it might have taken. It's just as maddening as the holding by Ali in the following fight.

Now as for gran....I'm not really sure he still roams around here but there certainly are a few that have been inspired by his wisdom that carry his sword into combat here. JohnGalt for one, and a kindred spirit at times BRR....(too long to remember so I go with initial twitter).

Buzzy,

Understand that I have not been inspired by anyone on a message board or by anyone who is regarded as an "expert" on boxing by you. This would include, but not be limited to, Sugar, Cosell, Merchant, Hauser, etc. My opinions are my own and they are not shaped by your "experts", or the popular view.

You are correct if you believe that I would rather read a post by BRR or Granberry than by someone who simply quotes Bert Sugar or Thomas Hauser. I disagree with BRR, and Granberry on some issues, including the merits of Holyfield and Holmes, but both of them know boxing. They know a lot more about boxing than what can be gleaned from listening to Bert Sugar or reading a Hauser book. Maybe one day I'll be able to say the same thing about you.

John Galt wrote: I disagree with BRR, and Granberry on some issues, including the merits of Holyfield and Holmes, but both of them know boxing. They know a lot more about boxing than what can be gleaned from listening to Bert Sugar or reading a Hauser book.

Do you agree with BRR that Foreman knocked Young down?

Who cares, Collins? All I want in the way of his take on Foreman-Young is a scorecard

I thought Young vs Foreman was pretty competitive. I am curious to
watch and score it myself.

Robinson wrote:I thought Young vs Foreman was pretty competitive. I am curious to
watch and score it myself.

It was an enjoyable fight, Kym. Even without the imaginary extra knockdown...

John Galt wrote:Buzzy,

Understand that I have not been inspired by anyone on a message board or by anyone who is regarded as an "expert" on boxing by you. This would include, but not be limited to, Sugar, Cosell, Merchant, Hauser, etc. My opinions are my own and they are not shaped by your "experts", or the popular view.

You are correct if you believe that I would rather read a post by BRR or Granberry than by someone who simply quotes Bert Sugar or Thomas Hauser. I disagree with BRR, and Granberry on some issues, including the merits of Holyfield and Holmes, but both of them know boxing. They know a lot more about boxing than what can be gleaned from listening to Bert Sugar or reading a Hauser book. Maybe one day I'll be able to say the same thing about you.

Me? I'm but a humble student who studies historical scrolls such as this, in order to further my edumacation. If Holmes and Holyfield be of limited skills, then I'm certain I'm on the path of enlightenment as I read what the unbiased observers (such as yourself) have to share with those who are here but to learn.

jameshoward wrote:if joe frazier wasn't pulled out before the last round in his 1975 brutal fight with ali and he went on to win on points or by KO how do you think this would've affected ali and fraziers careers and rankings in heavyweight history

The Ali brigade would have made 1000 excuses that rendered the victory invalid, irrelevant and never to be spoken about again.

Knucklez wrote:

jameshoward wrote:if joe frazier wasn't pulled out before the last round in his 1975 brutal fight with ali and he went on to win on points or by KO how do you think this would've affected ali and fraziers careers and rankings in heavyweight history

The Ali brigade would have made 1000 excuses that rendered the victory invalid, irrelevant and never to be spoken about again.

Yep, you're absolutely right.

To answer the original post, had Frazier won, he would be rated higher than he is now by most people; maybe as high as #2 behind only Louis. Ali would be lower. However, Ali won so that is that.

Now back to our regularly scheduled Ali bashing.

Ambling Alp wrote:To answer the original post, had Frazier won, he would be rated higher than he is now by most people; maybe as high as #2 behind only Louis. Ali would be lower. However, Ali won so that is that.

Now back to our regularly scheduled Ali bashing.

Perhaps the haters can do a "What if Richard Dunn had beaten Ali?" thread next week to fuel their wank fantasies.

Collins2000 wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:To answer the original post, had Frazier won, he would be rated higher than he is now by most people; maybe as high as #2 behind only Louis. Ali would be lower. However, Ali won so that is that.

Now back to our regularly scheduled Ali bashing.

Perhaps the haters can do a "What if Richard Dunn had beaten Ali?" thread next week to fuel their wank fantasies.

Mind if I substitute Jean Pierre Coopman for Richard Dunn?

yancey wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:To answer the original post, had Frazier won, he would be rated higher than he is now by most people; maybe as high as #2 behind only Louis. Ali would be lower. However, Ali won so that is that.

Now back to our regularly scheduled Ali bashing.

Perhaps the haters can do a "What if Richard Dunn had beaten Ali?" thread next week to fuel their wank fantasies.

Mind if I substitute Jean Pierre Coopman for Richard Dunn?

Why not? Both were fighting with the cuffs on and would have whipped that big mouth Cassius Clay had the fights been on the level.

Ambling Alp wrote:To answer the original post, had Frazier won, he would be rated higher than he is now by most people; maybe as high as #2 behind only Louis. Ali would be lower. However, Ali won so that is that.

Now back to our regularly scheduled Ali bashing.

The thread's originator in no way took aim at Ali in his opening post. Lighten up, Alp, old son.

I will relegate Ali to #2 on my achievements scale, just for shits & giggles, if I thinm you'll snap up the bait

The uppity big mouth Cassius Clay wouldn't have lasted 2 rounds with the great Joe Louis.

He was a fraud and at least 75% of his fights, including all his big 'wins' were rigged, to placate the nattering nabobs of negativety who are hell bent on destroying this great country of ours!

yancey wrote:What is Granberry's new handle?

He posts as SuperZelenoff, RussianPride and occasionally ThisModernLove.

Like his protege DaveV, he has several aliases to help spread the message.

The question that is not being asked and is perhaps more relevant is this. What if Joe would have been allowed to go out for the 15th round and Ali delivered irrevocable harm upon Joe. Would Ali have ever been forgiven for his transgressions?

BoxBuzz wrote:The question that is not being asked and is perhaps more relevant is this. What if Joe would have been allowed to go out for the 15th round and Ali delivered irrevocable harm upon Joe. Would Ali have ever been forgiven for his transgressions?

Ali wouldn't've gone out for the 15th. Neither fighter should have.