BoxRec

I have just read a book on the 2 fights between Louis and Schmeling. At one stage the author suggestes that when 1937 began, though Braddock was the champion, nobody really thought he could defeat Louis or Schmeling.

With hindsight (Schmelings rematch with Louis) the issue to me isn't as clear cut as it obviously appeared to be then. I'm not at all sure Schmeling would have beaten Braddock, who up to that point had never been knocked out and only dropped a couple of times I think.

Apologies if this one has been done to death in the past. I'm not sure I can split the 2 and wondered what others might think.

I simply can't imagine Jim Braddock beating Schmeling.

..right-o....i can't imagine him beating max baer either....

Louis aside, the 1930s champions had the pros and cons to
beat each other and make for some good series'. Even some
of the near champions had them abilities.

Louis, the Schmelling loss with standing, was just so much
better than the rest.

Schmeling would win a decision. Something like 10 rounds to 5. A good but not great fight.

hoodsyeahright wrote:I have just read a book on the 2 fights between Louis and Schmeling. At one stage the author suggestes that when 1937 began, though Braddock was the champion, nobody really thought he could defeat Louis or Schmeling.

With hindsight (Schmelings rematch with Louis) the issue to me isn't as clear cut as it obviously appeared to be then. I'm not at all sure Schmeling would have beaten Braddock, who up to that point had never been knocked out and only dropped a couple of times I think.

Apologies if this one has been done to death in the past. I'm not sure I can split the 2 and wondered what others might think.

I was pretty young (about 13) during this time frame, but I grew up in a family that was very full of boxing enthusiasts. If someone had asked me in 1937 who the world boxing champions were, I'm pretty sure I could have named them easily.

Anyway, my impression at that time wasn't so much that people thought Braddock had no chance with Schmeling, but that they thought Louis had a MUCH better chance of beating Schmeling than Braddock did. People in the area where I lived didn't want to see Jimmy risk the title against Max, with all the Nazi stuff going on in Germany. They didn't want Hitler to hold the belt hostage as another propaganda tool. Most thought Joe could beat Max in a rematch.

Personally, I think Schmeling would have beaten Braddock at that time, but I don't think it would have been an easy win for Max. When Jimmy was healthy and well fed, he could scrap.

From Braddock's point of view -- his body was breaking down and he knew he had probably one fight left in him -- win or lose. He wanted the most money for what figured to be his last fight. Braddock's management negotiated with both -- the fight with Louis was more lucrative so he took that.

Schmeling believed he would beat Braddock and Louis.
Braddock believed he could beat Louis and Schmeling
Louis believed he could beat Braddock and Schmeling -- and he did just that!

Braddock, after losing to Louis, won a decision over Tommy Farr, who would give Louis a hell of a time in the ring. I think a Schmeling/Braddock match up would have been very interesting, with Braddock being the aggressor, imo. I think it would go the full route. I think its too easy to say Braddock would lose to Max, but it would be a close fight.

Schmeling would have spanked Braddocks mediocre ass and Braddocks win over Farr was considered controversial at the time.

HomicideHenry wrote:Braddock, after losing to Louis, won a decision over Tommy Farr, who would give Louis a hell of a time in the ring. I think a Schmeling/Braddock match up would have been very interesting, with Braddock being the aggressor, imo. I think it would go the full route. I think its too easy to say Braddock would lose to Max, but it would be a close fight.

From the HLs of the rounds I've seen I have no idea how Braddock deserved the decision over Farr. Farr outpunched and outhustled Braddock pretty much the entire fight. Braddock came on a little the last two rounds but did not deserve the win.

Shouldn't be too much of a knock on Braddock, though. He was at the absolute ceiling of his career, & Farr was a handful for almost everyone he tackled.

I don't think Braddock defeating Schmeling is as far-fetched as most seem to think, but Schmeling was on Baer's level, minus the foolishness & lack of commitment to the sport. That makes it a tough slog for the incumbent. I like Schmeling on points --- maybe even a late stoppage --- but Braddock was game, capable, & always had that handy jab at his disposal. A close decision is not beyond him, even circa-1937. Schmeling was certainly past his best by that stage, too.

hoodsyeahright wrote: I'm not at all sure Schmeling would have beaten Braddock, who up to that point had never been knocked out and only dropped a couple of times I think.

Johnny Risko (only K.o.'d once and that by a low blow)
Young Stribling (not K.o.'d in over 200 Fights)
Mickey Walker (not easy to stop too)
Walter Neusel (never K.o.'d)
Steve Hamas (never K.o.'d)
Joe Louis (never K.o'd)
Harry Thomas (never K.o.'d)

....before they met Max Schmeling, who knocked them all out. And that were all world class or at least well known and high ranked fighters at the time they met the German. It seemed to be his speciality. I think Max would've knocked Braddock out sometime in the late rounds of the fight and regained his title.

True. On the other hand, Schemling lost to Hamas once, looked horrible in getting knocked out by louis, lost to Baer badly. Braddock was good enough to go 8 rounds with Louis after a long layoff, and beat Farr.
I would still pick Schemling, but it wouldn't be an easy fight and he probably wouldn't knock Braddock out.

Friedie wrote:

hoodsyeahright wrote: I'm not at all sure Schmeling would have beaten Braddock, who up to that point had never been knocked out and only dropped a couple of times I think.

Johnny Risko (only K.o.'d once and that by a low blow)
Young Stribling (not K.o.'d in over 200 Fights)
Mickey Walker (not easy to stop too)
Walter Neusel (never K.o.'d)
Steve Hamas (never K.o.'d)
Joe Louis (never K.o'd)
Harry Thomas (never K.o.'d)

....before they met Max Schmeling, who knocked them all out. And that were all world class or at least well known and high ranked fighters at the time they met the German. It seemed to be his speciality. I think Max would've knocked Braddock out sometime in the late rounds of the fight and regained his title.

There are some truth's therein.
Schmelling had a pretty accurate punching style, it would
have been a good one.

I would have liked to have seen Carnera vs Schmelling also
for the novelty of the Axis duel.

"Der Max" would have been fighting the real Jimmy Braddock, not Jimmy Braddock played by Russell Crowe.

The real Jimmy Braddock happened to fight Max Baer at the right time in his career and the wrong time in Baer's. My personal opinion has always been that Max would beat Jimmy nine time out of ten.

Max Schmeling should have taken out the real Jimmy Braddock inside ten rounds, and certainly by decision. Thank God they never fought, or the heavyweight championship would have been held propaganda hostage by Hilter and Groebels.

Friedie wrote: Johnny Risko (only K.o.'d once and that by a low blow)
Young Stribling (not K.o.'d in over 200 Fights)
Mickey Walker (not easy to stop too)
Walter Neusel (never K.o.'d)
Steve Hamas (never K.o.'d)
Joe Louis (never K.o'd)
Harry Thomas (never K.o.'d)

....before they met Max Schmeling, who knocked them all out. And that were all world class or at least well known and high ranked fighters at the time they met the German. It seemed to be his speciality. I think Max would've knocked Braddock out sometime in the late rounds of the fight and regained his title.

- Sweet breakdown Friedie. Young Max was heavily influenced by Dempsey and adopted some of his style.

Not sure what the full story was about the Sharkey foul, but that and being seen as a tool for German propaganda led many to dismiss him. When he beat Louis, he was an older, slower paced fighter using a cautious counter punching style with his experience to bait and slowly break Louis down.

The rematch can never be understood unless both fights and their build up are seen to give context. Louis and Max secured each other's legends with a great series.

raylawpc wrote:Thank God they never fought, or the heavyweight championship would have been held propaganda hostage by Hilter and Groebels.

Probably. But on the other hand Max Schmeling wrote in his "Erinnerungen", that his last goal in boxing at that point (1936/37) was to regain his title and then retire as Champion like Gene Tunney did. And I guess that then the vacant title would've been fought out in the U.S.A again.

Friedie wrote:

raylawpc wrote:Thank God they never fought, or the heavyweight championship would have been held propaganda hostage by Hilter and Groebels.

Probably. But on the other hand Max Schmeling wrote in his "Erinnerungen", that his last goal in boxing at that point (1936/37) was to regain his title and then retire as Champion like Gene Tunney did. And I guess that then the vacant title would've been fought out in the U.S.A again.

Do you honestly think that Hitler would have allowed Schmeling achieve that goal?

raylawpc wrote:

Friedie wrote:

raylawpc wrote:Thank God they never fought, or the heavyweight championship would have been held propaganda hostage by Hilter and Groebels.

Probably. But on the other hand Max Schmeling wrote in his "Erinnerungen", that his last goal in boxing at that point (1936/37) was to regain his title and then retire as Champion like Gene Tunney did. And I guess that then the vacant title would've been fought out in the U.S.A again.

Do you honestly think that Hitler would have allowed Schmeling achieve that goal?

Yes I do. Max insisted on not to fire his jewish manager Joe Jacobs too, wich was Hitlers wish. If Max would've retired there would be nothing Hitler could have done about it. He probably would have sent him on a suicide mission in the following war, what the Nazis did anyway.

Okay. Suit yourself.

raylawpc wrote:Okay. Suit yourself.

Hmmm. What do you want to say? I don't stand alone with my opinion I guess. Max was not a Nazi and if he wanted to retire from boxing in 1937 after recapturing the title I don't see someone to stop him, even not Hitler. The Nazis probably would've organized a fight for the "Championship" with Walter Neusel or Adolf Heuser against Tommy Farr or something like that, but I think the Americans wouldn't have cared about it and the NBA and New York Boxing Comission would have organized their own Championship fight by 1938 and with a result of Joe Louis as new Champion.

But please tell me what do you think would have happened?

Friedie wrote:

raylawpc wrote:Okay. Suit yourself.

Hmmm. What do you want to say? I don't stand alone with my opinion I guess. Max was not a Nazi and if he wanted to retire from boxing in 1937 after recapturing the title I don't see someone to stop him, even not Hitler. The Nazis probably would've organized a fight for the "Championship" with Walter Neusel or Adolf Heuser against Tommy Farr or something like that, but I think the Americans wouldn't have cared about it and the NBA and New York Boxing Comission would have organized their own Championship fight by 1938 and with a result of Joe Louis as new Champion.

But please tell me what do you think would have happened?

Okay, fair enough. Having written my honors thesis in college on Hitler, I think I know a bit how his mind would have worked. The only way Hitler would have permitted Schmeling to reitre is if he could have figured out how to use a retired German champion as a propaganda tool. Maybe he could have. I don't know.

Its more plausible to me that Hitler would have provided financial incentives for Schmeling to continue on as champion. I think Schmeling would have fought soft-touches in Germany and then, when war came, he would have assumed a role for the German army similar to that Louis had for real in the American army. (Remember, too, that war came earlier in Europe than for us in the United States. Poland's allies declared war on Germany after the Invasion of Poland in September 1939, so I doubt Schmeling, as champion, would have engaged in any title fights after that time.)

While it may be true that Schmeling was not a card-carrying member of the Nazi party, he certainly permitted himself to be used as Hitler's stooge on several occasions. (But which of us can say we would have done anything different in the same situation, under the same pressures Schmeling had to bear?)

Remember that we are not talking a long time-line here. Our original scenario suggests Schmeling fights Braddock in early 1937. That gives Schmeling a year to bask in the limelight as the first man to win the title twice, take a long exhibition tour, and then make a defense against some non-entity in 1938. By 1939, Europe is at war, and the title is on ice. Recall, too, that once-a-year title defenses were pretty much the norm in the 30s until Louis broke the mold.

I do not think the Americans would have permitted Hitler to put the title on ice. So I agree with you that eventually Louis would have won the American heavyweight champion, I just disagree in how he would have gotten there.

If you are correct and Hitler did permit Schmeling to retire, I do not think your scenario of a Germany-sponsored title fight would be too far off the mark.

...very interesting thoughts and I agree with you, that your scenario would have been like Hitler probably wanted it (I studied German History myself). But I read much about Max Schmeling too and I doubt, that he would play that game for two or three years (originally the the Braddock vs. Schmeling fight was planned for September 1936). From his character I think Schmeling was too smart to risk a second fight against Louis (with Schmeling as reigning Champion) but on the other hand he was too proud and fair minded to fight weak opposition instead for long but retire.

But we will never know what really would've happened I guess.