BoxRec

I rank Sonny in the top-10 HW's of all time, perhaps even higher! He was a great fighter. Skills were underrated imo!

What do you all think?

I rank the great Sonny Liston at #11 at heavyweight and #96 at all-time pound per pound.

He's in my top 10. I used to rate him a little higher, maybe even top 5.

Lower half of top 10 for me. Not much of a title reign but he cleaned out a deep division pre-Patterson defeating the likes of Machen, Folley, Williams, Valdez, DeJohn, Summerlin and Harris. Also possessed a pretty complete arsenal . .great jab and left hook, right hand, uppercuts, good stamina, solid headmovement/defense etc.

IMO, he was the greatest HW contender the sport ever seen. Not even Tyson or Foreman defeated the kind of men Liston did on their way up to the title. After losing the title, he had amazing longetivity, the man was considered a top contender up until Leotis Martin knocked him out, and Liston was in his 40's at that time.

I consider him among the elite HW's, but not among the elite HW champions. If that makes any sense at all.

dempseyfire wrote:Lower half of top 10 for me. Not much of a title reign but he cleaned out a deep division pre-Patterson defeating the likes of Machen, Folley, Williams, Valdez, DeJohn, Summerlin and Harris. Also possessed a pretty complete arsenal . .great jab and left hook, right hand, uppercuts, good stamina, solid headmovement/defense etc.

- That's funny seeing you mention Summerlin since you were in denial that Liston was in his physical prime and near his boxing prime when he beat Summerlin.

Clearly the rematch announced him as a top fringe contender at very least which is as close to near prime as you can get.

You are confusing me with someone else . . I don't recall ever discussing the Liston-Summerlin bouts.

Strong offerings from Dempsey & Henry.

I would also class Liston anywhere from six-through-ten, but he's clearly top-ten material. Probably rank him a little higher on head-to-head than accomplishment, but there's no room for debate that, his unremarkable title reign aside, he cleaned house in impressive fashion, & it was at a time which has since become under-rated for its talent depth, IMO.

Liston matches nicely, in my books, with nearly all the greatest Heavyweights head-to-head. I can't see a single opponent --- sans the Ali of '66-67, & possibly a peak Holmes --- beating him without anything short of a torrid night.

HomicideHenry wrote:After losing the title, he had amazing longetivity, the man was considered a top contender up until Leotis Martin knocked him out, and Liston was in his 40's at that time.

Actually, he fell out of the rankings after his second loss to Ali, and only worked his way back in maybe a year before he lost to Martin. He was never considered a top contender or major player in the division after he lost the title.

#9 for me:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Johnson
5. Foreman
6. Marciano
7. Frazier
8. Lewis
9. Liston
10. Dempsey
11. Holyfield
12. Tyson
13. Patterson
14. Wills
15. Charles
16. Langford
17. Schmeling
18. Jeffries
19. Norton
20. Walcott

I've tinkered with my list a bit lately and am always keen for feedback on how I can improve it - bottom half in particular.

elmersalsa wrote:I rank the great Sonny Liston at #11 at heavyweight and #96 at all-time pound per pound.

That sounds pretty reasonable. he is either just in the top 10 or just outside of it. With all of the weight classes, #96 is around where he should be.

I put Liston in the second tier of greats which would include Jeffries, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis and Holyfield (and a few others)...

If you match him against that group then it's hard to see many of them beating him.

I'd have Liston 8th. I'd say he is definitely top 12 or so.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman
4. Johnson
5. Marciano
6. Holmes
7. Frazier
8. Liston
9. Wills
10. Holyfield
11. Lewis
12. Charles
13. Langford
14. Dempsey
15. Schmeling

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Strong offerings from Dempsey & Henry.

I would also class Liston anywhere from six-through-ten, but he's clearly top-ten material. Probably rank him a little higher on head-to-head than accomplishment, but there's no room for debate that, his unremarkable title reign aside, he cleaned house in impressive fashion, & it was at a time which has since become under-rated for its talent depth, IMO.

Liston matches nicely, in my books, with nearly all the greatest Heavyweights head-to-head. I can't see a single opponent --- sans the Ali of '66-67, & possibly a peak Holmes --- beating him without anything short of a torrid night.

Very good summary of Sonny Liston's credentials Irene, although I think the peak Sonny would give Ali and Holmes a torrid time as well maybe losing close points decisions.

Thank you, Doctor (GI, if you don't mind ). To clarify, I don't see the '66-67 Ali (better than the early-64 model) having an easy time with Liston --- just to say I feel he wouldn't have to go through hell to win. I've little doubt a peak Liston's jab & other sterling attributes would make a fight with Ali competitive for large stretches (though not, I feel, for the full fifteen rounds).

Holmes might do a number on Liston, but I would consider it a fairly surprising upset if Liston bested Ali, peak-for-peak --- if, on the other hand, he knocked out a prime Holmes, I wouldn't be all that shocked.

I have always liked Sonny. I just can't find a spot for him on my top 10 heavyweight all-time list. I am currently redoing my rankings and adding a second 10. I doubt if Sonny will place high on that, but he will probably be there.

Djanders wrote:I have always liked Sonny. I just can't find a spot for him on my top 10 heavyweight all-time list. I am currently redoing my rankings and adding a second 10. I doubt if Sonny will place high on that, but he will probably be there.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I'd be interested to read that list. I have never had trouble finding room for Liston in my top ten.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Thank you, Doctor (GI, if you don't mind ). To clarify, I don't see the '66-67 Ali (better than the early-64 model) having an easy time with Liston --- just to say I feel he wouldn't have to go through hell to win. I've little doubt a peak Liston's jab & other sterling attributes would make a fight with Ali competitive for large stretches (though not, I feel, for the full fifteen rounds).

Holmes might do a number on Liston, but I would consider it a fairly surprising upset if Liston bested Ali, peak-for-peak --- if, on the other hand, he knocked out a prime Holmes, I wouldn't be all that shocked.

Agree with all this GI, except how do you see Holmes doing a number on Sonny?

Sonny was top 10

i just wonder how he would have been judged if he'd retired after the two floyds ????

dr_devious wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Thank you, Doctor (GI, if you don't mind ). To clarify, I don't see the '66-67 Ali (better than the early-64 model) having an easy time with Liston --- just to say I feel he wouldn't have to go through hell to win. I've little doubt a peak Liston's jab & other sterling attributes would make a fight with Ali competitive for large stretches (though not, I feel, for the full fifteen rounds).

Holmes might do a number on Liston, but I would consider it a fairly surprising upset if Liston bested Ali, peak-for-peak --- if, on the other hand, he knocked out a prime Holmes, I wouldn't be all that shocked.

Agree with all this GI, except how do you see Holmes doing a number on Sonny?

Have to (reluctantly) give Holmes his due --- he was a smart fighter, whose in-ring errors were pretty rare stuff. They did happen, but if a peak Liston doesn't switch you on, nothing will.

I think there's an outside chance Holmes never lets Liston compete at range (using greater speed to negate Liston's reach), jabs more frequently & wins that battle, & rides the ring, keeping Liston from getting set. It's style-advantage to Holmes, & he had the class to take full advantage.

If that happens, & Holmes wins that jab battle, as I said, there's an outside chance Holmes not only beats, but dominates, Liston. As for my likely prediction, I consider it near-even, with Liston early or Holmes late the picks of the day. Probably wouldn't go all fifteen.

Rocky Balboa wrote:I rank Sonny in the top-10 HW's of all time, perhaps even higher! He was a great fighter. Skills were underrated imo!

What do you all think?

That depends on whether you are judging him by his real fights or his two fixed ones with Ali.

In the real world he was one of the better heavyweight champions.

In talking to both Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey, it was obvous they considered the Ali -Liston 'fights' to be fakes.

But what did they know about boxing.

LOL

More holes in that statement of yours than I've seen in the finest swiss cheese! Do they come from the same factory?

buz' 'expertise' in the subject of "boxing" is ENTIRELY based on the following:

"If Thomas Hauser didn't say it, it isn't true."

You like Tommy boy? I gotta warn ya son, some of us are independent thinkers here and don't buy all his notions. In just about the same way that don't buy all the swiss cheese, baloney and swill you peddle. But later in your life when you become a more mature thinker you will come to embrace and appeciate this great truth.