BoxRec

Select 5 fighters who you give the best chance of beating Ali.

This doesn't mean you think they will beat him (but maybe you do). I'm asking who has the right traits and style to cause him the most problems.

Frazier and Norton gave Ali the biggest problems. Both tended to throw left hooks when others would jab. Cooper, an honest, but less than steallar fighter dropped Ali with a left hook. No surprises then that to get on my list you need a left hook.

I also think Young would have caused any version of Ali trouble because of his great defence. With this in mind my top 5...

Frazier
Dempsey
Walcott
Norton
Holyfield

Louis

Empirical evidence suggests Frazier and Norton would give peak Ali some problems.

Holmes

Holyfield

Interesting that we both picked Holyfield, ezzard.

(I posted mine before reading yours).

Collins2000 wrote:Interesting that we both picked Holyfield, ezzard.

(I posted mine before reading yours).

Well Holyfield on his game had the chin to go all the way. He had the left hook and good stamina. He could also move pretty well for an offensive come and find you guy.

I actually thought I might cop some flak for that one...

Ezzard wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:Interesting that we both picked Holyfield, ezzard.

(I posted mine before reading yours).

Well Holyfield on his game had the chin to go all the way. He had the left hook and good stamina. He could also move pretty well for an offensive come and find you guy.

I actually thought I might cop some flak for that one...

Me too. We shall see once the real "experts" arrive.

I also think Holyfield had the mental toughness to be able to ignore whatever 'angle' Ali chose to focus on in the lead up to the fight.

I disagree with Holyfield . . .when did he ever do well vs a real fast slick guy?

Ali on the other hand would find Evander fairly easy to land on.

Collins2000 wrote:

Ezzard wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:Interesting that we both picked Holyfield, ezzard.

(I posted mine before reading yours).

Well Holyfield on his game had the chin to go all the way. He had the left hook and good stamina. He could also move pretty well for an offensive come and find you guy.

I actually thought I might cop some flak for that one...

Me too. We shall see once the real "experts" arrive.

I also think Holyfield had the mental toughness to be able to ignore whatever 'angle' Ali chose to focus on in the lead up to the fight.

Good point. Holyfield was mentally very tough.

Agree that it'll be interesrting to see what people think.

I tried to word both of them so we wouldn't end up with the usual 'fan-bases' kicking off.

Ezzard wrote:Select 5 fighters who you give the best chance of beating Ali.

This doesn't mean you think they will beat him (but maybe you do). I'm asking who has the right traits and style to cause him the most problems.

- Seeing as Frazier beat the best version of Ali, should be plenty of names with chances.

Board misanthropes will read that as a cut against Ali, but they couldn't be more wrong. Anyone can be beat. He was undefeated with two tuneups against era contenders, controversy swirling around him like a maelstrom, in his element with all those celebs and big shots and people in his corner and never more motivated with more money to train and win what he saw as stolen from him, and he lost. His best moment was crawling off the deck in the 15th which was unbelievable given the shot he took as the post fight photos of his jaw prove.

Prior to his suspension he'd been a few tough fights, so since you make no time frame for the matchmaking, I'll pick ages 24 to 32 when he scored his biggest career win over Foreman. Prior to 24 against Liston he's immature and grossly unseasoned and just lucked into Liston at the opportunity of a lifetime. After Foreman he's in rapid decline.

Working back, these would have the best chance: Wlad, Vitali, Tyson, Louis, and Dempsey, the best versions in their full championship reigns. Of the five, I give Tyson the best chance, a guarantee he'd eat Alis' lunch. Terrible style and natural attributes matchup for Ali.

Frazier
Norton
Charles
Tunny
Holyfield

I won't go into the details on this one, I'll just post my thoughts at a glance...

Frazier
Louis
Holmes
Dempsey (my wildcard, I think many may argue)
Walcott (I see it, too, Ezz)

Have to contend Holyfield as a starter. I can't for the life of me see what he does which would give him even a 30% chance of getting home against Ali. He'd lose pretty handily, IMO.

Peak for Peak no doubt.

I would say..

Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier
Joe Louis
Evander Holyfield or Ken Norton (flip a coin as to which one we allow into the 5)

All these men possesed the style and talent
to trouble and beat Ali. But I could not see
the fight being easy, and Ali being Ali would
be a trouble to walk over at his best.

5 Good fights for me to watch and enjoy, and
some good series to be made.

Holmes
Frazier
Norton
Walcott
Tyson

Prime for prime, I'd put my money of Ali for all these fights, but not with any confidence (most confidence against Walcott and Tyson).

joe frazier
ken norton
jack johnson
joe louis
evander holyfield


maybe

Frazier
Holmes
V. Klitschko
Norton
Louis


I don't see any of them winning though

When you are fighting the best, often your best chance is to be unpredictable. Ali's chin was too good for a slugger to ko him; and when he was in his prime he was very difficult to hit. No fast boxer is going to give him a lot of trouble becasue he could what they did better.
Having a good left hook isn't going to help you much. Ali was knocked down a total of 2 times in 61 fights from left hooks. Both times he got up immedialey. Frazier fought 41 rounds with him and could only do it once. Frazier may have had the best left hook of anyone. Most of the time when he was able to land it nothing happened. Patterson had a very good left hook and it did him little good against Ali.

Holyfield could both box and go toe to toe, mixing it up in the same fight and sometimes the same round.. He had good handspeed, and was an accurrate puncher. On offense he would probably do the best. Holyfield din't have a good defense so Ali would have little trouble hitting him.
Nevertheless, he would proably have the best chance against a prime Ali.

Outside of Holyfield, Johnson, Dempsey,Tunney,Louis, and Holmes would do the best.

^

You really think that Holyfield would pose Ali more problems offensively than Louis?

Ambling Alp wrote:When you are fighting the best, often your best chance is to be unpredictable. Ali's chin was too good for a slugger to ko him; and when he was in his prime he was very difficult to hit. No fast boxer is going to give him a lot of trouble becasue he could what they did better.
Having a good left hook isn't going to help you much. Ali was knocked down a total of 2 times in 61 fights from left hooks. Both times he got up immedialey. Frazier fought 41 rounds with him and could only do it once. Frazier may have had the best left hook of anyone. Most of the time when he was able to land it nothing happened. Patterson had a very good left hook and it did him little good against Ali.

Holyfield could both box and go toe to toe, mixing it up in the same fight and sometimes the same round.. He had good handspeed, and was an accurrate puncher. On offense he would probably do the best. Holyfield din't have a good defense so Ali would have little trouble hitting him.
Nevertheless, he would proably have the best chance against a prime Ali.

Outside of Holyfield, Johnson, Dempsey,Tunney,Louis, and Holmes would do the best.

It's not just about the knockdowns... But it is significant that it was left hooks that put him down. Norton didn't manage to drop Ali but that left hook lead he often used definitely gave him problems throughout all three fights.

Having a left hook alone won't do it but it's a great starting place.

Ali looked best against sluggers and punchers like Liston and Foreman.

Holyfield, at least as a Heavyweight, is good at everything, & very good at most things --- he is genuinely great at very little. Something of a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none (not quite, but along those lines).

Honestly, to each his own, but since we all agree Holyfield is never stopping Ali or knocking him out, I can't for the life of me envision him stealing eight or more rounds over fifteen (a distance the Heavyweight Holyfield would undoubtedly have struggled with, as he tired over twelve more than once).

IMO it is simply not fair to remind all Holyfield shortcomings, at the same time forgetting quite a few Ali fights when he struggled with less than stellar competition.

Apart from Frazier loss (which is OK), he couldn't win convincingly against Norton (two times of free), he strugled with otherwise not so great Lyle, his win over Young was close at best, and, of course, going down against Cooper does not make him look any better.

If those opponents were able to win with Ali or at least gave him competitive fight, I would give Holyfield good chance to do the same. Of course, winning a fight against Ali and getting the decision were two different things but this was discussed some days ago. Probabably I am asking for trouble, but I do not think it would be impossible if Holy hurts or knocks down Ali during the fight.

IMO.

The best would be:

Tyson
Louis
Norton
Frazier
Holmes.

Though i see them all losing really

gregor wrote:IMO it is simply not fair to remind all Holyfield shortcomings, at the same time forgetting quite a few Ali fights when he struggled with less than stellar competition.

Apart from Frazier loss (which is OK), he couldn't win convincingly against Norton (two times of free), he strugled with otherwise not so great Lyle, his win over Young was close at best, and, of course, going down against Cooper does not make him look any better.

If those opponents were able to win with Ali or at least gave him competitive fight, I would give Holyfield good chance to do the same. Of course, winning a fight against Ali and getting the decision were two different things but this was discussed some days ago. Probabably I am asking for trouble, but I do not think it would be impossible if Holy hurts or knocks down Ali during the fight.

Yes, all that's true of Ali. At the same time...

A) Holyfield was completely humiliated by James Toney.

B) He was hopelessly beaten by Chris Byrd & Larry Donald.

C) He went 1-1-1 with the lacklustre John Ruiz.

D) He lost to the unremarkable Sultan Ibragimov.

Do you see a pattern to my response, mate?

GI wrote:
"Yes, all that's true of Ali. At the same time...

A) Holyfield was completely humiliated by James Toney.

B) He was hopelessly beaten by Chris Byrd & Larry Donald.

C) He went 1-1-1 with the lacklustre John Ruiz.

D) He lost to the unremarkable Sultan Ibragimov.

Do you see a pattern to my response, mate?"


Holyfield was a boxer who relied on quickness, reflexes, and energy. He was not a big, strong heavyweight who could over power opponents. He was at least 38 years old when he lost to anyone other than Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe (1-2), and Michael Moorer (1-1). Few would consider Holyfield to be in his prime when he lost to any of the boxers you mentioned.

I suppose we can give the Ali arguments the benefit of the
doubt saying Ali was past it when he struggled with Young,
Spinks, Norton, Lyle and Shavers...

And both men had their Cooper's. In their primes.

Both had different careers. To watch Holyfield and not take
away any appreciation for technique and fundamentals that
he displayed. You can not say this about Ali however, his
biggest flaw was that his technique was always secondary
to other attributes that made him great...things like reflexes,
powers of recovery and conditioning..and even speed...things
that failed him in his 30s to a degree.

I think Holyfields style and fundamentals would be the telling
factor vs Ali. Its a hard one to call. But you can in my opinion
make a good case for either man. I like Holy's chances though.

John Galt wrote:GI wrote:
"Yes, all that's true of Ali. At the same time...

A) Holyfield was completely humiliated by James Toney.

B) He was hopelessly beaten by Chris Byrd & Larry Donald.

C) He went 1-1-1 with the lacklustre John Ruiz.

D) He lost to the unremarkable Sultan Ibragimov.

Do you see a pattern to my response, mate?"


Holyfield was a boxer who relied on quickness, reflexes, and energy. He was not a big, strong heavyweight who could over power opponents. He was at least 38 years old when he lost to anyone other than Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe (1-2), and Michael Moorer (1-1). Few would consider Holyfield to be in his prime when he lost to any of the boxers you mentioned.

John, you are as dense as your phonebooks' worth of forum aliases. I know my point sailed well over your head, but, then, it wasn't intended for your arms.

"Do you see a pattern to my response, mate?"

Read Gregor's post, then mine, then linger over my final statement. It's like one of those pictures-within-a-picture. Stare at it long enough, & your brain may whirr into gear & you'll get it. Hell of a, "may," mind, but give it a shot.