BoxRec

Upon reading the thread entitled, "Was Muhammed Ali overrated" I would like to give my humble opinion. This thread is about how both Louis AND Ali had great hitting ability but sometimes didn't use it well.

Much has been said against Ali's slapping. It's true that sometimes he slapped instead of hooking, especially in the Frazier fights when Frazier was ducked low.
But this is taking away from the fact that Ali COULD punch. And punch straight and powerful. He did this a lot of the time.

And I have observed watching the tapes that he punched faster than Louis or Patterson.

Watching slow-motion of the so-called 'phantom punch' against Liston I have come to believe it was NOT a phantom punch. Liston decided to stay down even though he could get up, but he was dropped legitimately.

The punch WAS powerful enough, he got his full waist, hips and shoulder into it. Look at for proof. Just because it hit his temple doesn't mean it didn't drop him legitimately.

In Mike Tyson's fight with Larry Holmes, Holmes was twice dropped by single punches to the temple. I know the power was different, but if the temple is never a good target then I suppose these were phantom punches too.

However it is also true that he often DID slap.

BROWN BOMBER
Now what about Joe Louis? Well, if you look at his fight videos you'll see he is very often guilty of half-hearted punching himself.

With right "hooks" he sometimes hits opponents in a downward slaplike motion.

What sets it apart from an actual slap is that he moves his body into it and has his fist clenched. This makes a world of difference but it's still not a proper hook.

With "straight" rights he very often hit people in a rolling motion. It's very hard to explain but basically he hit like a hammer, rolling his fist in a kind of circle motion while getting his shoulder into it.
Very unprofessional. Compared to Rocky Marciano's punches he was powder-puff punching.

In many cases, while he punched very fast it took him literally dozens of clean punches square on the jaw to drop opponents. I read a while back that in the second Schmeling fight it took him over 40 clean punches to KO him.

But it is also true that sometimes the bomber punched exactly right with perfectly straight punches and perfectly pure hooks.

When I get a webpage up I will post shots of Louis's slaplike hooks and Ali's perfect rights.

It also took Ali many punches to KO an opponent sometimes.

In conclusion, both had tremendous hitting ability but sometimes, so as not to telegraph, both slapped sometimes.

If you disagree with me that's fine, but in my opinion my claims are backed up.

Ali did have power, if he didn.t when he threw those straight rights his opponents wouldn't have backed off like they did.

I believe the arguement against him was that he didn't have the knockout power to floor anyone with 1 punch. Sure, after clobbering a guy in the face round after round, he could drop a guy with 1 right hand, but it never happened early.

Yes, he actually did hit Liston in the second fight, but it WAS NOT strong enough to knock him out.

Although terap can be a little crazy at times, he did give excellent post fight interviews and other evidence from after the fight that proved Liston took a dive. Even Ali admitted after the fight to Dundee that he knew something was fishy.

Plus, if you look back at previous fights Liston had, you'll notice that he had been punched in the jaw, temple, back of the head, everywhere. And these were by guys much stronger than Ali. I forget which fight was mentioned where he got caught in the temple by a similar punch and laughed it off. terap might know.

Aside from the Liston fight, I agree with the rest of your topic.

first, welcome to the post, mr. lopman. I see terap has already introduced himself. Now it's my turn.


Re:Joe Louis...what we have here is an example of why eye witness testimony is not highly regarded by lawyers and other interesred parties. If thirteen people see a car wreck or an assault of some kind, you will get at least six differerent versions of what happened.

When you look at Joe Louis' right hand punches, you see unprofessional slaps. When I, (and so many others, but I'll just speak for myself) look at those same right hands, I see what were probably the most effective in heavyweight history. Where you see slaps..i see.. short punches...sometimes around six or eight inches...landed with devastating power and accuracy. perfection...well beyond mere professionalism. If there can be an art form in violence, you see it here. He did land a lot of punches before his man went down sometimes...but that often was because he threw them so fast.....the first one had the guy out or damn near..and he could throw his combos so hard and so fast that they landed while the opponent was falling.

He was capable of the one punch knockout too. Paulino Uzcudan had a peculiar defense....kept his chin, which waas concrete , tucked under his shoulders and forearms. As his trainer, Ray Arcel described it (paraphrased)..."Louis just pecked away with his jab. finally Pauilino got curious and stuck his head up from his shell. One right hand was all it took...down and out and when I took his mouthpiece out, his front teeth were in it.

Look at terap's rundown of his record.

To this I will add....while some fighters got up from a knockdown...no challenger...ever...went on to even go the distance after they had suffered a knockdown by him.

When Ali still had speed on his punches, his straight right was pretty good...best example is in the second Quarry fight..and it knocked Zora Folley out..although when Folley's mouthpiece was taken out I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it was filled with glass.

If I had the choice, I'd take Ali's straight rights to my chin any day instead of Joe Louis's "slaps."

Ali could punch pretty good when he came off his toes,
but he should not be comparred to Louis as a pure
puncher.

Comparing Louis and Ali is like Comparing Lewis and Oquendo.

Hey I've got a few problems with the man, too.

First of all, I'm sick of these experts saying he's an original. His 'shuffle', his hands-dangling stance, his dancing, it had all been done before by many other people. It sickens me that whenever anyone uses a similar style they think he is echoing Muhammed Ali.

But one thing that is UNDERRATED is his power. He had devastating hitting ability.

Hey my site has a shot of his slaplike hooks from the Illustrated History of Boxing.

Hey Jaclem, I said that SOMETIMES he used these. For example when he had no room to do it properly without telegraphing. But so did Ali, only sometimes.

Jersey Joe Walcott. for one, did a lot of moves that Ali did long before Ali even came along. the hands down were almost his trademark as well as that quick short move to his right, and then a counter right over the opponents left.

As for the Ali shuffle...take a look at the last round of Louis Walcott II and you'll see Walcott go into it, in an attempt to make Louis lead. Unfortunatley, the man from Camden succeded , much to his distress. It was the mistake the Bomber was waiting for, as he catches Walcott in mid-step, with the first punch of the barrage that kayoed Jersey Joe. As Louis's reflexes were nowhere near they were in his prime, it causes wonder as to what would happen to Ali if he did his little shuffle, as he did against Cleveland Williams, for example, against prime Louis.

My guess? TIMBERRRR.

I enjoy showing Walcott in action to people who never saw him. invariably they express surprise at seeing things they thought Ali invented.

Ali's power is not underrated, it is right on.

A 10 year anniversary example of the ol style typical boxrec forum conversation of years past.

Notice how folks disagree, and yet, somehow, do not feel the need to behave in an overly disagreeable fashion?


Ahh....the good ol days. Over 300 folks read it....simply read it.....and found no reason to take potshots at others for speaking their mind.

BoxBuzz wrote:A 10 year anniversary example of the ol style typical boxrec forum conversation of years past.

Notice how folks disagree, and yet, somehow, do not feel the need to behave in an overly disagreeable fashion?


Ahh....the good ol days. Over 300 folks read it....simply read it.....and found no reason to take potshots at others for speaking their mind.

Ahh...the Ali shills.

Jaclem wrote:When I, (and so many others, but I'll just speak for myself) look at those same right hands, I see what were probably the most effective in heavyweight history. Where you see slaps..i see.. short punches...sometimes around six or eight inches...landed with devastating power and accuracy. perfection...well beyond mere professionalism. If there can be an art form in violence, you see it here.

i completely agree. louis was amazing. but i think
one really must cherish some of these short punches.
a long straight right is spectacular for any viewer, a
short traveling maybe only for enthusiasts.

comparing the two in general seems difficult. louis had
IMO more confidence in his shere power that he would
get flat footed and look for the opening at any time,
while ali knew he needed more preparation work to
do before coming to a possible knock out opportunity.

i think louis ranks top three best puncher in heavy weight
history, while ali at best scratches top ten. but of course
he "offset" this by being the best mover, the very best
tactician and the very, very best absorber of punishment.

i think this analysis takes nothing away from either man.
both fantastic ATGs, needless to say. a matchup prime
for prime would be among the best boxing matches
imaginable. very difficult to say who has the edge. at
this level you just don't know who can handle the strength
of the other guy better. my guess is if it goes the distance
ali wins, but if he gets hit as often and clean as against frazier
he gets knocked out.

Lopman wrote:The punch WAS powerful enough, he got his full waist, hips and shoulder into it.

no, he didn't. just didn't. it was a short arm punch,
but liston was still off balance from the jab that
didn't reach far enough. yet ali definitely did not
put waist and hips behind this - with his feet half
in the air from the backstep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFA3DFFavwk

but the punch was a real punch and no phantom.
see at sec 15 how liston's head slightly slapped
back at impact, so he was hit and being off balance
it was an absolutely legit and no faked knock down.
what happens afterwards is a different story.

I am a head injury specialist....I can tell you from carefully watching the film that it is highly likely that "the phantom punch" stung, and profoundly discombobulated Liston. Maybe even in a way that he had not experienced prior. Everything you see could be and is likely real in terms of his reaction. However the steam seemed to just leave him once he began to return to his senses. I agree with what man is saying. Liston made a decision very quickly in the wake of that discombobulation. And it was that he did not have the heart to go out and test himself further against this opponent.

So nothing fake took place IMHO, but certainly a man who was no longer "game" took something away from what "might have been".

Not that I think Liston was going to win the fight, but I do think it could have been a classic. And had Liston turned in his top work, who knows if Ali would have been the same fighter after being truly tested by Liston at his best.

But that's the way the cookie crumbled on that night.

BoxBuzz wrote:A 10 year anniversary example of the ol style typical boxrec forum conversation of years past.

Notice how folks disagree, and yet, somehow, do not feel the need to behave in an overly disagreeable fashion?


Ahh....the good ol days. Over 300 folks read it....simply read it.....and found no reason to take potshots at others for speaking their mind.

You trying to stir up trouble again, Buzz?

They already got enough of that in The Greatest Thread of All Time!

It took a long time to turn to sh1t, but turn to sh1t it has.

Surely you mean "compo$t".

BoxBuzz wrote:I am a head injury specialist....I can tell you from carefully watching the film that it is highly likely that "the phantom punch" stung, and profoundly discombobulated Liston. Maybe even in a way that he had not experienced prior. Everything you see could be and is likely real in terms of his reaction. However the steam seemed to just leave him once he began to return to his senses. I agree with what man is saying. Liston made a decision very quickly in the wake of that discombobulation. And it was that he did not have the heart to go out and test himself further against this opponent.

So nothing fake took place IMHO, but certainly a man who was no longer "game" took something away from what "might have been".

Not that I think Liston was going to win the fight, but I do think it could have been a classic. And had Liston turned in his top work, who knows if Ali would have been the same fighter after being truly tested by Liston at his best.

But that's the way the cookie crumbled on that night.

I go with Jimmy Cannon. He was near ringside, saw the "punch", and said it "couldn't have crushed a grape."

Didn't he steal that line from Sugar who used those words to describe Primo Carnera's power?


Yancey, take a serious look at the frame by frame......the shot (delivered from proper stance or not) caused the type of cranial shudder that if delivered on the button honestly can have an inordinate amount of discombobulating affect. I'm not kidding here. So the physics are sound.

Now it could have been just the sort of "start" to the fight that could have caused a psyche compromised Liston to throw in the proverbial towel on a gut check basis.

I believe it is this....and no other fear, or threat or conspiracy that took place on that day, that brought about that moment. Liston's cookies just crumbled. It's not all that terribly unusual in boxing when a boxer loses his sense of invincibility or confidence.

BoxBuzz wrote:Didn't he steal that line from Sugar who used those words to describe Primo Carnera's power?


Yancey, take a serious look at the frame by frame......the shot (delivered from proper stance or not) caused the type of cranial shudder that if delivered on the button honestly can have an inordinate amount of discombobulating affect. I'm not kidding here. So the physics are sound.

Now it could have been just the sort of "start" to the fight that could have caused a psyche compromised Liston to throw in the proverbial towel on a gut check basis.

I believe it is this....and no other fear, or threat or conspiracy that took place on that day, that brought about that moment. Liston's cookies just crumbled. It's not all that terribly unusual in boxing when a boxer loses his sense of invincibility or confidence.

"no other fear, or threat", eh?

I think what went down with Malcolm X just a few months before Lewiston, who did it, and past threats to Sonny may be a bit contradictory to your thesis.

What's next, a comparison of the power of Hearns & mayweather?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:What's next, a comparison of the power of Hearns & mayweather?

Nah, but we need an in-depth analysis of the unique torquing action and advanced karate chop aspects of Ali's right hand in Lewiston.

(Wish I still had that 1965 Boxing Magazine that advanced that theory. )

yancey...you may be right.....the truth could well be "out there"


I would think it was something as boring as someone's own decision for which he alone would be accountable .....combined with some rather documented and assessable physics. But, I admit, the idea of some good ol' drama is always far more magnetic.

Buzz, let them enjoy their fantasies.

They don't have much else to keep them warm on those cold winter nights.